Something About Mary

[Root of Jesse]

Romans 3:23
For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

So Jesus, then sinned? Obviously, not. So ALL doesn't mean every one. "All have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. "All have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. Infants, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], and the senile cannot sin. Lastly, the Greek word for "all", pantes, is used many times, when it doesn't mean "every one".

 

[sunlover1]

And brother doesn't always mean brother either (Matthew 12:46, Galatians 1:19).

Just saying.

And all three of those are about Mary.

So...St. Paul meant All mortals have sinned? Because that isnt what he wrote...now you are applying apologetic gymnastics to fit your theological stance...

No, I'm applying logic.
Obviously God never sinned.
So who does that leave for "ALL have sinned?

 

[Defensor Christi]

No, I'm applying logic.
Obviously God never sinned.
So who does that leave for "ALL have sinned?

In your zeal to do so, you forget about the hypostatic union...Jesus is 100% AND 100% man...

Hypostatic union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Thekla]

And until doesn't mean until either,
(matt 1:25)
just sayin'

Nah, ews just means ... ews

 

[Root of Jesse]

It's important for you to allow God to be God. God can do anything God wants. He was born from a virgin, without normal human sexuality. Therefore, we believe God preseved the vessel he used to become incarnate from ever experiencing sin, and preserved her from bodily decay at the end of her life. It's very logical.

 

[Thekla]

And brother doesn't always mean brother either (Matthew 12:46, Galatians 1:19).

Just saying.

Brother means what brother means; adelphos has many meanings in the Greek and in the Holy Scriptures (written in Greek)

 

[Albion]

It is quite obvious that saying "All men...." in this case means all of mankind. We do not have to argue over the possibility that women weren't included or that Jesus was or was not included. The statement is not a legal contract; it is a statement that any of us could make.

We often speak of a situation that is all encompassing, and say "all of us" or "all people," etc. without meaning that we are guaranteeing absolutely that there cannot possibly be even one unusual exception living in a coma or a jungle somewhere who doesn't fit.

All men are born in sin. That's the human condition. If you have a new baby, there is no reason to doubt that, at birth, he was estranged by nature from God. We all are.

 

[sunlover1]

...Are you saying it isnt possible for God to make someone sinless?

With God all things are possible.

When it says "ALL" have sinned, what does it mean?

 

[Defensor Christi]

When it says "ALL" have sinned, what does it mean?

You tell me...obviously, it cannot be an all inclusive statement, or he also meant the Lord.

 

[Albion]

Are you saying it isnt possible for God to make someone sinless?

THAT has never been the issue here. It's what he actually DID.

 

[Albion]

Um. But I actually looked into the Catechism after she told me that? And I also asked a priest about it? I didn't simply take her at her word?

So....you took the word of OTHER Catholics? Of course, they are also going to give the reply that has been rehearsed for such inquiries.

Ah, I wasn't trying to get into the middle of anything. I just wanted to share what I had learned.

I understand. And I was just offering a word of caution. I agree that there's no need for this to go further.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

The issue is, you are implicitly arguing a Fallacy of False Equivalence by bringing it up against someone's argument that argues for Saintly veneration and petitioning.



Please look up what the word "prayer" means: Pray - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

In orthodox Christianity, which is practiced by the majority of Christians (Vatican Catholics, Anglicans, etc), when we say "prayer", "pray", etc, when it comes to Saints, we're using the transitive, whereas many Protestants forget is a part of the very word. They instead think of it only in the intransitive, 2nd definition that is given.

Yet as we can see, the word is more complex than that.



Straw Man. The biologically deceased are not dead in the same sense, and the Christian religion, based on what the Bible reads, is founded on that. As I said earlier, "God is a God of the living and not the dead, that means the Saints, the righteous souls, and the Heavenly Host can pray for us and we for them."



So God fails then for the biologically deceased because they are biologically dead? So much for a God of Life...that's entirely contrary to what t
he Holy Writ teaches us and what Christianity has taught for two thousand years.



Non-Argument and Straw Man. Please reread what I said.

My first reaction to your post is always refute because I hardly agree with anything you reply to me but before I do that, it would be wrong of me if I don't at least consider what it is that you are saying. I will not however read "Holy Writ" but the remark that you made about "What Christianity has taught for two thousand years" got me thinking about prayer and how the Jews looked at it from the Old Testament standpoint. You commented that there is a second definition of prayer, and if what you're claiming is true in Scripture, no matter how I feel what God says is the truth. So before I make a full reply to you, I'm going to do a study on Prayer and if there is a transitive part of prayer that you claim to be true then may God bare that out to me. I am willing to accept God's entire truth, if it is His truth states in His word.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It is quite obvious that saying "All men...." in this case means all of mankind. We do not have to argue over the possibility that women weren't included or that Jesus was or was not included. The statement is not a legal contract; it is a statement that any of us could make.

