Something to think about.

[Jerry Smith]

Originally posted by DARRIONS
Ashibaka-If it's fact, then why are there missing peices to the Thories? For something to be defined as fact, it must be proven. There is not one complete theory of evolution without missing pieces. Interestingly enough, there are more scientific facts that prove creation than evolution.

Well, that's what this debate is supposed to be about in this forum. Obviously, most scientists would disagree with your statement. I think they have very good reasons.

 

[CJF]

chickenman-you mean, go learn more about evolution and be deceived? That's all that evolution is.

 

[chickenman]

no, if god did not want us to use our brains to inquire about the world around us, why did he give them to us? I didn't have a position on creation/evolution until I started studying it at university - then I saw the overwhelming evidence for evolution. At least learn more about evolution - there can be no harm in that surely?

 

[ashibaka]

OK, Darrions, I'm going to give you once last chance.

You think the majority of scientists are deceived by evolution; I think you're being deceived by Creationist propaganda. However, I am attempting to refute your arguments without referencing Creationism, while all you're doing is ranting on about how evolution is a deception without attempting to answer any of my arguments. If you continue with this, you will learn nothing from this debate, and I thus think it futile to go on. However, if you want to forget about evolution being evil for just a minute and look at it subjectively, feel free.

 

[CJF]

Okay, fine. Why don't you tell me what evolution is.

 

[EspressoDuck]

What about my questions! I wasn't ranting! I'm willing to listen! I want to hear your side, to see why you guys think the way you do.

 

[Jerry Smith]

Originally posted by CelandineBaggins
What about my questions! I wasn't ranting! I'm willing to listen! I want to hear your side, to see why you guys think the way you do.

I'm glad you are willing to listen. I'm sorry, I have lost track of which questions were yours and which haven't been answered yet.. If you will post a question, I will answer it this evening (to the best of my ability).. I will have to log off for a while right now, but I will be back on later this afternoon..

I'll check back to see your question!
Jerry

 

[CJF]

Here is a question you can answer: What is evolution? (please answer in specifics)

 

[EspressoDuck]

DARRIONS, I think you are being a little rude. They are at least kind enough to listen to your ideas, please at leat just listen to them! If nothing else it's good web etiquette. I want to hear what they have to say, not because I am going to convert or something, but because I want to see why they think they are right. They listened to my temper tantrum, I am repaying their favor by listening to them.

 

[EspressoDuck]

Here is a question to answer-Why do you think God didn't make us humans from the start? Why do you think he would confuse us with complex evolution. It's hard for me to accept.

 

[ashibaka]

Evolution is a scientific theory, currently supported by genetics and the fossil record. The major conclusion of evolution is that genetic mutation occurs over time (for example, people have been getting taller over the centuries), and in a hostile environment, like during a drought or in the Arctic, the animals that do the best job of surviving are the only survivors. Evolutionary theory says that everyone on Earth has, somewhere up the line, a common ancestor -- an early cell or a bacteria, maybe put there by God or maybe created by chance (nobody knows), millions of years ago.

Evolution is completely compatible with Christianity except for the very opening of Genesis. However, if you really start to study the Bible, you'll find that it isn't perfect; perhaps the ancient Hebrews decided to write in an explanation for the creation of the world when God had given them none.

I'm not very good at explaining things: there's a more lengthy explanation here if you want to read it.

[edited: Sorry, bad link!]

 

[CJF]

You know what? They haven't been helping me. Maybe they've been trying, but I haven't gotten anything from them. I HAVE been listening to them, or at least I have been trying. And I don't really give a rip if I seem a little rude. I want to get my point across, just like they do. I came on here to try and help you Celandine, and you blow me off. I have been trying to understand what they are saying, and I've tried to listen. Now, I am trying to get my point across. And I really don't care if I get kicked off of this MB, I'll be rude if I have to.

 

[ashibaka]

You've certainly got your point across; I've debated evolution for a while, and I've heard the "evolution is a hoax, God is the supreme authority" argument many times. However, if you're going to accept what the Bible has always said over what we've studied and concluded, there is absolutely nothing I can do to convince you that evolution is a scientific fact.

It seems you hold that stance, in which case I bid you good luck, because, strangely enough, not everyone thinks the Bible is a perfect book.

 

[CJF]

I know not everyone thinks the Bible is a perfect book. I do, however beleive it's it's perfect. Because, God is perfect, and God ave the words to certain people to write his book. So therefore the Bible is perfect. But, if you've placed your stance in evolution I can't force you to change.


Celandine-I do beleive I owe you an apology. It's just hard to know, that you do something for a friend and they hate for it. I mean, the only reason I even came onto the subject was to help you out. Obviously you don't want my help. So I'll back off.

 

[ashibaka]

OK, then. If you think the Bible is perfect, I will no longer debate you, because nowhere in the Bible is evolution supported. Agreed? (Note, however, that you will convert nobody to Creationism with your argument. )

 

[CJF]

I'm not trying to convert anybody. I only wanted to make it clear, that I want no part in evolution.

 

[Jerry Smith]

Originally posted by CelandineBaggins
Here is a question to answer-Why do you think God didn't make us humans from the start? Why do you think he would confuse us with complex evolution. It's hard for me to accept.

Celandine, Darrions, I would like to answer both your questions.

