I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

[Hoping2]

God wouldn't torture an inanimate object.

How about if that inanimate object wanted to be tortured ?

 

[Jipsah]

How about if that inanimate object wanted to be tortured ?

You’re replying to a quote of a quote. But what if *you* put the bop in the bop shoo boo shoo boo?

 

[Jipsah]

Your analogy must show that the wrench had a choice in its actions

Nah. Damnationists believe that everyone who doesn’t consciously choose to follow Christ is damned. It’s mankind’s default judgement, because we’ve all sinned. They cop the “unbelievers hate God” rubbish to make their ghastly doctrine sound less barbarous. It’s marginally less inhuman than the “unbelievers would never be happy in Heaven, so why not just torture them forever” tack. Either way they paint God as the Cosmic version of Jong-Un Kim.

We have the choice of whether or not to serve God.
Our final judgement will be based on the choices we make here and now.

 

[Jipsah]

you will continue to doubt yourself.

“Thee” is a second person familiar pronoun

 

[BNR32FAN]

Look at the Greek word used, pas is the word and it means everyone no exceptions, the whole. This is why Calvinism is falling apart, the internet now allows average people to look up the original words used and the definitions and people are seeing that they have been sold a bad bill of goods.

Oh you mean pas like in Mark 1:5 and Matthew 3:5?

“And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So every single person in Judea was coming to be baptized by John the Baptist?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It would be foolish to forget that the devil doesn't stop trying to un-convert even the holy people.

To label the faithful as a cult, would just continue the original sentiments of the original enemies of "the way"..

The disobedient will have no excuse for their actions, on the day of judgement.

“Surely you will not die” comes to mind.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

It would be foolish to forget that the devil doesn't stop trying to un-convert even the holy people.

Well, I appreciate your attempt to at least put the other parties in view and not ignore the facts of their interactions within mankind

To label the faithful as a cult,

I don't think those who claim they are sinless are accurate. Nothing personal. I consider such claims as from the opponents to scriptural facts (that are not the people who mouth such things), for example Jesus' hardline statement of Mark 7:21-23 and the corresponding scripture in Matt. that applies to everyone, to this day

The disobedient will have no excuse for their actions, on the day of judgement.

I have no issues with eternal hell for the devil and his messengers.

However there is not a single named person in the entire Bible said to be in hell now, or in the future. Nor is there a single named person even threatened with such a fate. Out of potentially countless millions of people

 

[Hoping2]

Nah. Damnationists believe that everyone who doesn’t consciously choose to follow Christ is damned. It’s mankind’s default judgement, because we’ve all sinned.

That would indeed be the default judgement, but since Jesus' resurrection we don't have to keep sinning !

They cop the “unbelievers hate God” rubbish to make their ghastly doctrine sound less barbarous.

You are calling Jesus' words 'rubbish'.
He said, in John 8:34..."Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
He also said, in Matt 6:24..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."
Servants of sin despise God !

It’s marginally less inhuman than the “unbelievers would never be happy in Heaven, so why not just torture them forever” tack. Either way they paint God as the Cosmic version of Jong-Un Kim.

Were that written in scripture, it would be believable.
But it is not.

 

[Hoping2]

“Thee” is a second person familiar pronoun

OK

 

[Hoping2]

“Surely you will not die” comes to mind.

What made it come to mind ?
How did my post bring that up ?

 

[Hoping2]

Well, I appreciate your attempt to at least put the other parties in view and not ignore the facts of their interactions within mankind

Who cares about the losers, after the war was won ?

I don't think those who claim they are sinless are accurate. Nothing personal. I consider such claims as from the opponents to scriptural facts (that are not the people who mouth such things),

Things that applied to men before Jesus' resurrection no longer apply to those who obeyed Jesus.
They were fated to walk in and after the flesh their entire lives.
In Christ, we can walk in and after the Spirit now.

for example Jesus' hardline statement of Mark 7:21-23 and the corresponding scripture in Matt. that applies to everyone, to this day

Do you really realize no change between OT and NT ?
Those reborn of God, new creatures; share none of the inherit tendencies of the men Jesus spoke of.

I have no issues with eternal hell for the devil and his messengers.

Are not the doers of his will also his messengers ?

However there is not a single named person in the entire Bible said to be in hell now, or in the future.

