Something About Mary

[WarriorAngel]

The point is that all the usual uses of Scripture leave us emptyhanded as regards the matter of praying to spirits.

To pray means to speak to. Its not worship BTW.

With that said - many times in scriptures they write of speaking to angels.
Also Lot prostrated himself to angels.
[Thats veneration]

We know angels exist - we know we can speak to them. We also know those in Heaven are living.
We can still speak to them.

Acts Of Apostles 23:9
And there arose a great cry. And some of the Pharisees rising up, strove, saying: We find no evil in this man. What if a spirit hath spoken to him, or an angel?


If we speak to spirits - it isnt evil. Unless the spirit is evil [of course]


They guard us...


Acts Of Apostles 27:23
For an angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, stood by me this night..


We are alive in heaven...


Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:38
For he is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him.

They know what is going on...

Hebrews 12:1
And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

From the more certain sources of guidance all the way down to the less conclusive ones, there's nothing. That should weigh heavily on anyone who is undecided about this issue, because all he's left with otherwise are much less unreliable guides like custom or our hunches.

If no one can hear - then so be it.
If they hear - then so be it.

But being in Heaven - doesnt mean the soul ceases. For the first death is the flesh - the second is hell.
And so the first life is flesh - the second life is Heaven.

Can you do us a favor, can you actually point to the actual verse(s) that shows that the "dead" is in jail until all debts are paid because I got a completely different understanding when I read Matthew 18:23-35.

As I was reading this, it struck me as, I need to forgive others as God have forgiven me. I didn't come to the understanding of in jail until debt is paid, so I would really like to understand where you are coming from.

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who would take an account of his servants....

IE - this is what the Kingdom of Heaven is like.
Taking account - means judgment.

Well take for instance the prayers of the dead the Jews have.
Its not in scripture - either. But it exists.
That's called Tradition and essentially why the Jews fully understood the parable of Christ in Matthew 18.
They were after all - His audience.

He was speaking to them about being judged and not forgiving. So if we go to our grave not forgiving - we will stay in the jail - [purge] until our family pays our debt - ie - has faith in the mercy of the Lord - by acts of faith in prayer for them.

The prayer of the Jews is called - Kaddish.

He will give life to the dead, ulʼaḥaya metaya, וּלְאַחֲיָאָה מֵתַיָא

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who would take an account of his servants....

IE - this is what the Kingdom of Heaven is like.
Taking account - means judgment.@

Are you sure it's not speaking of the forgiveness part? Because if we take it all to mean it's like the Kingdom of Heaven, then we are assuming that in Heaven, we will be slaves and have husbands/wives/kids even though Jesus tells us that we will be like the angels not having husbands and wives.

Well take for instance the prayers of the dead the Jews have.
Its not in scripture - either. But it exists.
That's called Tradition and essentially why the Jews fully understood the parable of Christ in Matthew 18.
They were after all - His audience.

Be careful when introducing practices that in not Scripture. We know that the Jews didn't always follow what they were commanded, take for example the golden cafe. As for the dead, in the Old Testament,where we have a look of their spiritual lives and it's not included.

He was speaking to them about being judged and not forgiving. So if we go to our grave not forgiving - we will stay in the jail - [purge] until our family pays our debt - ie - has faith in the mercy of the Lord - by acts of faith in prayer for them.

The prayer of the Jews is called - Kaddish.

He will give life to the dead, ulʼaḥaya metaya, וּלְאַחֲיָאָה מֵתַיָא

Hmmm... I still don't understand that. I'm not sure wherever "purge" came in. I think that verse is saying that God won't forgive us if we don't forgive others as stated in Matthew 6:14-15

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Look up the word "intercede"; what does it mean?

When you pray for another, you are interceding, so obviously, you're interpretation must be wrong because otherwise, you sin against God each time you pray for someone else.

It's completely obvious that I am speaking of the special intercession that the Spirit when we pray to God. Someone can ask me to pray for them and I pray on their behalf but the Holy Spirit "interceded for us" for "we know not what to pray for". When someone ask me to "pray for them" they are NOT PRAYING to me to intercede, they are speaking to me asking me to pray to the Father and the Holy Spirit does His job by telling God what I mean. That is completely different. To say that we pray to Mary for intercession when we have no Scripture telling us to pray to the dead for intercession is differently from Paul asking us to pray for each other

Therefore, the intercession that Jesus does must be unique or otherwise, the Bible contradicts itself when it tells us to pray for one another. And in orthodox Christianity, it is believed that Jesus' intercession is unique in that only Jesus can intercede on our behalf for salvation.

