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Some Surprising Facts About Evolution

Inan3

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So you don't have the evidence, even though we've told you that we're quite eager to listen to you. Thanks for calling us dogs and pigs, too, by the way.

I did hesitate a little in sharing that scripture because I didn't want you to think I was calling you dogs or swine but I hoped you might get the point and the point is that I don't want to share the things that I hold important and valuable for you to trample on them. I also, don't think it is good for you.

Just so you know I am not one who likes to throw out insults. I do respect people and figure that if there is an issue it usually is because one doesn't understand what the other is trying to say. But even when sparks do fly I don't see any sense in holding a grudge or insulting someone. That is not to say I have never done it but I try to be quick to apologize when I do because I really didn't mean it anyway it was just in the flow of the atmosphere. So sorry if I offended. It was not my intent.
 
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Inan3

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Until then, though, why would we believe? This is about as useful as saying that you will know the truth of Zeus one day.

Or in Zeus.

Not really. It's sad to see people who are so insecure in themselves that they have to invent differences between themselves and other elements of what they think are "God's great creation."
There's nothing wrong with being "just an ape."

No-one has disproved God. It's up to you to provide evidence for him, if you think it would be good to believe in him.

A waste of life? While you're busy anticipating the next life, we can make sure we live the only one we're getting properly.

I'm not sure I can give you the "evidence" that you require. I'm not sure you want what I consider evidence. All I know is that when I heard the message about what Christ had done for me that I just accepted it and asked Him to come into my life, forgive me of my sins and from that day to now, I'm a different person. I am a different being. I didn't become perfect I just became alive to God and aware of His Being. It was like a light came on that was never there before. I just knew it was right and it has only grown brighter. It's not because I am insecure. Not that I don't have some insecurities but that is not why I came to Christ. I was not satisfied with this life, something in me wanted more. I know now that that is the call of God in a persons life. It is deep calling unto deep. Now from your side of the fence I know that might sound foreign or strange but all I can say is that's God. Eye has not seen and ear has not heard the things God has prepared for those that seek Him. After we come to Him He gives us His Spirit that we can understand and know these things. It can't be seen in the natural because it's a spiritual experience.


1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

God is an awesome Being and much more so than you/I could understand with our natural mind. I don't say this as a cop out, I say it because the more I know Him the more I learn of Him and the more I know there is to learn. But the truth is the natural man cannot discern the things of the spirit for they are spiritually discerned.

The scriptures are not written JUST by wanderers in the desert as some have said. There were 66 different books written by multiple authors who were inspired by the Holy Ghost, over a period of about 1500 years. They each are written from different aspecs and yet they all agree.

Why would you believe? I'm not sure, that thought never entered into my thinking. I found it simple and plausible. I would say, "why NOT believe." From my perspective I would say what harm would it do to you if you did believe? From your perspective I would say, What if I am right and you are wrong? Then there would be a problem if you did NOT believe.

There is nothing wrong with being an ape man but I prefer to be a God man. The far reaching benefits are much greater.
 
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I would say, "why NOT believe." From my perspective I would say what harm would it do to you if you did believe? From your perspective I would say, What if I am right and you are wrong? Then there would be a problem if you did NOT believe.
This is known as Pascal's Wager.
What if Muslims are right and you're wrong? You say "Why not believe in God?" Well, why not observe Halal?
Let's face it, the only real argument you can give for someone to believe in God rather than any other deity is "Well... most other people in my country believe in Him".

What people are asking for is a distinguishing feature in God, a reason to believe in Him specifically, not in the benefits of believing in God as told by the Bible.

As for suggesting that people should believe in God because of the potential benefits, I have to wonder what you actually think belief is.
You can't just make yourself believe something because it's got advantages.
That's just lying to yourself.
 
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MoonLancer

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It's the knowledge within that there is a God that makes them worship regardless of what or who they worship. It's the knowledged of Jesus Christ that brings them to the truth. That is why the gospel is preached.

actually theology is just an explanation of things we are ignorant of. everyone was ignorant and thus everyone made up the idea of something filling that ignorance.

man created GOD/s, not the other way around. I dare you to prove otherwise.
 
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FishFace

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I did hesitate a little in sharing that scripture because I didn't want you to think I was calling you dogs or swine but I hoped you might get the point and the point is that I don't want to share the things that I hold important and valuable for you to trample on them.

Trample? What does that mean, exactly. I mean, if I absolutely demolished your arguments, you might deconvert. It's unlikely, but if you do, then you would actually have been convinced by logic, so it's no loss.
More likely, I would simply disagree, provide an argument and you would have no different opinion. Also no less to you.

I also, don't think it is good for you.

