Something About Mary

[simonthezealot]

If ALL means ALL...then that includes the Lord...

You guys and your semantic word game mental gymnastic approach to apologetics makes me laugh...

Foolishness..The Lord is God. All fall short of Him.

 

[simonthezealot]

So you believe that we are dead in Christ...and Catholic Theology is amiss? To quote you, "riiiiiiight"

We must die to be born of the dead.
We can be alive in Christ (if we're a regenerate Christian) but you nor anyone know the make up of the glorified body nor it's functionality outside what little is spoken of in scripture...

What you guys are doing is praying to dead people who may or may not have risen spiritually (2nd born's if you will, of the DEAD) to be with the Lord..

 

[simonthezealot]

inb4 someone uses Jesus as an example to prove that "all" doesn't really mean "all" in that above quote.

EDIT: too late.

Here's what is disgusting about that, is that they would rather attack the divinity of Christ to defend a un-biblical doctrine than allow that doctrine it's true alignment to scripture...Which is non existent.

 

[simonthezealot]

So Jesus, then sinned? Obviously, not. So ALL doesn't mean every one. "All have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. "All have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. Infants, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], and the senile cannot sin. Lastly, the Greek word for "all", pantes, is used many times, when it doesn't mean "every one".

Attacking Christ divinity. Shameful!

 

[motherprayer]

Attacking Christ divinity. Shameful!

How?

 

[sunlover1]

I have rebutted it and rebutted it. And then you 'but' it. I really don't care whether you believe it or not. What I care about is that it's not misrepresented.

Mary deserves a place of high honor for her role in Christianity. That Protestants want to relegate her to Christmas Eve, and no more is your loss. Not hers. Or ours. The question is not really whether or not to treat her specially. It's how special do you really think she is. Obviously, Protestants don't believe she's special. Holding God in her womb for 9 months seems to count nothing to you. I wonder how you treat your mothers...

Verily I say unto you,
Among them that are born of women
there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:
notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom
of heaven is greater than he.

Hail John, full of greatness.

Oh wait, Hail RootofJesse,'
who's greater than John,
who was greater than Mary....

 

[sunlover1]

How?

He disagrees with mary worship:

Prayer to the Blessed Virgin​

Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin! O my Mother! Thou who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the advocate, hope, and refuge of sinners! I, the most wretched among them, now come to thee. I worship thee, great Queen, and give thee thanks for the many favors thou hast bestowed on my in the past; most of all do I thank thee for having saved me from hell, which I had so often deserved. I love thee, Lady most worthy of all love, and, by the love which I bear thee, I promise ever in the future to serve thee, and to do what in me lies to win others to thy love. In thee I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation. Receive me as thy servant, and cover me with the mantle of thy protection, thou who art the Mother of mercy! And since thou hast so much power with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the grace ever to overcome them. From thee I ask a true love of Jesus Christ, and the grace of a happy death. O my Mother! By thy love for God I beseech thee to be at all times my helper, but above all at the last moment of my life. Leave me not until thou seest me safe in heaven, there for endless ages to bless thee and sing thy praises. Such is my hope. Amen.― (Prayer of St. Alphonse Liguori, 3 yrs indulgence, Raccolta, 342)
Source: With Mary to Jesus: a collection of Marian prayers,by Fr. Theodore Anthony Zaremba. O.F.M., Franciscan Printery, Pulaski, Wis.,1954. The introduction says: "The indulgenced prayers contained herein are from the latest official edition of the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum (Raccolta), a compilation of prayers and devotions enriched with indulgences by the authority of the Holy See."

