Some harmful side effects of free will.

[RickReads]

I don't like that line.

When Jesus addressed the churches in Revelations he was conversant in identifying groups in error that need to be corrected (or repudiated) using their group name (Nicolaitians and Jezebel) everyone at that time understood. Not intending to make a negative statement here in this example about Calvanism - but it is a major influence in the church today - so we should be conversant. That doesn't mean your saying no comment or ignoring questions is a problem. If nothing else studying Calvanism will exercise psycholinguistics.

With Calvanism, you may think you are trusting in Christ and in the atonement, but your action (false repentance?) could be self-forced and sourced from your own mind (conscience); instead of being drawn by the Holy Spirit - because you are not elect (second class) - so by definition that trust is not genuine.

I always thought that the conscience (if it is not seared) was the voice of the Holy Spirit.

That`s a good point, but downside is studying the doctrines developed after the 1st century takes study time away from reading the gospel.

FYI, your conscience isn`t the voice of the Holy Spirit. The lost have a conscience Romans 2:15.
The Holy Spirit speaks things into your heart, not usually your mind which cannot always be trusted.
Your heart is where you hear Him speak.

 

[childeye 2]

I believe you are conversant on Calvanism.

If there are parallels in my posts, it's purely circumstantial.

Nixon story is interesting.

I found it uniquely compelling when I heard it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Respectfully, the bible doesn't say there were rules. If Abel was following rules, it seems to me that would negate the entire point of faith being the reason Abel gave a better offering.

Let's consider Genesis 4-
4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering,
5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?
7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

In the very next verse we read about Cain's plot to murder his brother.

Now, why do you suppose the red and blue words don't indicate that God let Cain and Abel know what kind of offering He desired?

And the green words prove that God DID give them "rules" regarding offerings.

Otherwise, the text makes no sense.

Do you think God expected the brothers to GUESS what would be an acceptable offering??

 

[childeye 2]

Let's consider Genesis 4-
4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering,
5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?
7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

In the very next verse we read about Cain's plot to murder his brother.

Now, why do you suppose the red and blue words don't indicate that God let Cain and Abel know what kind of offering He desired?

And the green words prove that God DID give them "rules" regarding offerings.

Otherwise, the text makes no sense.

Do you think God expected the brothers to GUESS what would be an acceptable offering??

I think God liked Abel's offering more because he gave the best of what he had to give out of a pure heart that wanted only to see God pleased. I don't think Cain did that. I think Cain was held back in his giving through an impure purpose, wherein he may have felt more as if it was required of him to give something. I notice that Cain became angry which means he was offended and took it personally (carnal minded). This makes me think that Cain probably brought an offering so he would look good, which is not dissimilar to the Pharisees that would give their alms in public for all to see. I figure if Cain's intent was truly to see God pleased, then I think he would try again and again and again until he found what would please God, not be mad that God wasn't pleased.

I don't believe those who know God need to guess what pleases God. God desires mercy and understanding not sacrifice. He loves a cheerful giver not one that gives grudgingly. He loves that when I see a beggar, I open my heart as wide as I open my wallet. I believe such offerings will be seen with favor by faith and not by rules. Jesus said make peace with your brother before you bring your gift to the altar. Take the last seat at the table. If asked for your coat give them your shirt as well. And don't do it to look good.

Moreover as pertaining to looking good, God sees our hearts more than we do. He knows what ails us. God needs nothing from us because He owns everything including us. Whatever we have to offer Him comes from His providence in the first place, even our own empathy and goodness are His attributes He bestows upon us. Abel probably considered this, so he prepared an offering of the best he had to give, which was a true worship. The spirit of an offering is to first be thankful to God through the acknowledgment of His providence that upholds us in all things, especially His Spirit. We need to be thankful to God we are even thankful to God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think God liked Abel's offering more because he gave the best of what he had to give out of a pure heart that wanted only to see God pleased. I don't think Cain did that.

I think you have made a real stretch here, with a huge helping of presumption.

The ONLY WAY God would be pleased with an offering is if He gave instructions as to what pleases Him.

You're just betting that Abel lucked out and guessed right, basically.

I think Cain was held back in his giving through an impure purpose, wherein he may have felt more as if it was required of him to give something.

I suggest you read Gen 4:7 again. God even explained WHY He wasn't pleased with Cain's offering. He didn't do what was right.

Why would you presume to think that God gave no instructions and then graded the brothers on how they would respond?

v.7 only makes sense IF IF IF God had given them both instructions. And Cain did his own thing. Or as the Fleetwood Mac once sung, "go your own way". And Cain did.

I notice that Cain became angry which means he was offended and took it personally (carnal minded).

I'm sure you are aware that some people just hate being told what to do.

This makes me think that Cain probably brought an offering so he would look good, which is not dissimilar to the Pharisees that would give their alms in public for all to see.

Yep, he went his own way. Or as F Sinatra once sang, "I'll do it my way".

I figure if Cain's intent was truly to see God pleased, then I think he would try again and again and again until he found what would please God, not be mad that God wasn't pleased.

Why do you seem to believe in so much luck?

I don't believe those who know God need to guess what pleases God. God desires mercy and understanding not sacrifice. He loves a cheerful giver not one that gives grudgingly.

OK, perfect. And, just HOW do we know this? Because we have been instructed. Would you have known that all by yourself? Of course not.