It's not the same thing and never was. Paul ask us to pray for each other, the Holy Spirit interceded.

Of course, that opens up the fact that now all other forms of intercession are allowed, and since God is a God of the living and not the dead, that means the Saints, the righteous souls, and the Heavenly Host can pray for us and we for them.

And to be preemptive, look up the word "mediator" as well; you'll see my argument applies for that word as well.

We only have ONE mediator per Scripture and that is Jesus Christ, per Scripture, no one else is given that role. And to claim that the dead can hear your prayers is another thing entirely. Ever example of prayer that we have goes towards God. Jesus taught us to pray to the Heavenly Father and no one else. I have no idea how to communicate to the and to know whether they hear me and either way, it's a waste of time when I can just pray to the Father and know that He hears us.

 

[PaladinValer]

It's completely obvious that I am speaking of the special intercession that the Spirit when we pray to God.

The issue is, you are implicitly arguing a Fallacy of False Equivalence by bringing it up against someone's argument that argues for Saintly veneration and petitioning.

Someone can ask me to pray for them and I pray on their behalf but the Holy Spirit "interceded for us" for "we know not what to pray for". When someone ask me to "pray for them" they are NOT PRAYING to me to intercede, they are speaking to me asking me to pray to the Father and the Holy Spirit does His job by telling God what I mean.

Please look up what the word "prayer" means: Pray - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

In orthodox Christianity, which is practiced by the majority of Christians (Vatican Catholics, Anglicans, etc), when we say "prayer", "pray", etc, when it comes to Saints, we're using the transitive, whereas many Protestants forget is a part of the very word. They instead think of it only in the intransitive, 2nd definition that is given.

Yet as we can see, the word is more complex than that.

That is completely different. To say that we pray to Mary for intercession when we have no Scripture telling us to pray to the dead for intercession is differently from Paul asking us to pray for each other

Straw Man. The biologically deceased are not dead in the same sense, and the Christian religion, based on what the Bible reads, is founded on that. As I said earlier, "God is a God of the living and not the dead, that means the Saints, the righteous souls, and the Heavenly Host can pray for us and we for them."

It's not the same thing and never was. Paul ask us to pray for each other, the Holy Spirit interceded.

So God fails then for the biologically deceased because they are biologically dead? So much for a God of Life...that's entirely contrary to what the Holy Writ teaches us and what Christianity has taught for two thousand years.

We only have ONE mediator per Scripture and that is Jesus Christ, per Scripture, no one else is given that role. And to claim that the dead can hear your prayers is another thing entirely.

Non-Argument and Straw Man. Please reread what I said.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Are you sure it's not speaking of the forgiveness part? Because if we take it all to mean it's like the Kingdom of Heaven, then we are assuming that in Heaven, we will be slaves and have husbands/wives/kids even though Jesus tells us that we will be like the angels not having husbands and wives.

But he doesnt forgive - tho we expect to be forgiven we are not forgiven.
It's about what occurs when we dont wish to give forgiveness.

He sends them to the jail with torturers. And they cannot be released until the debt is paid.

As i said - His audience was the Jews - and they understood why they pray the Kaddish.
I suppose one does need to understand a few things to understand much of the times and meanings behind Christ's parables and so forth.

1-Jews had tradition. Not everything was written.
2-They pray for the dead.
3-In the times of Joseph Maccabees whether anyone agrees to it being inspired or not - [still retained by some Jews as scriptures and the dead sea scrolls keeping it] - Joseph gave silver to the Temple on behalf of the souls who died in battle... and offered prayers.

The only difference is - ppl now dont understand Judaism. Therefore how can they understand what Jesus was saying to them?
Jesus gave parables according to 'their' understanding - which the Church still retains.

Be careful when introducing practices that in not Scripture. We know that the Jews didn't always follow what they were commanded, take for example the golden cafe. As for the dead, in the Old Testament,where we have a look of their spiritual lives and it's not included.