​

18. It is therefore, a pleasure for us, a full century having passed since the Pontiff of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed this singular privilege of the Virgin Mother of God, to summarize the whole doctrinal position and conclude in these words of the same Pontiff, asserting that this doctrine "vouched for in Sacred Scripture according to the interpretation of the Fathers, is handed down by them in so many of their important writings, is expressed and celebrated in so many illustrious monuments of renowned antiquity, and proposed and confirmed by the greatest and highest decision of the Church" (Bull Ineffabilis Deus), so that to pastors and faithful there is nothing "more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerate, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God conceived without stain of original sin. (Ibidem.)​

33. But where - as is the case in almost all dioceses, there exists a church in which the Virgin Mother of God is worshipped with more intense devotion, thither on stated days let pilgrims flock together in great numbers and publicly and in the open give glorious expression to their common Faith and their common love toward the Virgin Most Holy. ...​

34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica [St. Mary Major], in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles.​

Source:

FULGENS CORONA, Encyclical Of Pope PIUS XII, September 8th, 1953.​

I highlighted some points.
​

 

[simonthezealot]

How?

The inuendo that Mary and any others are without sin. That's how.
Psalm 51:5
Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

 

[Root of Jesse]

THAT has never been the issue here. It's what he actually DID.

You're right! It IS what he actually DID.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Then take it from FORMER Catholics and others who know, that the real story and the approved alibi given by Catholics to non-members who ask about such things are not identical.

WRONG. If you want to know what Catholics believe, do not go to former Catholics. Most former Catholics don't know what Catholics believe or what the Church teaches. Many current Catholics don't know, too. It has to do with short attention spans in modern culture.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Um. But I actually looked into the Catechism after she told me that? And I also asked a priest about it? I didn't simply take her at her word?

Ah, I wasn't trying to get into the middle of anything. I just wanted to share what I had learned.

I would say you went to the right place. Especially the Catechism. Especially look to the footnotes for their references.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I'm saying that I'm not willing to judge the hearts of those who believe they are magnifying their God. Even if they do it in a way that is totally foreign to me.

I had a great-Aunt who walked around with her rosary all day. And she had Christ shining out of her face every time I saw her. She walked the walk. To say that this woman was idolatrous...well, let's just say I'd be scared as hell to stand in front of Holy God and start pointing fingers at that lady just because she sent up the prayers the long way around. Huh-uh. I won't do it.



I'm from the rust belt. If I ran around smooching all my brothers and sisters, far more would feel mortified than revered.



I'm sorry for your loss. I'm sure your mom doesn't need flowery words to know you love her.

[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]


Well, the 'missing' factor is the idea that none of the saints are dead. You love your mother. Her body is in the ground. Do you love the dead? Or the living?

Once physical death is removed as a boundary, the line becomes quite fuzzy. I prefer to acknowledge the fuzziness rather than inflict my own grey area onto someone else's grey area. That's all.

We're all grey here. And if we're not, it's just a matter of time before we get grey.

God bless

Thanks for being open-minded.

 

[Root of Jesse]

That's nothing but wishful thinking. Not only does the Roman Catholic Church encourage such practices, but almost every priest when questioned about the more ridiculous examples (so-called apparitions of Mary appearing on pieces of fruit or reflections in window glass, for example) says that it's harmless and, after all, those worshippers are well-intended and it might strengthen their faith to think this is real. AND the Church itself promotes such practices in many instances by granting indulgences for those who do it!

It is harmless. And lots of things strengthen people's faith and are harmless. My mother got rebaptized in a swimming pool, and says that, while she knows it didn't really mean anything, she felt SO much better for doing it. And she's Baptist.

The Church does not grant indulgences for people praying to toast. Besides which, to receive an indulgence requires several steps-repentence, penitence, and reception of Eucharist, along with proper disposition of the individual.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Neither do we give glory to Mary or the Saints. They reflect God's glory. That is all.

 

[Thekla]

Verily I say unto you,
Among them that are born of women
there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:
notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom
of heaven is greater than he.

Hail John, full of greatness.

God rested on him; John knew the presence of the Lord even before his birth.

Oh wait, Hail RootofJesse,

And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. Romans 15:12

who's greater than John,
who was greater than Mary....

