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Some Reasons I Don't Believe in Biblical Creation

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Gracchus

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Hello, have not been to CF in many months. I was pursuing my recreational hobby during the warm summer months of gold mining.

My hobby has shown me firsthand things that to me directly contradict the concept of evolution, and also the dating system that is the foundation that the whole house of cards of evolution rests upon.

So what would those things be?

1.) Polystrate Trees

You could just Google "Polystrate fossil"

Polystrate fossil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


2.) Extremely deep gravel deposits (600 feet deep) buried within Sierra mountaintops.

Please provide stratigraphic maps of the deposits and overlying strata.

3.) Reports of bones and fossils in those gravel deposits of species not common to this continent.

You do know, don't you that some species. like camels and horses, originated in North America and migrated to Asia, only to become extinct in North America about the time when man arrived?

4.) Discovery of long extinct species in those same gravel deposits.

Is there some reason that you know that the gravel deposits could not be old, or that the fossils could not have been washed into the gravel from still older sedimentary deposits?

5.) Report of Human skull found in same deposits by the most noted geologist of the time.

Citation please!

6.) Probability that these gravel deposits were as a result of a worlwide flood.

There is no evidence of a world-wide flood, although if it happened there ought to be.

7.) Direct evidence found in old mining reports that bolster the worlwide flood theory.

Citations please!

8.) Coarse gold and coincident lode gold veins found within well round placer gravel deposits that can not be explained as being from some massive anceint river, Quite to the contrary, there is no plausible explanation to support any alternative theory other than a rapid chaotic event such as a flood. I have studied old mining reports for decades. The reports of the early miners are well documented and plentiful that contain this information. I have found similar stories even within the geologic community and many that are even contemporary.

And where would well rounded gravel be formed but in some ancient river?!

So what would I cast into this discussion?

Within a historic mining tunnel of a good friend of mine is an enigma. His mine starts through solid rock (quartz) for hundreds of feet horizontally. At some poit the nature of the tunnel turns into being a cemented type of rounded gravels that was what the old miners were finding gold mix within. But at the end of this mine deep inside a mountain (maybe 800 to 1000 feet from the surface).....there are huge rounded river boulders and massive deposits of gravel. Water freely circulates through this placer gold bearing gravel layer. Even within the solid rock portions of the mine water seeps through cracks and fissures. At the far deepest end of the tunnel one sees a 50 foot deep shaft going down that clearly shows the boulders I mentioned. But at the top of the 50 foot deep shaft the enigma lies exposed slapping you in the face. there is a portion of the tunnel wall of which appears to be a hard rock deposit of some sort. Look closely and you see angular fragments well mixed troughout this apparent type of hard rock. Within this "rock" are pieces of sinuous or stringy blackened tree bark sticking out in various places. The appearance of the bark is quite obviously redwood, and in remarkably good condition. You can pull this material free and feel the intact fibers in your fingers. This material sits on top of those huge rounded river boulders keep in mind. That hard rock deposit has very distinct sharply angular fragments. Miners noticed and puzzled about these anomalies when they encountered them. I have questioned many miners up in that region and they all have stories to tell like this one, and the sort of odd occurrences they saw with their own eyes. Many believe in the flood because of what they have witnessed in their time of mining. This is not somebody sitting around daydreaming about mind fantasies. These guys were within the bowels of the earth witnessing in situ things that test the sensibility of those that witness them. The old mining reports contain the exact same things I have talked to modern day lifetime miners about. Reality....real people....real things....things that throw serious doubt on evolution and the flawed assumption of time dating that it rests upon.

How can modern geology explain away this anomaly? Those tree bark pieces sticking out of hard rock are billions of years old with water percolating through them?

I would need at the very least, a geologic map of the area. I suspect that his horizontal tunnel dug through the granitic rock that underlies the Sierra Nevada into a sedimentary rock filled channel cut by a river.

Come on put on your thinking caps now.

Common sense has to be used for this to be explained away.

Tree bark that is billions of years old? I can't wait to hear this one.........

How was the bark dated? How were the sedimentary rocks in which it was found dated?

Angular formed rock on top of huge roun river boulders buried a 1000 feet inside a Sierra mountain top.....

Boulders are rounded in a river, and then covered by a landslide of angular boulders. I have seen such with my own eyes, and that was in a mere summer school geology course in high school.

Come on I want to hear about that ancient river that left 600 deep gravel deposits in its wake....

The Nile has a sediment filled channel that is nearly a mile deep, cut when the Mediterranean Sea had dried up after being cut off from the Atlantic. (This happened several times.)

Come on let's engage some common sense now....

Common sense indicates that those who have spent years studying geology probably have a better sense of geological processes than you do, especially since you can't see explanations for your "anomalies" that are well known and well documented.