Hmmm... I still don't understand that. I'm not sure wherever "purge" came in. I think that verse is saying that God won't forgive us if we don't forgive others as stated in Matthew 6:14-15

Be careful not understanding 'where' Jesus was coming from and understanding to whom He was speaking.

It's completely obvious that I am speaking of the special intercession that the Spirit when we pray to God. Someone can ask me to pray for them and I pray on their behalf but the Holy Spirit "interceded for us" for "we know not what to pray for". When someone ask me to "pray for them" they are NOT PRAYING to me to intercede, they are speaking to me asking me to pray to the Father and the Holy Spirit does His job by telling God what I mean. That is completely different. To say that we pray to Mary for intercession when we have no Scripture telling us to pray to the dead for intercession is differently from Paul asking us to pray for each other

It's not the same thing and never was. Paul ask us to pray for each other, the Holy Spirit interceded.


We only have ONE mediator per Scripture and that is Jesus Christ, per Scripture, no one else is given that role. And to claim that the dead can hear your prayers is another thing entirely. Ever example of prayer that we have goes towards God. Jesus taught us to pray to the Heavenly Father and no one else. I have no idea how to communicate to the and to know whether they hear me and either way, it's a waste of time when I can just pray to the Father and know that He hears us.

How is it different?
Our conscious doesnt stop - we continue to live in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:8
But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Show me where we lose consciousness and awareness of those we are the 'Body of Christ' with on earth when we pass?


Your mom or dad who passes on - remain your mom and dad.
You can still talk to them - you can even request they pray for you... they are more alive than we are still on earth when present with the Lord.


And the prayer of the just man avails much - we who are not just - still sinning - can greatly benefit from the prayers of the Just in Christ - alive with Him.

 

[Albion]

To pray means to speak to. Its not worship BTW.

It can be. It all depends on the intention, the actions of the petitioner, and the wording of the prayer. Unfortunately, many do constitute worship, although many others do not.

We know angels exist - we know we can speak to them. We also know those in Heaven are living.
We can still speak to them.

Acts Of Apostles 23:9
And there arose a great cry. And some of the Pharisees rising up, strove, saying: We find no evil in this man. What if a spirit hath spoken to him, or an angel?

That verse speculates on an angel hypothetically speaking to man. That's not men speaking with angels and does not even deal with an actual conversation.

That's not even close to what we were discussing and is proof of nothing that you alleged.

 

[Defensor Christi]

It can be. It all depends on the intention, the actions of the petitioner, and the wording of the prayer. Unfortunately, many do constitute worship, although many others do not.

I think this sums up the Catholic position very well...the Church does not teach nor condone the worship of anyone/anything other than God...now, if an individual is worshipping Mary, the Saints or their favorite football team...they are committing idolatry. But it depends on the intention of the petitioner...only God truly knows their heart...

 

[motherprayer]

I think this sums up the Catholic position very well...the Church does not teach nor condone the worship of anyone/anything other than God...now, if an individual is worshipping Mary, the Saints or their favorite football team...they are committing idolatry. But it depends on the intention of the petitioner...only God truly knows their heart...

Amen! Oh I like this one! Your words remind me of a conversation I had with my Catholic bestie. I asked her about Mary and prayers "to" her and such, because I was always told (by non-Catholics) that Catholics worship Mary and commit idolatry. But it didn't sit right with me, so I figured I would talk to her about it. She told me this exact thing!

One thing I have learned is to never take a non-anything person's words at face value about whatever they are non- about. Because they misunderstand.

Thank you for posting this!

 

[Albion]

I think this sums up the Catholic position very well...the Church does not teach nor condone the worship of anyone/anything other than God...now, if an individual is worshipping Mary, the Saints or their favorite football team...they are committing idolatry. But it depends on the intention of the petitioner...only God truly knows their heart...

That's nothing but wishful thinking. Not only does the Roman Catholic Church encourage such practices, but almost every priest when questioned about the more ridiculous examples (so-called apparitions of Mary appearing on pieces of fruit or reflections in window glass, for example) says that it's harmless and, after all, those worshippers are well-intended and it might strengthen their faith to think this is real. AND the Church itself promotes such practices in many instances by granting indulgences for those who do it!