Well, at the moment, I'm going in for eternal torment, so what can be worse!

Just so you know I am not one who likes to throw out insults. I do respect people and figure that if there is an issue it usually is because one doesn't understand what the other is trying to say. But even when sparks do fly I don't see any sense in holding a grudge or insulting someone. That is not to say I have never done it but I try to be quick to apologize when I do because I really didn't mean it anyway it was just in the flow of the atmosphere. So sorry if I offended. It was not my intent.

I was only kidding. I'm more easily offended by things that aren't insults, but are insulting. (like jameswright not reading an article I expressly asked him to read carefully) Simply because an insult, one can brush off, even if it is meant relatively sincerely. Sheer rudeness, however, I find much harder to ignore.
 
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FishFace

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I'm not sure I can give you the "evidence" that you require. I'm not sure you want what I consider evidence.

Evidence should be objective, testable, repeatable. Evidence for X should be best explained by X, and X should be the most parsimonious explanation for the evidence given.

All I know is that when I heard the message about what Christ had done for me that I just accepted it and asked Him to come into my life, forgive me of my sins and from that day to now, I'm a different person. I am a different being. I didn't become perfect I just became alive to God and aware of His Being. It was like a light came on that was never there before. I just knew it was right and it has only grown brighter.

This is not what I call good evidence. Not just because I can't "feel it" too - I have felt pretty much exactly what you describe. Part of my rejection of this as evidence is that, having felt this, I now don't. I can, at will, without belief in God, feel the same "presence of God" that I could feel when I was a fully-blown believer, having some serious prayer-time or whatever.

The more rational rejection is that God simply isn't the most parsimonious explanation of these phenomena. There is a part of the brain called the temporal lobe. If you stimulate this with magnets, you can give someone intense religious experiences. The most parsimonious explanation of these religious feelings - the presence of God, etc, therefore, is that it is literally all in your head. We know your mind can produce these things, therefore we don't need to invoke God to explain the observation. Ockham's razor says that we therefore don't believe in God.

It's not because I am insecure. Not that I don't have some insecurities but that is not why I came to Christ. I was not satisfied with this life, something in me wanted more. I know now that that is the call of God in a persons life.

Many people experience the want for something more, but that is not necessarily the call of God. When I had that feeling, I took up photography and got a summer job. Again, Ockham's razor says, if there's something we already know exists which we can use to explain something, then we needn't invoke a new entity such as God to explain.

Now from your side of the fence I know that might sound foreign or strange

Not at all. It sounds, well, old hat.

The scriptures are not written JUST by wanderers in the desert as some have said. There were 66 different books written by multiple authors who were inspired by the Holy Ghost, over a period of about 1500 years. They each are written from different aspecs and yet they all agree.

Non-fundamentalist Christians are quite happy in accepting that there are numerous contradictions in the Bible.

Why would you believe? I'm not sure, that thought never entered into my thinking. I found it simple and plausible. I would say, "why NOT believe." From my perspective I would say what harm would it do to you if you did believe? From your perspective I would say, What if I am right and you are wrong? Then there would be a problem if you did NOT believe.

Again I remind you that belief is simply not a choice for me. Unless someone provides good solid evidence (I described what I define as proper evidence above) I am utterly incapable of believing in God, or anything else. This is the huge flaw in Pascal's Wager. Could you convince yourself to believe in Santa Claus, on the offchance that you would get more presents next Christmas?
 
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Ryal Kane

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Why would you believe? I'm not sure, that thought never entered into my thinking. I found it simple and plausible. I would say, "why NOT believe." From my perspective I would say what harm would it do to you if you did believe? From your perspective I would say, What if I am right and you are wrong? Then there would be a problem if you did NOT believe.

Pascalls wager doesn't work because it's not a dichotomy.

For example, God may have used evolution over billions of years so that people WOULDN'T believe in him and only the nonbelievers go to heaven.
Is it really worth the risk of beliving? You see the flaw in this logic.

And before you say 'But why would God t do that' remember that man cannot know the will of God. Right?
 
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Loudmouth

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I'm not sure I can give you the "evidence" that you require.

Perhaps the same type of evidence that would convince you that Zeus was real.

Why would you believe? I'm not sure, that thought never entered into my thinking. I found it simple and plausible. I would say, "why NOT believe."

So why not believe in Zeus?

From my perspective I would say what harm would it do to you if you did believe? From your perspective I would say, What if I am right and you are wrong? Then there would be a problem if you did NOT believe.

What if the muslims are right? Then we are both in trouble. Would Allah be angrier with someone who disbelieved in all gods or with someone who believed in false gods? Are you willing to take the risk?

There is nothing wrong with being an ape man but I prefer to be a God man. The far reaching benefits are much greater.