That worldwide flood doesn't seem to be that impossible now eh?
You have a ... vivid imagination ... and a ... possibly inflated ... opinion of your own knowledge and cleverness.


:wave:
 
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Orogeny

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Orogeny:

good to hear from you again. You are right....the same processes are at work right now. Right again about be deposited there. I do not personally know, but I am sure you offer good advice about trying to date the rock too.
Thanks.

I thought I did offer a coherent puzzle or question...enigma whatever you want to classify it as. Why would there be so much geologic diversity within a few feet of each other?
Because there can be a myriad of different processes and environments in action within close proximity to each other. As the environments migrate, so do their deposits. So you could quite easily have a conglomerate interbedded with a sabkha and a subtidal shoal, and all of that directly overlain by basinal deposits formed in water a hundred feet deep. And that all might be in the space of a few meters. In fact, I observe that exact succession in an area where I do field work. It is quite common to have very different rocks deposited next to each other.

The angular nature of the matrix of the deposit that contained still fiberous tree bark that layed on top of huge rounded river boulders?
Angularity simply implies minor transport. Tell me this: you've been referring to the rock with angular bits as a 'hardrock' deposit. Are you saying that it is volcanic in nature? Or is it sedimentary?
And the other question was the bark thousands, millions or billions of years old.
The bark isn't billions of years old. Trees didn't evolve until the Devonian, if I remember correctly. So it must be thousands to millions of years old.

Is there something incoherent about those questions?
No, they are simple questions, but you haven't provided us with much context. That is the issue.
 
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Doveaman

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Science, the investigation of reality
I think you meant to say, "Science, the investigation of nature".

God is reality.
has never come to a point where the invocation of a god has been required.
Dark-energy.
As evidence, I present to you the huge amount of peer reviewed scientific literature that does not require a God to work.
As evidence, I present to you the huge amount of "peer reviewed" theological literature that does require a God to work.
However, if you can show me some peer reviewed scientific literature that requires the use of a god, and is accepted as true and makes testable predictions, then I'll concede the point.
Dark-energy.
 
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timatter

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@Test All Things2- The geology of this world, and the Sierra Nevadas is very long and complicated. Imagine having an old car that got painted, wrecked, some parts changed and dents filled with putty, and painted again many, many times over. The same thing happened with the Earth and geologists try to unravel what happened, in what order. I doubt any of us here are geologists so telling us "You can't explain X, therefore the flood did it, doesn't prove the flood really did it.
Stumping the professor.....I could ask you questions that you or anybody you respect couldn't, or wouldn't answer. Some questions are silly. "If there is no Emerals City then where does the Yellow Brick Road lead to?" "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"
There is an "Affiliation of Christian Geologists" with a website on the Wheaton College, Wheaton.edu website. They have an "Ask a geologist" link where you can submit a question. There are also essays they wrote where they lament the things being taught about geology in the name of Christianity such as "Flood geology".
Can you tell me what year the flood was supposed to have happened?
 
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timatter

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"As evidence, I present to you the huge amount of "peer reviewed" theological literature that does require a God to work." Well, no. It is what they imagine is true about God, and considering the different branches and denominations of Christianity have different opinions about God and what He wants us to do, they can't all be right, but they could all be wrong, or all but one wrong.
 
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Tiberius

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I think you meant to say, "Science, the investigation of nature".

God is reality.

I love this. You claim that God is reality and to support it, you link to a post where you say God is reality.

If there is no God, then reality must be something else. That's obvious, isn't it? Or did you think that the world ceases to exist for atheists?

Dark-energy.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the bit where it was determined that dark matter/energy can only exist if there's a god. Could you provide a source please?

As evidence, I present to you the huge amount of "peer reviewed" theological literature that does require a God to work.

lol, peer reviewed theological literature. How exactly is that peer reviewed, considering that no one can actually test it? And if it's peer reviewed, why are there so many different versions of it?
 
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Doveaman

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I'm sorry, i'm just fed up with those Scientists who take this minority viewpoint and publicise it as Gospel.
But the "minority viewpoint" publicize Genesis 1 just as it is written. That's Gospel.

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues...And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life". (Rev 22:18-19).
 
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Split Rock

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Split Rock: so the water dis-assembled the bark into minute micro particles that perculated through the rock, and found a suitable space to perfectly recreate the tree bark intact?

Kind of like beaming the bark into the rock deposit? Is that what you are saying?
Of course not. I'm not a creationist, therefore I don't believe in silly ideas like that.

Help me to understand?
You sure need help.


I was insinuating what evolutionists (including most geologists) would claim the age of the rocks to be.
Most geologists don't study evolution. They date rocks without using the theory of evolution. You want to know what age they would claim the rocks were? How ever old they are. So, at least we have established that you made up the "billions" of years date. So, now we are left without knowing either the type of rock or the age of the rock.