As the day of judgement is still a ways off, people's designations have yet to be determined.

Nor is there a single named person even threatened with such a fate. Out of potentially countless millions of people

You have overlooked Matt 25:45-46..."Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

The threat is quite clear.
Thankfully, those who prefer lives of love and service to others, have been enabled to pursue those vocations.

 

[David Lamb]

Oh you mean pas like in Mark 1:5 and Matthew 3:5?

“And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So every single person in Judea was coming to be baptized by John the Baptist?

Yes, I agree. Spurgeon wrote on the use of "all" in Scripture:

" I am told it is my duty to say that all men have been redeemed, and I am told that there is a Scriptural warrant for it — “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” Now, that looks like a very, very great argument indeed on the other side of the question. For instance, look here. “The whole world is gone after him.” Did all the world go after Christ? “Then all Judea went and were baptized by him in Jordan.” Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? “You are of God, little children,” and “the whole world lies in the wicked one.” Does “the whole world” there mean everyone? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were “of God?” The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that “all” means all people, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts — some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile."

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Who cares about the losers, after the war was won ?

Again, you at least get the opponents on the table in the here and now. They should not be ignored in our theology understandings

Things that applied to men before Jesus' resurrection no longer apply to those who obeyed Jesus.
They were fated to walk in and after the flesh their entire lives.
In Christ, we can walk in and after the Spirit now.

Every Word of God applies to all of us, cover to cover. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3. Both good and bad.

Do you really realize no change between OT and NT ?
Those reborn of God, new creatures; share none of the inherit tendencies of the men Jesus spoke of.

And you do understand it is Jesus speaking from the O.T. prophets, as God? 1 Pet. 1:10-11. So, no. God didn't change.

Are not the doers of his will also his messengers ?

The evil present in no one cooperates with God other than to resist. Romans 7, entire chapter. In addition to other statements of fact by Jesus saying the same facts i.e. Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 7:11, Luke 11:13. Heb. 10:22 as well. All showing quite clearly we have an evil conscience. In fact I'm only surprised at how blind people can be to the fact of it, that's how deceptive it is. Evil thoughts are just brushed off as if they don't exist. But that is never the case. They exist because they exist. It is the hinge point of Jer. 17:9

As the day of judgement is still a ways off, people's designations have yet to be determined.

Except for the multiple millions who lived and died prior to Jesus in the flesh. God could have picked from any numbers of them for specific examples and in fact IF such a fate was real for people and was based on our "choices" then it would be a severe error on God's part NOT to give a single named example.

But alas, the position that so many believers hold dear really doesn't have a leg of support in scripture.

You have overlooked Matt 25:45-46..."Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Thinking any person does only sheep works and never goat works is the lowest of deceptions.

IF Mark 4:15 is true and IF devils do occupy people in the forms of disobedient spirits which they do as shown throughout the N.T. THEN this question must bring the other parties to bear. Those who ignore are merely being used to provide COVER for our enemies unseen

 

[BNR32FAN]

What made it come to mind ?
How did my post bring that up ?

This statement

It would be foolish to forget that the devil doesn't stop trying to un-convert even the holy people.

Universalism just like OSAS in my opinion seems very similar to what satan said to Eve in the garden when he tricked her into eating the forbidden fruit. “Surely you will not die”. Both of these doctrines teach a similar message.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Yes, I agree. Spurgeon wrote on the use of "all" in Scripture:

" I am told it is my duty to say that all men have been redeemed, and I am told that there is a Scriptural warrant for it — “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” Now, that looks like a very, very great argument indeed on the other side of the question. For instance, look here. “The whole world is gone after him.” Did all the world go after Christ? “Then all Judea went and were baptized by him in Jordan.” Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? “You are of God, little children,” and “the whole world lies in the wicked one.” Does “the whole world” there mean everyone? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were “of God?” The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that “all” means all people, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts — some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile."

Not to pick on Spurgeon but he missed a very simple principle in the above which I put in bold to make specific observations.

When speaking of "all" and the "whole world" it depends entirely on what worlds we are viewing. For example, for just a brief instant Spurgeon brings in the wicked one above. Does Spurgeon not see that their world is unseen? There is a whole world overlaid upon this world we see with our physical eyes that scripture also engages and that world is the world of Satan and devils in "their kingdom." Yes, these bad actors have a nation, a capitol city even. A generation that has existed since day 1 of mankind that has not yet passed away.