 

[Albion]

Amen! Oh I like this one! Your words remind me of a conversation I had with my Catholic bestie. I asked her about Mary and prayers "to" her and such, because I was always told (by non-Catholics) that Catholics worship Mary and commit idolatry. But it didn't sit right with me, so I figured I would talk to her about it. She told me this exact thing!

One thing I have learned is to never take a non-anything person's words at face value about whatever they are non- about. Because they misunderstand.

Thank you for posting this!

Then take it from FORMER Catholics and others who know, that the real story and the approved alibi given by Catholics to non-members who ask about such things are not identical.

 

[motherprayer]

Then take it from FORMER Catholics and others who know, that the real story and the approved alibi given by Catholics to non-members who ask about such things are not identical.

Um. But I actually looked into the Catechism after she told me that? And I also asked a priest about it? I didn't simply take her at her word?

Ah, I wasn't trying to get into the middle of anything. I just wanted to share what I had learned.

 

[sunlover1]

The trouble I have (currently) with the idea of (me, personally) praying the rosary or kissing icons in reverence, is not that this is 'worship' or 'idolatry'.

It's always good to offer grace to others.

So you don't consider it idolatry?
Is that what you're saying?
Or is it that the idolatry isn't what you're
focusing on for your thread?

And if so, what DO you consider idolatry?
Because if exalting bball players and
Beyonce is considered idolatry, then
maybe we need to redefine the word.
Or maybe we need to rethink our
actions instead.

The trouble is that I do not treat any of the physically living saints with this particular 'type' of reverence.

I do not greet my brothers and sisters with a "Holy kiss". Ever. Though I love them very dearly.

Well it's time to repent girl!
You can practice on me

I would not serenade my mother with, "My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve." Even though I love and admire her unreservedly. (And even if I did, I think she wouldn't to able to hear the end of my devoted speech over the racket of her own laughter.)

You makea me laugha.
My mom was a saint for sure (and she was RC so it's all good)
Adored the ground that woman walked on.
I'd love to kiss her soft cheeks, and when she entered a room
the place lit up with love (IMO)
But yeah, no "offering of myself to her"
Oh well, too late now, she's gone. And while I do NOT pray (err speak)
to her... I do sometimes ask God to give her my love.
Thanks for the thread, that was cathartic lol

This leads me to believe that we have a culture clash on our hands, where flowery reverence to the physically dead saints became enshrined in tradition, while flowery reverence for the physically living saints went out of style with hats.

Thoughts?

My only thoughts on this are
"What example do we see in Scripture?"
We see folks loving on one another.
We don't see folks loving on the dead.

But I am quite possibly missing something

 

[seeingeyes]

It's always good to offer grace to others.

So you don't consider it idolatry?
Is that what you're saying?
Or is it that the idolatry isn't what you're
focusing on for your thread?

And if so, what DO you consider idolatry?
Because if exalting bball players and
Beyonce is considered idolatry, then
maybe we need to redefine the word.
Or maybe we need to rethink our
actions instead.

I'm saying that I'm not willing to judge the hearts of those who believe they are magnifying their God. Even if they do it in a way that is totally foreign to me.

I had a great-Aunt who walked around with her rosary all day. And she had Christ shining out of her face every time I saw her. She walked the walk. To say that this woman was idolatrous...well, let's just say I'd be scared as hell to stand in front of Holy God and start pointing fingers at that lady just because she sent up the prayers the long way around. Huh-uh. I won't do it.

Well it's time to repent girl!
You can practice on me

I'm from the rust belt. If I ran around smooching all my brothers and sisters, far more would feel mortified than revered.

You makea me laugha.
My mom was a saint for sure (and she was RC so it's all good)
Adored the ground that woman walked on.
I'd love to kiss her soft cheeks, and when she entered a room
the place lit up with love (IMO)
But yeah, no "offering of myself to her"
Oh well, too late now, she's gone. And while I do NOT pray (err speak)
to her... I do sometimes ask God to give her my love.
Thanks for the thread, that was cathartic lol

I'm sorry for your loss. I'm sure your mom doesn't need flowery words to know you love her.

My only thoughts on this are
"What example do we see in Scripture?"
We see folks loving on one another.
We don't see folks loving on the dead.

But I am quite possibly missing something

Well, the 'missing' factor is the idea that none of the saints are dead. You love your mother. Her body is in the ground. Do you love the dead? Or the living?

