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Some random discussion on evolution...

pitabread

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I don't know what exactly are you trying to achieve with this, especially in the light of supposed whale evolution where it is obvious that only one species with small population sizes had to evolve numerous de novo functions in only 4 million years.

I'll deal with the rest of the post later, but this thread had piqued my curiosity regarding whale evolution. I did some background digging and apparently the original 49 Mya date for the fossil in question was actually revised downward to between 40-46 Mya upon publication of the official paper. The press release in the linked article should not be taken as canon. In other words, you're actually dealing with anywhere from 7 to 13 million year time frame for the transition to fully aquatic mammals.

In further digging, I also found this comprehensive review detailing both morphological changes, but also the molecular mechanisms related to whale evolution: Molecular evolution tracks macroevolutionary transitions in Cetacea

Interestingly enough, it looks like a lot of whale evolution is a result of inactivation of genes and other loss of function during the transition from terrestrial to aquatic.

With the move to an aquatic environment, cetaceans have become anatomically streamlined and have lost many structures. Within a phylogenetic context, the absence of anatomical structures in certain cetaceans (e.g., enamel orolfactory bulbs) and the presence of these structures in outgroups predicts inactivation of genes related to these structures.

...

Given the radical transformation of the senses, pseudogenes abound in cetaceans, offering a glimpse at the process of large-scale pseudogenization across genes related to olfaction, taste, vomeronasal chemoreception, and sight.
It's a fascinating read and kinda reinforces what I said earlier about there being ample literature on these subjects. You just have to go out and look. ;)
 
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pitabread

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I don't really see anything of substance worth responding to. You just keep playing these rhetorical games and ignore everything I said about the population sizes and 'species to species' comparison.

I'm not sure what "species to species" comparison you are referring to?

Regardless, there are no rhetorical games, red herrings or anything else you are accusing me of here. What I am doing is responding directly to the main premise of the original OP: namely that you are comparing evolutionary scenarios of completely different scope and magnitude and then wondering why we don't see the same level of evolutionary change in those scenarios.

And the answer is simple: because you are comparing evolutionary scenario of completely different scope and magnitude.

I don't know of another way to try to explain this.

If you wanted a more comparable scenario, comparing something like primate evolution over a period of ~10 million years with whale evolution would be more apt. And (surprise!) if you look at something like primate evolution over a such a period you see far more evolutionary change than you would simply looking at human evolution over 300,000 years.

I don't know what exactly are you trying to achieve with this, especially in the light of supposed whale evolution where it is obvious that only one species with small population sizes had to evolve numerous de novo functions in only 4 million years.

See my other post re: whale evolution.

So? Fixation has nothing to do with de novo origin of something, it just means the standardization of preexisting thing. You are red herring, again.

Okay, there are a few things that need to be addressed here.

Evolution is a process that occurs over time. Consequently, changes in populations build up over time as populations continue to reproduce and variations of genes are passed down over multiple generations.

It is important to understand how this works because it is the compounding of these changes over time that lead to progressively greater changes in these populations. The fixation of alleles is important, because it creates a new baseline in a population on which future changes can be built.

I get the feeling from your posts that you believe evolution works in single steps. If I am incorrect in that assumption, feel free to correct me. But the fact you are ignoring large portions of the process of evolution and seem to not be factoring in time, the change in alleles in populations and changes over multiple generations speaks to that.

This is called phenotypic plasticity and it essentially means that two organisms with identical genome can exhibit different behavior, morphology and physiology in response to different environment. And no, this has nothing to do with evolution creating de novo things (genes if you want) and higher life forms. Evolution happens at the level of genes, while everything else is just pre-programmed ability of an organism. So again, you are red herring.

Except when speaking of canine evolution, domestication and breeding, we are talking about mutations. This is why I referred you to an article on the subject. Here it is again: Canine Morphology: Hunting for Genes and Tracking Mutations

What is the point of copy/pasting definitions of evolution and ignoring the essence of my words?

Those were my own words. If I copy/paste anything I clearly mark it as a quote and always cite my sources.

Regardless, the essence of your words appears to be an grossly incomplete definition of how evolution works. Yes, mutations are an important component of the evolutionary process as they provide the raw genetic variation on which other evolutionary processes act. But again, evolution happens at the population level not the individual level. It is the assortment and passing on of that genetic variation that ultimately drives changes in populations over time.

This is again why I feel that you believe that evolution functions in single step increments. You don't appear to be conceptualizing the broader process of genetic changes in populations over time.

Are you serious? You want the list of all the articles and books I have read in the last 10+ years?

No, not all. But I would love to know what material you have been reading. Even citing your favorite book or two would be interesting.

And again you provided nothing but theoretical speculation. I am asking for observational evidence, for an actual science. I am asking examples of evolution in action.