Celandine, I would like to answer yours first:

I don't know. If God chose to make us a certain way, then that is His choice to make, and probably only He knows the reasons for it. I have seen where it was speculated that by determining a set of phyiscal laws and providing certain initial conditions, God was able to create a Universe where his creations could have free will, and any other way would have meant that He had to interfere too much for them to be able to have free-will--- but that is only speculation. No human can know the answer to that question for sure.

Darrions, your question is: What is evolution? I am going to start a thread to discuss this tonight. I hope that you and Celandine (and also ashibaka) join me there for that discussion. Ashibaka - the fact that humans have gotten taller over time really isn't evolution, because the changes that have caused that (better nutrition mainly) were not heritable ones, but other than that you were pretty close on target. In the new thread, I will discuss the observations (or facts) of evolution, and also the theory of evolution. It will probably take me a few hours to get it together for you, so please be patient.

 

[wildernesse]

Hello, Hello all!

Celadine and Darrions, I really want to salute you for being so patient and asking some good questions on this thread. It's very difficult to listen for a while about something that you really and truly think is a deception and something that will pull you away from your faith. I encourage you to learn all you can about both sides of any issue--then you will best understand what is right and why you believe it to be right.

I am a Christian, and I accept evolution as part of the scientific explanation of how the biological creation came to be as we experience it today. Evolution simply states that groups of individuals change over time (for sort of complex reasons) and that after a while, the groups of individuals can be very different from what they were before. Evolution is not about how the universe formed, or even about how life began--it's about what happened once life appeared.

I believe that God created the life that began to evolve, and that His hand is at work in the world today and in my life. Do I believe that the Bible is untrue? No!! I believe that the Bible is God's message to us about why we are the way we are and how to reconcile ourselves with Him and His perfect plan.

You both ask good questions, and I hope that you never stop! Now if they're the same questions over and over. . . Science (including evolution) isn't trying to convert anyone--it just is trying to explain the natural world through natural processes.

Til next time,
tiba

 

[Annabel Lee]

Welcome to Christian Forums, wildernesse.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Hi all, I just got back from dinner and am surprised how much this thread has blossomed.

Darrions,

Rufus, when the Bible says, "The four corners of the earth," it's refering to the North, South, East and West, not the earths four corners.

Yes, but at one point in history people actually thought north, south, east, and west were corners. We now understand that they are directions and the world doesn’t have corners. Likewise, the same is true from the origins of mankind. We one thought that we must have been literally sculpted by divine hands. We now understand that the origin of mankind is a more complicated and lengthy process involving descent with modification.

And Rufus, if it's not hard to be convinced that science is wrong, because we haven't been more exposed to it yet, then wouldn't it be JUST as easy for YOU to be convinced that the BIBLE is wrong because you haven't been more exposed to THAT yet?

I’ve never said that the Bible is wrong. I’m just trying to make you realize that your interpretation of the bible is not the only Christian one. Plenty of Christians accept both evolution and the God’s gifts. I’m trying my best to expose you to their opinions as I understand them. This needs to be done before we get much into the science part because it is potentially harmful to try to teach you about this, if you feel that science will adversely affect you.

I don't beleive in evolution, I beleive in the one true God, who sent His Son to die for us. The Son is Jesus Christ. I beleive In Jesus, and always will. Nothing is going to change my mind about it. Because I know, that when I die, I will go to heaven. And that's through Jesus Christ, God's Son.

I have no problem with you having faith in God, Jesus, and salvation. However, such faith doesn’t require that you reject evolution. That’s the point of this discussion. Evolution and salvation are not mutually exclusive terms.

I'm not going to accept something that isn't true. I already know that I have the right answer, and I'm not going t settle for second best. God already sent the best thing, and I am only settleing for best. I don't want to accept evolution, and I'm not going to.

Why are you so afraid to hear about simple biology? Maybe after you understand a little more about what evolution is and isn’t you will realize that we aren’t trying to change God’s place in your life. However, I can understand if you feel threatened and don’t want to continue. I will always be here to answer your questions.

So you're saying that monkeys turning into humans is a scientific fact?

In a way--yes. It is a scientific fact that humans and monkeys share a common ancestor that we would probably consider to be more monkey-like than human-like. There is over a hundred years worth of scientific exploration and discovery supports this.

That goes against EVERYTHING the Bible says, and when something goes against what the Bible syas, I don't beleive it. That doesn;t mean, I'm not oign to study animals and such, but all that monkey's turning into humans stuff is wrong, and I REFUSE to be deceived by it.

How do you know that evolution goes against what the Bible says? You yourself admit that you don’t know much about it and don’t want to. If you don’t know what it is, how do you know that it conflicts with your faith? Plenty of Christians feel that evolution doesn’t conflict with their faith.

Yes, Rufus. I do beleive Revelations explains how the world will end.

But do you believe that it is a literal description? Do you believe that a woman with a great beast will actually come from the depths of the abyss as Rev. 17:8 states? Or do you believe that it is symbolic of something else? If you believe that this is symbolic, why can’t you consider that Genesis might not be literal description too?

And Rufus, it is only fare to say that any professor teaching evolution-believes it to be true or at least highly probalble. Wouldn't it be just as fare to say that these same teachers of evolution do not beleive the Bible to be truth? If so, how can you justify your perspective of God's word being correct?

That is not fair. Plenty of scientists (my boss included) study evolution and are Christians. Dr. Kenneth Miller of Brown University, one of the most vocal and public advocates for evolution, is a very Evangelical Christian and has written extensively on evolution and Christian faith.