I prefer being a human.
 
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MoonLancer

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Pascalls wager doesn't work because it's not a dichotomy.

For example, God may have used evolution over billions of years so that people WOULDN'T believe in him and only the nonbelievers go to heaven.
Is it really worth the risk of beliving? You see the flaw in this logic.

And before you say 'But why would God t do that' remember that man cannot know the will of God. Right?

I was going to bring up an argument just like this. darn you :cry:

:scratch:

Loudmouth, We can prove Zeus existed. :bow:We can see lightning cant we? the lightning MUST come from Zeus, theirs no other explanation, is their? :doh:
 
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Gracchus

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I did hesitate a little in sharing that scripture because I didn't want you to think I was calling you dogs or swine but I hoped you might get the point and the point is that I don't want to share the things that I hold important and valuable for you to trample on them.

You mean like showing them to be full of contradictions, bad logic and blasphemies?

Once their was a certain traveler who wished to make a purchase in a distant land. For payment he had a pearl he deemed to by of great value. He feared to show it to anyone lest he be robbed, or his pearl destroyed.

When he reached his destination after long travel and much travail, he presented his pearl as payment for his heart's desire. It was found to be only polished quartz, nearly worthless.

The moral is obvious: If your pearls are worthless, it is better to find out before it is too late.

Inan3 said:
I also, don't think it is good for you.

Judgment is in the hands of the Lord. I am content.

Inan3 said:
Just so you know I am not one who likes to throw out insults.

I will point out contradictory premises or bad logic. I will stipulate that we have all been guilty of those. But when you have so invested yourself in ideas that you take an attack on those ideas as a personal attack, then you need to sign off and take the time to gain some perspective.

And that phenomenon can be recognized when we find that some of our ideas are "sacred" and so fragile as to fear exposure to the harsh light of reason. If we are not to fear the valley of the shadow of death, how much less ought we to fear the bright light of truth and reason.

Inan3 said:
I do respect people and figure that if there is an issue it usually is because one doesn't understand what the other is trying to say.

One of the tested methods of conflict resolution is to demonstrate that you have correctly understood what your opposition has said. Only when you have satisfied your opponent that you have understood him do you deliver your refutation. And only when your opponent has demonstrated that he has understood your rebuttal is he allowed to argue against it. Of course most folks don't have the stomach for this kind of discussion, especially if they have not closely examined their own premises.

Inan3 said:
But even when sparks do fly I don't see any sense in holding a grudge or insulting someone. That is not to say I have never done it but I try to be quick to apologize when I do because I really didn't mean it anyway it was just in the flow of the atmosphere. So sorry if I offended. It was not my intent.

When steel meets the spinning grinding wheel, sparks fly. It is a sign that one or both is being destroyed. Truth is ever so much tougher than faith, that if truth is on my side I have nothing to fear. Admittedly, if my faith is pressed by truth, it is my faith that must be destroyed, and, if I have invested myself in faith rather than indestructible truth, the process would destroy not just my faith but my very self (if that were possible).

Or put it this way: Truth is the light of heaven and the fire of hell. You must constantly test your faith against the world. If the world destroys your faith it was not truth.

:wave:
 
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Inan3

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Pascalls wager doesn't work because it's not a dichotomy.

For example, God may have used evolution over billions of years so that people WOULDN'T believe in him and only the nonbelievers go to heaven.
Is it really worth the risk of beliving? You see the flaw in this logic.

And before you say 'But why would God t do that' remember that man cannot know the will of God. Right?

I definitly see the flaw in that logic!
 
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Inan3

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:wave:
You mean like showing them to be full of contradictions, bad logic and blasphemies?

Once their was a certain traveler who wished to make a purchase in a distant land. For payment he had a pearl he deemed to by of great value. He feared to show it to anyone lest he be robbed, or his pearl destroyed.

When he reached his destination after long travel and much travail, he presented his pearl as payment for his heart's desire. It was found to be only polished quartz, nearly worthless.

The moral is obvious: If your pearls are worthless, it is better to find out before it is too late.



Judgment is in the hands of the Lord. I am content.



I will point out contradictory premises or bad logic. I will stipulate that we have all been guilty of those. But when you have so invested yourself in ideas that you take an attack on those ideas as a personal attack, then you need to sign off and take the time to gain some perspective.

And that phenomenon can be recognized when we find that some of our ideas are "sacred" and so fragile as to fear exposure to the harsh light of reason. If we are not to fear the valley of the shadow of death, how much less ought we to fear the bright light of truth and reason.