The Root of Jesse, then Mary and John - greater by ontological category ?
(If you mean the poster RoJ, he's in the category with John and Mary )

God for sure, Who created these and others with the skopos that was fulfilled in them.

But 'within' ontological category, these two are greater than many others - by their fulfillment of God's purpose for them, and the height of God's purpose for them to which He created and called them.

It was God who magnified them

glory to God +

 

[Thekla]

Neither do we give glory to Mary or the Saints. They reflect God's glory. That is all.

filled and magnified by Him (sorta as the Sun's light illuminates the moon).

 

[sunlover1]

God rested on him; John knew the presence of the Lord even before his birth.


And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. Romans 15:12


The Root of Jesse, then Mary and John - greater by ontological category ?
(If you mean the poster RoJ, he's in the category with John and Mary )

God for sure, Who created these and others with the skopos that was fulfilled in them.

But 'within' ontological category, these two are greater than many others - by their fulfillment of God's purpose for them, and the height of God's purpose for them to which He created and called them.

It was God who magnified them

glory to God +

Oh YIKES!!!
Yes, I did mean the POSTER (RootofJesse)
Thank you so much for mentioning that lol

 

[simonthezealot]

(snipped)
This is not everyone. Infants, the ...
... and the senile cannot sin. Lastly, the Greek word for "all", pantes, is used many times, when it doesn't mean "every one".

Ephesians 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
Genesis 8:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

Job 15:14 "What are mortals, that they could be pure, or those born of woman, that they could be righteous?

 

[simonthezealot]

Neither do we give glory to Mary or the Saints. They reflect God's glory. That is all.

Deflect is more like it...

 

[Root of Jesse]

I am rather bemused when roman catholics say they don't worship Mary, when their actions prove otherwise. Anything God is, Mary is. Seems like someone's elevated Mary to a position she clearly don't belong...

Christianity: Jesus alone was without sin.
Roman Catholicism: You are wrong, Mary too, was without sin!

How does Mary being without sin contradict that Jesus was without sin???

Christianity: Jesus alone, is our mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5).
Roman Catholicism: Wrong again, Mary is our co-mediator! You know not your Scriptures.

1 Tim 2:5 does not say Jesus alone is our mediator. And even if Jesus alone is our mediator, where does it say that his mother could not assist? Look at it like this. If I try to help my wife with a task, even though she doesn't need help, I'm still co-administering that task.

Christianity: Jesus is the author of Salvation (Hebrews 5:9). Without Jesus there would be no salvation (Acts 4:11-12).
Roman Catholicism: Mary is the mother of Salvation. Without Mary, there would be no salvation.

Mary is the Mother of God, therefore the mother of Salvation. Where does any Church teaching say that without Mary there would be no salvation?

Christianity: Jesus alone is our Redeemer.
Roman Catholicism: Mary is our co-redeemer!

See above. Mary's assistance in no way says that Jesus needed assistance or that Mary's help was necessary.

Christianity: Jesus is our Advocate with God (1 John 2:1).
Roman Catholicism: Mary is our co-advocate before God.

Same thing here.

Christianity: Jesus is the King of Kings.
Roman Catholicism: Mary is the queen of heaven. If Jesus is King, then Mary, surely is Queen.

Not surely. She is.

Christianity: Jesus Christ, having completed His earthly life, ascended to heaven.
Roman Catholicism: Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed to heaven, body and soul.

Yes. God's doing, not Mary's. You even put that little 3-letter word, so you know the difference.

Christianity: Jesus Christ is God.
Roman Catholicism: Mary is the mother of God! Anyone who believes otherwise is anathema. No discussion!

OK, Mary is the mother of whom?

Christianity: Pray to God in Jesus name.
Roman Catholicism: Pray to Mary.

Define prayer...

Christianity: God is most holy, most pure.
Roman Catholicism: Mary is most holy, most pure.

Mary is most holy, most pure creature of God...