We know that Satan and his own are drawn like a magnet to God's Words, per Mark 4:15. We know that "they," these bad actors unseen, Satan and his messengers take on their powers of resistance from God's Words, particularly Words of Law. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56

So, yes, "all" in that particular world are drawn to Christ precisely to resist and derive their automatic adverse reactions and they do so without us really seeing what goes on unless we're paying very close attention. Then we can "hear" their words and "see" their adverse reactions and we will see and hear them IN PEOPLE.

Nevertheless how they move and act is not like we do. God in Christ for example could have spoken a "Word" in Jerusalem and the entire population of devils could very well hear that Word no matter their present physical location, if you get the picture.

These are also the ones that will WAIL upon His return. Even those who pierced Him. Rev. 1:7. Because THEY are still here, on earth. This is why Jesus forgave those people, those men who pierced Him because "they know not what they do." The devils in those men however knew exactly what they were doing, and will eventually pay the price of final judgment, which is really what ALL of us are waiting for, is it not?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

This statement


Universalism just like OSAS in my opinion seems very similar to what satan said to Eve in the garden when he tricked her into eating the forbidden fruit. “Surely you will not die”. Both of these doctrines teach a similar message.

Love our neighbors IS the GOSPEL. There is no other Gospel.

IF we can't love our neighbors, claiming to love God is meaningless, 1 John 4:20

 

[David Lamb]

Love our neighbors IS the GOSPEL. There is no other Gospel.

IF we can't love our neighbors, claiming to love God is meaningless, 1 John 4:20

Loving our neighbour(s) is part of the gospel, but I think it is stretching it too far to say that loving our neighbour is the gospel. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" is also part of the gospel.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Universalism is heresy

So you do not believe scripture as written in the original language is true but your tradition most likely derived from the English is correct?
I was on you-tube the other day and a guy actually said that the King James Bible corrected the Greek and Hebrew that the Bible was written in, are you one of those types.

 

[timothyu]

Loving our neighbour(s) is part of the gospel, but I think it is stretching it too far to say that loving our neighbour is the gospel. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" is also part of the gospel.

It is a distraction from Jesus ‘ Gospel which He states over 70 times is the Kingdom. Believing in Him means believing in what He said where it is about the will of the Father being done, not ours, about loving all as self, repenting of the backwards ways of mankind and spreading the gospel of the Kingdom making it about Him, not about us.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Oh you mean pas like in Mark 1:5 and Matthew 3:5?

“And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So every single person in Judea was coming to be baptized by John the Baptist?

You are comparing apples to oranges.
The people from biblical times were no different than us today in that they had exaggerated expressions no different from today, If I said " its raining cats and dogs" no one would think that cats and dogs were falling from the sky, and we think as westerners. The Eastern mind is different, they exaggerate things to an even greater scale than we do. To the Eastern mind if you said the whole town all of them came out to see something, they would understand that did not mean every single person no different than us. Now when scripture says " Jacob I have loved Esau I hate" , the eastern mindset would not think that God hated Esau , but that Jacob was definitely the favored one. Exaggerations are just part of the culture, thats why they wail and cry to exaggeration for days, its part of the culture.
They still understand context so when scripture says 1 Cor 15 21:28 " As in Adam all died as in Jesus all will live" , they see that the sentence is a direct correlation and would understand the all as all, not some exaggeration. They may think differently but they are not stupid.
We are no different today, if you asked someone, who had to dog in the fight, is the all in Adam the same all as in Jesu, the obvious answer is of course, but when tradition and religion come in to play, all of a sudden the plain meaning threatens the very piller that they have built the house of cards on and will go to extreme lengths to explain the obvious away.
For example we are told Gods will is most important and must be done and obeyed, but when scripture says in 1 Tim 2:3-6 that its Gods will none should perish but all men are to be saved and come to the knowledge of him, now scripture as written threatens the pillar of the faith,( eternal hell ) we have to make up stuff like two will of God, as if God is in conflict with himself, these are man made gods, not the God of scripture.
So I stand by my statement and know that God does not do abandonment and Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for.