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Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, therefore free will destroys faith and the gospel? Absolute non sequiteur.
I think that the term 'free will' as an equivocation is a source of division. When reasoning upon such an equivocation, it appears to me that one side argues by implication that God should not be blamed for unrighteousness in the flesh, while the other side argues by implication that flesh should not be credited for righteousness. The overarching issue of seeking who is to blame in such a framework spawns theologies that do not consider that there are circumstances where perceived shortcomings exist yet no one is to blame that they do.
I'm still waiting (after 7 pages now) for "some harmful side effects of free will", as if free will can be compared with medical pills that can be swallowed.
Exactly and there are many OPs like this one on this forum - pitting Calvanists vs non-Calvanists. This OP in particular was so poorly presented that I was surprised that it got any traction.
You might be technically right. In post 86 Cormack describes Calvanist Compatabilism - I found it informative.
God is making me do everything but I’m free, that sounds impossible. It’s possible, we even read how it’s possible in that quote from Piper.
I find "Every Christian almost believes in Calvanism" to be true for me and requiring consideration but never thought about it that way. And yes it is the Bible getting in the way.
The devil’s in the details, every Christian almost believes in Calvinism. It’s just the pesky Bible that keeps getting in the way of our cleverly formed philosophies.
I’ll repost, bold and italicise that quote from Pipe below, that’ll help more than anything. You’ll probably be able to see why you don’t agree with the statement better afterwards.
@RickReads @John Mullally.
Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that (1) God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with (2) voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11)...Notice 1 is Gods predetermination and meticulous providence, not general providence, meticulous. Calvinism is determinism, everything is determined by God.
So God is actively in control of everything in a very meticulous way, but Piper than explains (2) “voluntary choice” is totally harmonious with this kind of meticulous predetermination.
That’s where we get the word compatiblism from, free will and determinism are said to be compatible under this philosophy.
Well, how’s that even possible?
He defines the terms freely and not coerced in that quotation above, notice not being coerced simply means “we do not choose against our desires.”
Freedom according to Calvinism doesn’t mean “choose this day whom you will serve,” you don’t have the ability to act contrary in any given circumstance. You can’t choose this day.
Think about every “what if” movie you’ve ever seen, It’s a wonderful life (1946) or Sliding doors (1998,) there’s no what if under Calvinism, there’s no world of possibilities. If you were made for hell, that’s where you’re going, life is hopeless for the lost. No last minute visitation from an angel to save you because God deeply loves the lost.
Calvinists don’t define freedom as being able to choose between righteousness and wickedness, there was no escape that day you cheated or your wife or ran a red light or even stubbed your toe, God meticulous prepared those things.
“Oh but he’s not violating your freedom!!!” The Calvinist replies, he’s not violating your freedom because you’re “doing what you want to do.”
It’s all about what you want to do, not about what you could do. That’s the redefinition of freedom to the Calvinist.
That’s what freedom means to the Calvinist, it’s not about having choices to make, it’s about acting in line with your nature.
Think about that, if someone were to meet a woman in a bar, and he slips her a love potion or something, according to the Calvinist he’s not forcing her to leave the bar with him at the end of the night, he’s just changing her nature so that she loves him.
That sounds horrible and evil to me, she didn’t originally want him going into the bar, and if she was allowed options she’d reject him, naturally she seen him as a weird and creepy looking wizard. Still, she’s leaving with him.
That’s the new birth under Calvinism, God doesn’t force you to marry him, he changes the nature he originally ordered to be broken so that you fall in love “willingly” (so to speak.) You don’t will to drink the potion, that’s irresistible grace, but now that the potion is in your system, now you willingly obey.
Even if you didn’t decide to have a sinful nature and even though there’s no other alternatives than to act the way you do, that’s not a big deal to the Calvinist, now you have it and you’re acting how you would like to act according to the meticulous workings of God.
That’s Calvinistic “free will.”
Besides that and more on topic yes there are consequences to proper Libertarianism, true free will, the ability to do otherwise, the ability to avoid sin, the ability to choose this day whom you will serve, love, responsibility, exercising faith of your own volition.
This post is also for the lurking Calvinists who could never fully put their finger on the pulse, who could never figure out what was going on with “freedom” and Calvinism.
There is no other logically valid form of Calvinism, you either have compatibilists or you have confused people who talk in rambling inconsistencies all day long.
God bless.
Human faith isn't saving faith. It's the kind of faith you gamble on when buying a used car...etc.
I don't listen to Piper. I stated my view, you tell me what category you stuff me into.Are you a compatibilist and do you agree with that quote from John Piper?
