Some Reasons I Don't Believe in Biblical Creation

[timatter]

"I'm with you on that one. Science education in schools should not be messed with. I didn't realise their attack on science education was that effective."
In the U.S. about 40 to 45% of Americans do believe the Earth is 6 to 10,000 years old. If they get over 50%, watch out. The Christian Home schooling science teaching material is almost entirely devoted to YEC. Many of the parents homeschool for the very reason of teaching false science, a twisted version of world history and American history and to keep their kids from hearing the alternatives.
Most Evangelical churches insist on the literal interpretation of Genesis or they don't ever mention it to avoid the arguments that might split the church.
The YEC organizations insist that people must believe the literal interpretation of the Bible and reject anything in any area of knowledge that contradicts it. AIG's statement fo faith says this " By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record." And many millions of Americans dutifully obey. I'm not sure if you would call that effective or not.

 

[driewerf]

No. If it is not statistically significant, then it didn't happen. If it happened, then it's statistically significant. So which is it? Does God heal the sick (in which case we can observe a statistically significant piece of data), or does God not show up in the data (in which case he very rarely heals, if at all)?

He can't make it rain, apparantly:

"OK Pray For Rain Results Are In" by Old Fart Rants - YouTube

 

[Test All Things2]

Hello, have not been to CF in many months. I was pursuing my recreational hobby during the warm summer months of gold mining.

My hobby has shown me firsthand things that to me directly contradict the concept of evolution, and also the dating system that is the foundation that the whole house of cards of evolution rests upon.

So what would those things be?

1.) Polystrate Trees
2.) Extremely deep gravel deposits (600 feet deep) buried within Sierra mountaintops.
3.) Reports of bones and fossils in those gravel deposits of species not common to this continent.
4.) Discovery of long extinct species in those same gravel deposits.
5.) Report of Human skull found in same deposits by the most noted geologist of the time.
6.) Probability that these gravel deposits were as a result of a worlwide flood.
7.) Direct evidence found in old mining reports that bolster the worlwide flood theory.
8.) Coarse gold and coincident lode gold veins found within well round placer gravel deposits that can not be explained as being from some massive anceint river, Quite to the contrary, there is no plausible explanation to support any alternative theory other than a rapid chaotic event such as a flood. I have studied old mining reports for decades. The reports of the early miners are well documented and plentiful that contain this information. I have found similar stories even within the geologic community and many that are even contemporary.

So what would I cast into this discussion?

Within a historic mining tunnel of a good friend of mine is an enigma. His mine starts through solid rock (quartz) for hundreds of feet horizontally. At some poit the nature of the tunnel turns into being a cemented type of rounded gravels that was what the old miners were finding gold mix within. But at the end of this mine deep inside a mountain (maybe 800 to 1000 feet from the surface).....there are huge rounded river boulders and massive deposits of gravel. Water freely circulates through this placer gold bearing gravel layer. Even within the solid rock portions of the mine water seeps through cracks and fissures. At the far deepest end of the tunnel one sees a 50 foot deep shaft going down that clearly shows the boulders I mentioned. But at the top of the 50 foot deep shaft the enigma lies exposed slapping you in the face. there is a portion of the tunnel wall of which appears to be a hard rock deposit of some sort. Look closely and you see angular fragments well mixed troughout this apparent type of hard rock. Within this "rock" are pieces of sinuous or stringy blackened tree bark sticking out in various places. The appearance of the bark is quite obviously redwood, and in remarkably good condition. You can pull this material free and feel the intact fibers in your fingers. This material sits on top of those huge rounded river boulders keep in mind. That hard rock deposit has very distinct sharply angular fragments. Miners noticed and puzzled about these anomolies when they encountered them. I have questioned many miners up in that region and they all have stories to tell like this one, and the sort of odd occurences they saw with their own eyes. Many believe in the flood because of what they have witnessed in their time of mining. This is not somebody sitting around daydreaming about mind fantasies. These guys were within the bowels of the earth witnessing in situ things that test the sensibilty of those that witness them. The old mining reports contain the exact same things I have talked to modern day lifetime miners about. Reality....real people....real things....things that throw serious doubt on evolution and the flawed assumption of time dating that it rests upon.

How can modern geology explain away this anomaly? Those tree bark pieces sticking out of hard rock are billions of years old with water percolating through them?

Come on put on your thinking caps now.

Common sense has to be used for this to be explained away.

Tree bark that is billions of years old? I can't wait to hear this one.........