I guess I have to carefully lead you by the hand and explain everything for you to grasp my meaning eh?
Not really. Your meaning is very clear. Whatever you find, you will claim "evolutionists" think it is billions of years old, and the real explanation is "Da Flud." Is that about right?

I told you repeatedly I believe the rocks to be THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD, but you have not noticed my responses?
So, how do you explain the bark sticking in the rock that is, according to you, thousands of years old?

I have already stated that such an enigma could be explained by a rapid chaotic event such as a flood...go back and check for yourself.....do you want me to exactly detail this exactly where and how I said it...will that help you to understand?
No, I want you to detail how a flood (now its not The Flood anymore, apparently) explains such an "enigma." That will help more than repeating yourself over and over in muliple threads.
 
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AV1611VET

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I've never quite understood why bible literlists are so desperate to prove their flood story is true.
I doubt that very seriously.

I don't feel a need to prove it's true, let alone feel 'desperate' about it.

And yet you probably think I'm just as difficult to understand as anyone else.

You guys don't fool me one bit.

I'm the opposite of what a lot of your targets think, yet just as anathema to you -- if not more.

It's not what we believe that counts in your eyes; it's what we are.
 
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Aeneas

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No, I am saying that if you can see that belief in a god is simply a result of a fear of death, then why do you do it?

Because the fact that theism originally developed as a response to fear of death doesn't strike me as particularly relevant.

I mean, if you can see that something is a pyramid scheme, you don't enter into it.

We aren't talking about pyramid schemes.

If you know the object will break as soon as you get it home, you don't buy it.

We aren't talking about broken objects.

If you know that a belief is due to a fear of death, nothing more, why believe in it?

Seriously? Because I choose to, obviously.
 
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LOCO

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But the "minority viewpoint" publicize Genesis 1 just as it is written. That's Gospel.

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues...And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life". (Rev 22:18-19).


Then why was the literal viewpoint of Genesis creation story not taken by the Jewish authors or Christianity from the beginning until recently when hyper-literal Christians decided to transform Genesis into a science text, Genesis is primarily a religious text originally interpreted allegorically or metaphorically. The majority of Christians disagree with literal interpretation of Genesis, it is a modern introduction.
 
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Doveaman

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"God of the Gaps" is, after all, the quintessential argument that a scientific explanation for a phenomenon that had been previously attributed to the gods does in effect disprove the gods themselves.
But if God created the mechanism by which electricity is formed, then God is responsible for lightning. So to say "God did it" is perfectly applicable. The scientific discovery of that mechanism does not disprove God did it.
"God of the Gaps" is implicit in a lot of "creation science" claims and appears to be essential to "intelligent design" arguments (eg, "we don't know nor fully understand something, therefore God must had didit" -- refer to goddidit).
But whether or not we understand how something is done doesn't change the fact that God is responsible for it being done since God created the mechanism by which it is done.

The electricity generated in our homes is produced by the electric power plant. The government did it.
(eg, "we don't know nor fully understand something, therefore God must had didit" -- refer to goddidit).
eg, "we don't know nor fully understand something, therefore the dark gods of the gaps must had did it" -- refer to dark-matter and dark-energy.
 
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Doveaman

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For questions of how the universe works, science is so far king.
Except when the science contradicts the science and scientists can't agree on how the universe works.

"Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall." (Luke 11:17).
 
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LOCO

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Are you saying the universe and the life within it wasn't designed by an intelligent God?




No. I am saying that the pseudo-science used by YEC/ID/AIG proponents is masquerading as serious Science to prop up their theory based on a flawed interpretation of Genesis.

I believe God used an evolutionary process to create mankind. However, all SOULS are given to us on conception by God, we don't inherit souls from our parents like our bodies etc.

I don't believe a day to us is the same as a day to God. I don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story. I believe like the Jewish authors that the Genesis creation story was not intended to be interpreted literally.

Blessings :crossrc:
 
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Tiberius

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Except when the science contradicts the science and scientists can't agree on how the universe works.

"Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall." (Luke 11:17).

You seem to think that this means scientists are fighting other scientists. Whichever scientist is still alive at the end is correct! Please. That sort of "truth determined by fighting" belongs in cheesy stories about Tarzan.

Yes, there may be scientists who think a particular phenomenon has different causes, but they aren't fighting with each other. This difference of opinion motivates them to investigate and test so as to find the truth.

Geez, why does it seem like all creationists have no idea what science actually is?
 
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Doveaman

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AIG's statement fo faith says this " By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record." And many millions of Americans dutifully obey. I'm not sure if you would call that effective or not.
I call it effective.

Often times the Scripture is criticize for claims made by various interpretations. You can criticize the interpretations all you want, but the Scripture itself is irreproachable.
 
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