I am very confused by your responses in this thread. You are making arguments about scenarios like whale evolution, bird evolution, and the Cambrian explosion. Any relevant material to understanding evolution in those scenarios is going to be (mostly) historical in nature and involve reconstructing evolutionary pathways that have already occurred.

If you want to understand how things like organs or body plans or whatever evolved, then the key to understanding those things is going to be found in literature covering those subjects.

On the other hand, if you want contemporary observed evolution whether in lab experiments or in nature, that's fine. But you need to understand that such scenarios and observations are going to far more limited in scope than evolutionary scenarios that took place over millions of years.

That said, there is still potential to learn a lot about evolution in such experiments and observations. For example, the long-term E.Coli experiment has provided some such insights: E. coli long-term evolution experiment - Wikipedia

Living systems are characterized by the enormous number of distinct structures and the origin of these structures is what the theory of evolution must explain. The articles that you refer to, are just historical narratives and stories that attempt to reconstruct unseen past events.

The origin of those structures is exactly what scientists are trying to understand when they reconstruct evolutionary pathways for said structures. I'm not sure what else you would be expecting? As much as I'm sure scientists would love to time-travel through millions of years to observe everything in real time, there are practical limits to such investigation.

As such they are scientifically worthless and serve only as means for evolutionary biologists to parasite on tax money or pursue atheistic ideology.

Wow. This really says a lot about your attitude and your apparent disdain for science.

I don't know why you would so readily thumb your nose at the very scientific investigations seeking to answer what you claim evolution should be seeking to answer. Seems contradictory.
 
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Gene2memE

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the melon organ for instance?:

dolphin-vocal-organ.jpg


(image from Wikie Says Hello And Bye-Bye!)

Chapter 4 in this doctoral thesis has some of the answers.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...NCTIONAL-AND-EVOLUTIONARY-INTERPRETATIONS.pdf
 
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OldWiseGuy

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No.

This is a case of evidence based reasoning.

Look at the evidence from the real world and see what it indicates.

The real world indicates design and creation.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The real world indicates that species are the result of biological evolution over time.

I agree that the real world is pretty screwed up.
 
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Contradiction

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I'm not sure what "species to species" comparison you are referring to?

Regardless, there are no rhetorical games, red herrings or anything else you are accusing me of here. What I am doing is responding directly to the main premise of the original OP: namely that you are comparing evolutionary scenarios of completely different scope and magnitude and then wondering why we don't see the same level of evolutionary change in those scenarios.

And the answer is simple: because you are comparing evolutionary scenario of completely different scope and magnitude.

I don't know of another way to try to explain this.

If you wanted a more comparable scenario, comparing something like primate evolution over a period of ~10 million years with whale evolution would be more apt. And (surprise!) if you look at something like primate evolution over a such a period you see far more evolutionary change than you would simply looking at human evolution over 300,000 years.



See my other post re: whale evolution.



Okay, there are a few things that need to be addressed here.

Evolution is a process that occurs over time. Consequently, changes in populations build up over time as populations continue to reproduce and variations of genes are passed down over multiple generations.

It is important to understand how this works because it is the compounding of these changes over time that lead to progressively greater changes in these populations. The fixation of alleles is important, because it creates a new baseline in a population on which future changes can be built.

I get the feeling from your posts that you believe evolution works in single steps. If I am incorrect in that assumption, feel free to correct me. But the fact you are ignoring large portions of the process of evolution and seem to not be factoring in time, the change in alleles in populations and changes over multiple generations speaks to that.



Except when speaking of canine evolution, domestication and breeding, we are talking about mutations. This is why I referred you to an article on the subject. Here it is again: Canine Morphology: Hunting for Genes and Tracking Mutations



Those were my own words. If I copy/paste anything I clearly mark it as a quote and always cite my sources.

Regardless, the essence of your words appears to be an grossly incomplete definition of how evolution works. Yes, mutations are an important component of the evolutionary process as they provide the raw genetic variation on which other evolutionary processes act. But again, evolution happens at the population level not the individual level. It is the assortment and passing on of that genetic variation that ultimately drives changes in populations over time.

This is again why I feel that you believe that evolution functions in single step increments. You don't appear to be conceptualizing the broader process of genetic changes in populations over time.



No, not all. But I would love to know what material you have been reading. Even citing your favorite book or two would be interesting.



I am very confused by your responses in this thread. You are making arguments about scenarios like whale evolution, bird evolution, and the Cambrian explosion. Any relevant material to understanding evolution in those scenarios is going to be (mostly) historical in nature and involve reconstructing evolutionary pathways that have already occurred.

If you want to understand how things like organs or body plans or whatever evolved, then the key to understanding those things is going to be found in literature covering those subjects.