Angular formed rock on top of huge roun river boulders buried a 1000 feet inside a Sierra mountain top.....

Come on I want to hear about that ancient river that left 600 deep gravel deposits in its wake....

Come on let's engage some common sense now....

That worldwide flood doesn't seem to be that impossible now eh?

 

[Test All Things2]

In my mind this completely confirms the validity of the bible and Noah's flood. Jesus made mention of Noah....confirming, and validating the truth of the flood of Noah, but you have to believe in Jesus first for that to have any weight.

What this really boils down to is those that believe in God (ewhich requires believing in some things through FAITH), and those that DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, and likewise need an alternative theory which evolution certainly is......

Thing is that evolution is built upon ASSUMPTIONS

Creationists build their beliefs UPON FAITH

I choose Jesus and the bible..........................

 

[Belk]

Yeah, gold panning contradicts evolution. Great...

 

[Test All Things2]

Address the the issue of polystrate trees, and the tree bark sticking out of a hardrock deposit that contains angular fragments that sits on top of huge river boulders buried deep inside a mountain top high in the Sierra Nevada.

That was what I posed...not "gold panning"

The challenge is much greater than that.....

This is about why creation is "NOT" true....what about when someone presents something that challenges that belief?

 

[Belk]

Address the the issue of polystrate trees, and the tree bark sticking out of a hardrock deposit that contains angular fragments that sits on top of huge river boulders buried deep inside a mountain top high in the Sierra Nevada.

That was what I posed...not "gold panning"

The challenge is much greater than that.....

This is about why creation is "NOT" true....what about when someone presents something that challenges that belief?

Know what a "PRATT" is? Do you really think evolution is so weak that a few polystrate trees can overthrow the theory that holds all of biology together?

 

[Test All Things2]

I am giving you an opportunity to defeat the logic I use to form my own beliefs.

I can find no alternative other than a worldwide flood that would explain so many things that are in direct contradiction with commonly held beliefs in geology, and related to the evolution versus creation debate at the same time.

 

[Test All Things2]

I do not know what PRATT is. Please explain...you have the floor

 

[Belk]

I am giving you an opportunity to defeat the logic I use to form my own beliefs.

I can find no alternative other than a worldwide flood that would explain so many things that are in direct contradiction with commonly held beliefs in geology, and related to the evolution versus creation debate at the same time.

Then I respectfully suggest you look just a bit harder. Unless you think all the science behind evolution and geology is done by morons?

 

[Belk]

I do not know what PRATT is. Please explain...you have the floor

Point Refuted a Thousand Times. I mean, it's not like a two second Google search does not turn up an explanation of how they form.

Polystrate fossil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Test All Things2]

Remember the whole house of cards rests upon ASSUMPTIONS.

The dating methods........

Theories....some person's best guess that could only be totally proven with a time machine.

I have read and researched about the methodology, and even stumped my college professor at one point.

What if the elements were formed in an out of balance condition?

If the series of breakdowns where one thing changes from one element to another was incorrect.....remember those ASSUMPTIONS

Time based calculating methods if there is an error...the result is worthless

 

[Test All Things2]

So google is the end all of man's knowledge now? Did I understand you correctly?

Because most people erroneously believe the moon is made of green cheese and it says so on google in "therefore must be true"

Descartes?

No...that was "I think therefore I am".....

might be similar though.....

Have google and science merged to become the all knowing entity of knowledge?

I did not get the notice about it?

 

[chris4243]

The theory of a global flood wiping out all but the animals on the ark, fails to predict things that are, and predicts things that are falsified by the evidence. You don't even need to look at fossils and sediments to see that!

 

[Split Rock]

How can modern geology explain away this anomaly? Those tree bark pieces sticking out of hard rock are billions of years old with water percolating through them?

Who says the rocks are billions of years old? Even if they are, why are you so surprised to find tree bark in a location you yourself were able to get to? Are you billions of years old? Did you ever think that maybe the perculating water you mentioned had something to do with the bark getting there?

[Come on put on your thinking caps now.

I'll wait for you to do this first.

[Common sense has to be used for this to be explained away.

Does common sense demand the bark was put there by a world-wide flood??? Are you claiming the bark is thousands of years old? Really?

[Tree bark that is billions of years old? I can't wait to hear this one.........

How about explaining the bark being thousands of years old? I can't wait to hear this one!

[Angular formed rock on top of huge roun river boulders buried a 1000 feet inside a Sierra mountain top.....