Once physical death is removed as a boundary, the line becomes quite fuzzy. I prefer to acknowledge the fuzziness rather than inflict my own grey area onto someone else's grey area. That's all.

We're all grey here. And if we're not, it's just a matter of time before we get grey.

God bless

 

[Defensor Christi]

That's nothing but wishful thinking. Not only does the Roman Catholic Church encourage such practices, but almost every priest when questioned about the more ridiculous examples (so-called apparitions of Mary appearing on pieces of fruit or reflections in window glass, for example) says that it's harmless and, after all, those worshippers are well-intended and it might strengthen their faith to think this is real. AND the Church itself promotes such practices in many instances by granting indulgences for those who do it!

Please cite ONE example of Catholic Doctrine or Dogma that states one MAY worship Mary and/or the Saints...go ahead...I'll wait.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Then take it from FORMER Catholics and others who know, that the real story and the approved alibi given by Catholics to non-members who ask about such things are not identical.

LOL!!! I just spit coffee all over my keyboard...are you kidding me? You believe that we have some "secret" teachings that only members know about!!! WOW!!! That is too funny!!!!

Did someone hack your account?

 

[Defensor Christi]

Um. But I actually looked into the Catechism after she told me that? And I also asked a priest about it? I didn't simply take her at her word?

Ah, I wasn't trying to get into the middle of anything. I just wanted to share what I had learned.

Amen!! Which of course is the sensible thing to do...when I converted I was SHOCKED to see that what I thought the Catholic Church taught and believed was only arrogant anti-catholic rhetoric...or flat out ignorance.

If you have a questions it is always better to look at the source instead of asking the opposition...

 

[Rhamiel]

Please cite ONE example of Catholic Doctrine or Dogma that states one MAY worship Mary and/or the Saints...go ahead...I'll wait.

um, his point is that this is the official story, but the defacto reality is something differant
I do not agree with him
but I think you are kind of missing the point

 

[sunlover1]

I'm saying that I'm not willing to judge the hearts of those who believe they are magnifying their God. Even if they do it in a way that is totally foreign to me.

Not our place to judge motives of folks.
But I do judge practices, lest I myself
become burnt.

I had a great-Aunt who walked around with her rosary all day. And she had Christ shining out of her face every time I saw her. She walked the walk. To say that this woman was idolatrous...well, let's just say I'd be scared as hell to stand in front of Holy God and start pointing fingers at that lady just because she sent up the prayers the long way around. Huh-uh. I won't do it.

I have no problems with rosaries either.

I'm from the rust belt. If I ran around smooching all my brothers and sisters, far more would feel mortified than revered.

Rust belt... hmm.
I think I might be too.
But I hug em anyhow.

I'm sorry for your loss. I'm sure your mom doesn't need flowery words to know you love her.

No, I don't reckon she can hear me anyhow.

Well, the 'missing' factor is the idea that none of the saints are dead. You love your mother. Her body is in the ground. Do you love the dead? Or the living?

Once physical death is removed as a boundary, the line becomes quite fuzzy. I prefer to acknowledge the fuzziness rather than inflict my own grey area onto someone else's grey area. That's all.

I won't be spending any time speaking to those who have
passed, but you're welcome to have at it.

 

[seeingeyes]

I won't be spending any time speaking to those who have
passed, but you're welcome to have at it.

I'm not one for yammering to those who have passed, myself. But, like you, I don't seem to mind yammering to God and having him pass along the message.

Perhaps you can see how slight the difference really is. Both ideas presume that there is someone, other than God and other than breathing folks, who are capable of 'receiving' a message.

Insisting that someone else draw a line between those two at the same place that I do seems rather arbitrary, so I'd rather err on the side of grace in the matter.

God bless

 

[Defensor Christi]

LOL!!! I just spit coffee all over my keyboard...are you kidding me? You believe that (like your beloved Mason's) we have some "secret" teachings that only members know about!!! WOW!!! That is too funny!!!!

Did someone hack your account?

um, his point is that this is the official story, but the defacto reality is something differant
I do not agree with him
but I think you are kind of missing the point

Yeah I gathered after I read this other post...not sure if he is kidding or being serious...a bit on the silly side I'd say...