One of the tested methods of conflict resolution is to demonstrate that you have correctly understood what your opposition has said. Only when you have satisfied your opponent that you have understood him do you deliver your refutation. And only when your opponent has demonstrated that he has understood your rebuttal is he allowed to argue against it. Of course most folks don't have the stomach for this kind of discussion, especially if they have not closely examined their own premises.



When steel meets the spinning grinding wheel, sparks fly. It is a sign that one or both is being destroyed. Truth is ever so much tougher than faith, that if truth is on my side I have nothing to fear. Admittedly, if my faith is pressed by truth, it is my faith that must be destroyed, and, if I have invested myself in faith rather than indestructible truth, the process would destroy not just my faith but my very self (if that were possible).

Or put it this way: Truth is the light of heaven and the fire of hell. You must constantly test your faith against the world. If the world destroys your faith it was not truth.

:wave:

Well it looks like you have failed the "tested methods of conflict resolution" because you didn't get me right at all. And with all that philosophical jargon you'd have thought you would have gotten something right.
 
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Inan3

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Evidence should be objective, testable, repeatable. Evidence for X should be best explained by X, and X should be the most parsimonious explanation for the evidence given.

This is not what I call good evidence. Not just because I can't "feel it" too - I have felt pretty much exactly what you describe. Part of my rejection of this as evidence is that, having felt this, I now don't. I can, at will, without belief in God, feel the same "presence of God" that I could feel when I was a fully-blown believer, having some serious prayer-time or whatever.

The more rational rejection is that God simply isn't the most parsimonious explanation of these phenomena. There is a part of the brain called the temporal lobe. If you stimulate this with magnets, you can give someone intense religious experiences. The most parsimonious explanation of these religious feelings - the presence of God, etc, therefore, is that it is literally all in your head. We know your mind can produce these things, therefore we don't need to invoke God to explain the observation. Ockham's razor says that we therefore don't believe in God.

Many people experience the want for something more, but that is not necessarily the call of God. When I had that feeling, I took up photography and got a summer job. Again, Ockham's razor says, if there's something we already know exists which we can use to explain something, then we needn't invoke a new entity such as God to explain.

Not at all. It sounds, well, old hat.

Non-fundamentalist Christians are quite happy in accepting that there are numerous contradictions in the Bible.

Again I remind you that belief is simply not a choice for me. Unless someone provides good solid evidence (I described what I define as proper evidence above) I am utterly incapable of believing in God, or anything else. This is the huge flaw in Pascal's Wager. Could you convince yourself to believe in Santa Claus, on the offchance that you would get more presents next Christmas?

So you have proven the scriptures to be true...

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

And for what?
 
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And with all that philosophical jargon you'd have thought you would have gotten something right.

The fable of the pearl is quite a relevant one. You hold your faith in God to be such a precious thing that you're afraid of examining it.
 
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Inan3

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actually theology is just an explanation of things we are ignorant of. everyone was ignorant and thus everyone made up the idea of something filling that ignorance.

man created GOD/s, not the other way around. I dare you to prove otherwise.

Although, it appears to be what drives the most of you here, I want you to know that dares are for children. I don't respond to any of you because you challenge me or dare me. I don't humble myself because you intimidate me. You neither intimidate me or impress me. I am here to give you the truth what you do with it will one day be weighed in the balance. It is between you and your Creator.

When you "prove" evolution come back and dare me.
 
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TheOutsider

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Although, it appears to be what drives the most of you here, I want you to know that dares are for children. I don't respond to any of you because you challenge me or dare me. I don't humble myself because you intimidate me. You neither intimidate me or impress me. I am here to give you the truth what you do with it will one day be weighed in the balance. It is between you and your Creator.

When you "prove" evolution come back and dare me.
You want us to prove that the frequency of alleles within a gene pool change over time? Ok, give us a few minutes and we can get you a nice long list of proofs.
 
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Inan3

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The fable of the pearl is quite a relevant one. You hold your faith in God to be such a precious thing that you're afraid of examining it.

Missed again. I'm not afraid of examining it I do it all the time. I certainly do not need a bunch of known unbelievers helping me! That is so laughable. If you want to know the precious things of God. Seek for youself. If not, then you have no right to know them.
 
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Inan3

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You want us to prove that the frequency of alleles within a gene pool change over time? Ok, give us a few minutes and we can get you a nice long list of proofs.

No I said "prove" evolution. The frequency of alleles within a gene pool does not prove that we were not created.
 
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I do it all the time. I certainly do not need a bunch of known unbelievers helping me! That is so laughable.

Like Gracchus said, you're getting frustrated and angry over someone pointing out flaws in the ideology, as though they were pointing out flaws in your own self.
You dismiss alternatives to your own beliefs completely out of hand without applying any critical thought. How exactly do you examine your own belief all the time?
 
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