How does a global flood explain that? Sounds like plate tectonic activity to me.

[Come on I want to hear about that ancient river that left 600 deep gravel deposits in its wake....

There are plenty of ancient rivers that are no longer around. Why do you need a global flood to explain it?

[Come on let's engage some common sense now....

How about replacing "common sense" with scientific inquiry.... nah.... let's stick to the musings of "common sense." LOL

[That worldwide flood doesn't seem to be that impossible now eh?

Seems to me that no matter what you find in your mining activities it can only be explained by a global flood that never happened. Is that what passes for "common sense" where you are from?

 

[Split Rock]

Remember the whole house of cards rests upon ASSUMPTIONS.

The dating methods........

Theories....some person's best guess that could only be totally proven with a time machine.

Sorry, but scientific theories are not "assumptions." Try looking that word up again, becasue you clearly don't know what it means.

I have read and researched about the methodology, and even stumped my college professor at one point.

You have, have you? Then tell us about isochron dating.

What if the elements were formed in an out of balance condition?

If you know about isochron dating (see above) then you know it is not dependent on any assumptions about starting daughter elements. Right?

If the series of breakdowns where one thing changes from one element to another was incorrect.....remember those ASSUMPTIONS

SCIENTIFIC THEORY, not assumption.

Time based calculating methods if there is an error...the result is worthless

Yeah... it would be better to use an old book written by nomads who didn't know squat about the history of the earth.

 

[Belk]

Remember the whole house of cards rests upon ASSUMPTIONS.

The dating methods........

Theories....some person's best guess that could only be totally proven with a time machine.

I have read and researched about the methodology, and even stumped my college professor at one point.

What if the elements were formed in an out of balance condition?

If the series of breakdowns where one thing changes from one element to another was incorrect.....remember those ASSUMPTIONS

Time based calculating methods if there is an error...the result is worthless

WOW! Stumped your college professer. Obviously you are well on the path to overturning the entire false premise that large swaths of science uses to successfully predict the behavior of the world around us. Do let us know when your revolutionary exposition that models which where falsified 200 years ago are actually correct are accepted by the scientific community. I'm sure after winning all that Nobel prize money you will have plenty of time to crow about your accomplishments on a web forum.

 

[Test All Things2]

I love coming in here.....it is a hoot listening to Split Rock....

Really Split Rock you do make this debate fun.....

The bark has to be at least thousands of years old right?

Some of the things you say are out of character for you though....

Who says the rocks are billions of years old? Even if they are, why are you so surprised to find tree bark in a location you yourself were able to get to? Are you billions of years old? Did you ever think that maybe the perculating water you mentioned had something to do with the bark getting there?


What would me being billions of years old have anything to do with what I saw?

You lost me on that one

What or how could perculating water pull tree bark down into the earth and deposit it intact within a hardrock formation in completely random fashion?....I have to hear this one from your worldview

I have read about "isochron dating" and you know yourself that your opponents can throw issues at you about it too....

 

[Test All Things2]

Belk: I did pose a question to my professor that he could not give an answer to. Is that totally incomphrehensible....impossible for that to happen?....you portray I am making that up?

It happened....sorry to burst your bubble.

I do not deserve anything, but I did ask a question that defies the logic that time-based systems are based upon. He said he had never considered that possibilty.

But no I am a liar or lunatic?

 

[Split Rock]

I love coming in here.....it is a hoot listening to Split Rock....

Really Split Rock you do make this debate fun.....

The bark has to be at least thousands of years old right?

Aren't you claiming that it was deposited there by a world wide flood that occurred thousands of years ago?

Some of the things you say are out of character for you though....

Who says the rocks are billions of years old? Even if they are, why are you so surprised to find tree bark in a location you yourself were able to get to? Are you billions of years old? Did you ever think that maybe the perculating water you mentioned had something to do with the bark getting there?


What would me being billions of years old have anything to do with what I saw?

You lost me on that one

You were there with the rocks. The bark was there with the rocks. You are claiming the bark must be billions of years old. Get it now?

What or how could perculating water pull tree bark down into the earth and deposit it intact within a hardrock formation in completely random fashion?....I have to hear this one from your worldview

What type of rock formation? Lots of stuff can get calicified when deposited inside the earth by running water. People have found hammers, old shoes, whatever. It is no mystery requiring a global flood to put them there... and then what? Stick them into "hardrock" formations??? LOL