We often speak of a situation that is all encompassing, and say "all of us" or "all people," etc. without meaning that we are guaranteeing absolutely that there cannot possibly be even one unusual exception living in a coma or a jungle somewhere who doesn't fit.

All men are born in sin. That's the human condition. If you have a new baby, there is no reason to doubt that, at birth, he was estranged by nature from God. We all are.

What is a "testament"? It is a legal contract, and more. The argument is not whether Jesus was or was not included. It's only mentioned to show that "all" doesn't mean "all".
Secondly, as I said, "All have sinned" can only mean those capable of it. And we believe that some are not capable. We know that to be guilty of a sin before God, you must know that what you're doing is sinful. There's also the concept of objective vs. subjective. Something can be objectively sinful, and not be subjectively sinful.
Thirdly, the question of Mary's special case is that God chose to preserve her, not that she was just so good in and of herself...

 

[Albion]

What is a "testament"? It is a legal contract, and more.

Uh, no. But I was speaking of that particular sentence and how to take it.

Secondly, as I said, "All have sinned" can only mean those capable of it. And we believe that some are not capable. We know that to be guilty of a sin before God, you must know that what you're doing is sinful.

You're talking about Actual Sin there. The issue here concerns the condition of man at birth (all men are born in sin, etc.).

Thirdly, the question of Mary's special case is that God chose to preserve her

God COULD have chosen to do that, but there's no reason to think he did and no evidence of it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Uh, no. But I was speaking of that particular sentence and how to take it.


You're talking about Actual Sin there. The issue here concerns the condition of man at birth (all men are born in sin, etc.).



God COULD have chosen to do that, but there's no reason to think he did and no evidence of it.

That particular sentence is contained in the entire document of the New Covenant. A Covenant is a binding act between people and God. So, as part of the New Covenant, it is.

Our doctrine is that Mary was preserved from all stain of sin. She's the New Eve. Eve was born without sin, and disobeyed. Mary, the New Eve, was also born without sin, though she obeyed her Savior.

There's every reason to think so, and there is evidence of it. But you choose not to.

God does not abide sin, so when he entered Mary, she should be sinless. The Ark of the Covenant is a type of Mary. The Ark of the Covenant was where God lived, and was pure. Mary is where God lived, and was pure.

 

[Albion]

That particular sentence is contained in the entire document of the New Covenant. A Covenant is a binding act between people and God. So, as part of the New Covenant, it is.

Well, I just think you misunderstood what I was saying.

Our doctrine is that Mary was preserved from all stain of sin.

Yes, it is. It's strictly a pious opinion made into a dogma.

There's every reason to think so, and there is evidence of it. But you choose not to.

That's always something you can say when you have no rebuttal.

 

[sunlover1]

With God all things are possible.

When it says "ALL" have sinned, what does it mean?

You tell me...obviously, it cannot be an all inclusive statement, or he also meant the Lord.

Was the Bible written for God or BY God?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well, I just think you misunderstood what I was saying.


Yes, it is. It's strictly a pious opinion made into a dogma.


That's always something you can say when you have no rebuttal.

I have rebutted it and rebutted it. And then you 'but' it. I really don't care whether you believe it or not. What I care about is that it's not misrepresented.

Mary deserves a place of high honor for her role in Christianity. That Protestants want to relegate her to Christmas Eve, and no more is your loss. Not hers. Or ours. The question is not really whether or not to treat her specially. It's how special do you really think she is. Obviously, Protestants don't believe she's special. Holding God in her womb for 9 months seems to count nothing to you. I wonder how you treat your mothers...

 

[Lion King]

Mary was not sinless as some claim here. There is a reason why she offered two doves to the priest as an offering for her sins.

Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord&#8221, 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.” Luke 2:22-24


But if she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean. Leviticus 12:8


Try to play "word games" with those passages, if you can...

 

[motherprayer]

Mary was not sinless as some claim here. There is a reason why she offered two doves to the priest as an offering for her sins.

Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord"), 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons." Luke 2:22-24

But if she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean. Leviticus 12:8

Try to play "word games" with those passages, if you can...

She was still special though.

I'm not Catholic, I just see her as having been special. The prophets were special, Job was special, Mary was special.