On the other hand, if you want contemporary observed evolution whether in lab experiments or in nature, that's fine. But you need to understand that such scenarios and observations are going to far more limited in scope than evolutionary scenarios that took place over millions of years.

That said, there is still potential to learn a lot about evolution in such experiments and observations. For example, the long-term E.Coli experiment has provided some such insights: E. coli long-term evolution experiment - Wikipedia



The origin of those structures is exactly what scientists are trying to understand when they reconstruct evolutionary pathways for said structures. I'm not sure what else you would be expecting? As much as I'm sure scientists would love to time-travel through millions of years to observe everything in real time, there are practical limits to such investigation.



Wow. This really says a lot about your attitude and your apparent disdain for science.

I don't know why you would so readily thumb your nose at the very scientific investigations seeking to answer what you claim evolution should be seeking to answer. Seems contradictory.

The discussion with you really makes no sense. You are just recycling and repeating the same false assertions and copy/pasting irrelevant text from the articles. The things I have said are both factual and simple. First, regarding Cambrian. A distinct body plan, let's call it X, didn't start evolving from a million of different Cambrian species but only from one, the same as whales didn't start evolving from all species present on Earth at that time, but only from one — Pakicetus. For that reason I can use only E.coli bacteria to conclude that they as a species evolved zero de novo distinct structures, while some Cambrian species supposedly evolved body plan X with a variety of such structures. So it's pretty simple and spot on comparison.

Second, your tautological recycling of the definition of evolution won't make reality go away. In reality, in order to get de novo distinct structure you must rearrange particles of some preexisting structure. There is no other way. There are no magic-wand solutions. No amount of copy/pasted text from the articles and no amount of recycled definitions will make this reality go away. And in order to get functional de novo distinct structure, where functional means one that fits, either an environment or an interdependent structure, you must scan thorough all structures that don't fit. And this is the crux of the problem: the ratio between structures that fit an environment or an interdependent structure and those that don't. And this all boils down to simple mathematics and few physical facts. Now, can you comprehend this problem or not? If not, there's no reason for you to continue this discussion, since this topic is about critical examination of the theory and not about searching for all sorts of excuses to believe in it. This also goes for all other posters who troll the discussion with irrelevant points.
 
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Jimmy D

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the melon organ for instance?:

dolphin-vocal-organ.jpg


(image from Wikie Says Hello And Bye-Bye!)

Irrelevant.

The question was specific to Contradictions claims regarding a 4 million year time frame about 40 million years ago. The article he linked to was vague but it appears to be discussing the discovery of basilosaurid fossils in Antartica, did they even have echolocation?
 
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pitabread

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The things I have said are both factual and simple. First, regarding Cambrian. A distinct body plan, let's call it X, didn't start evolving from a million of different Cambrian species but only from one, the same as whales didn't start evolving from all species present on Earth at that time, but only from one — Pakicetus. For that reason I can use only E.coli bacteria to conclude that they as a species evolved zero de novo distinct structures, while some Cambrian species supposedly evolved body plan X with a variety of such structures. So it's pretty simple and spot on comparison.

Okay, let's step back a bit. How do you think the process of evolution actually works?

For example, in your Cambrian scenario where you have an organism, do you think that such an organism just is swimming along one day and suddenly a generation later has a totally different body plan?

Can you describe the complete process of evolution the way you see it?

There's still the issue of the fact you're comparing time scales of monumentally different time scales as well. We can revisit that point later, although I'm running out of ways to try to explain that 13+ million years is a monumentally greater time frame than 30 years.

And in order to get functional de novo distinct structure, where functional means one that fits, either an environment or an interdependent structure, you must scan thorough all structures that don't fit. And this is the crux of the problem: the ratio between structures that fit an environment or an interdependent structure and those that don't. And this all boils down to simple mathematics and few physical facts.

I highlighted the above, because I'm not sure what you are trying to say. What do you mean by "scan through all the structures that don't fit"? What "scanning" are you referring to?

Are you familiar with the concept of natural selection? Because understanding the process of evolution involves understanding the process of natural selection. I get the feeling that in your hypothetical evolutionary scenarios, natural selection doesn't appear to be part of that process.

Now, can you comprehend this problem or not?

What I'm getting from your posts is that the issue here is strictly conceptual.
 
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Larniavc

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say, arent you the guy who said it about 100 times?
My mistake entirely.

Just for clarity’s sake: do you believe in magical animal cars?
 
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Shemjaza

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Observation and critical thinking. :D
That is a bad way of saying "I've got a really strong feeling about it."

If you had examined it critically as you claim, you'd be able to talk specifics of evidence, not just wave your hand towards an anatomy text book you've heard of and say "just look at it."
 
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