He loves that when I see a beggar, I open my heart as wide as I open my wallet.

Were you just lucky or did you sneak a peek at James 2?

I believe such offerings will be seen with favor by faith and not by rules.

Uh, excuse me here, but Abel did believe what God said about offerings. And he was obedient to the rules. He truly showed faith in what God said.

But Cain? Not so much. He went his own way, or did it his own way.

Jesus said make peace with your brother before you bring your gift to the altar.

Right. And that, btw, is an instruction. Do you believe what Jesus said to do? That's what Abel did. And Cain didn't do.

Take the last seat at the table. If asked for your coat give them your shirt as well. And don't do it to look good.

More instructions.

Moreover as pertaining to looking good, God sees our hearts more than we do. He knows what ails us. God needs nothing from us because He owns everything including us. Whatever we have to offer Him comes from His providence in the first place, even our own empathy and goodness are His attributes He bestows upon us. Abel probably considered this, so he prepared an offering of the best he had to give, which was a true worship. The spirit of an offering is to first be thankful to God through the acknowledgment of His providence that upholds us in all things, especially His Spirit. We need to be thankful to God we are even thankful to God.

It seems you must think that God just plopped humans down on earth and watched to see how they would act, all without any instructions.

Wow.

 

[childeye 2]

I think you have made a real stretch here, with a huge helping of presumption.

The ONLY WAY God would be pleased with an offering is if He gave instructions as to what pleases Him.

Love does what is right by it's nature wherefore God defines the good. I believe Abel's desire to please God was purely heartfelt and not done for himself to look good or out of any pretense.

This is what I said: I think God liked Abel's offering more because he gave the best of what he had to give out of a pure heart that wanted only to see God pleased. I don't think Cain did that.

This is why I think that Abel brought the best of what he had to give: 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. This is also what the principle of a first fruits offering is. That the first and the best should be given to God acknowledging in thankfulness that all that we have comes from His providence.

You're just betting that Abel lucked out and guessed right, basically.

No, I'm clearly saying that Abel was pure of heart, not lucky.

I suggest you read Gen 4:7 again. God even explained WHY He wasn't pleased with Cain's offering. He didn't do what was right.

Respectfully God said, If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? This does not explain why God wasn't pleased, it only indicates that what Cain offered was not pleasing and it also suggests that he should try again.

Why would you presume to think that God gave no instructions and then graded the brothers on how they would respond?

Respectfully, I didn't presume anything, and I would also point out that this is also why I did not presume they were given instructions what to give. It's more likely this is a freewill offering. To be precise I don't believe they were instructed what to give so as to please God. The fact both brothers showed up at the same time indicates they were instructed to make an offering.

The semantics show that Cain didn't deliberately try to give a bad offering since he was angry that it wasn't pleasing. God sees into the heart. Abel gave of a pure heartfelt thankfulness.

The idea that God tests and grades people in a competition of who is the better person according to who is following the rules, is similar to the carnal view of the Pharisees who are trying to establish their own righteousness through the works of the law. I believe Cain had this outlook, which is why he felt put down. There's a difference between being truly thankful to God for his providence and trying to look good for pride's sake. Cain exhibited the mindset that he wanted to look good in a competition with his brother.

v.7 only makes sense IF IF IF God had given them both instructions. And Cain did his own thing. Or as the Fleetwood Mac once sung, "go your own way". And Cain did.

In the sense that Cain was doing it to look good, and therefore it was more about his self and not about being thankful, yes you could say he went his own way serving his self. It makes no sense to me that following instructions about what to offer, will make someone grateful.

I'm sure you are aware that some people just hate being told what to do.

Of course, I know the spiritual blindness of being carnal firsthand. As such I can tell you these are the same type of people who would hypocritically think it would be great to be able to tell everyone else what to do.

Yep, he went his own way. Or as F Sinatra once sang, "I'll do it my way".

Yes I think for Cain it was about Cain and not about being thankful to God.

Why do you seem to believe in so much luck?

If I'm giving an offering to show that I am thankful to God and for God, God knows if I'm truly thankful or whether I'm giving it only half hearted. So it's not like I'm saying Cain needs to try over and over till he gets lucky. I'm saying that he needs to find how to give in the right spirit.

OK, perfect. And, just HOW do we know this? Because we have been instructed. Would you have known that all by yourself? Of course not.

The Word of God is the Light of the soul. It's not true because the bible says it. The bible says it because it's true. We comprehend this through faith. God's Spirit defines the good. Come on, you've felt mercy and compassion for others.

Were you just lucky or did you sneak a peek at James 2?

This is a loaded question. No I did not peek at James 2 nor was I lucky. Through faith I know that God defines the good. I have empathy. I don't need to read rules to tell me when it's time to feel compassion or thankfulness.

Uh, excuse me here, but Abel did believe what God said about offerings. And he was obedient to the rules. He truly showed faith in what God said.

But Cain? Not so much. He went his own way, or did it his own way.

Well it's remains an assertion that they were instructed what to give. If it's a freewill offering there are no instructions what to give.

Right. And that, btw, is an instruction. Do you believe what Jesus said to do? That's what Abel did. And Cain didn't do.

Yes I believe what Jesus said to do because it's the right thing to do. Certainly there's some measure of faith which is given to me to believe with. Wherefore Cain was listening to sin which appeals to carnal vanity.

More instructions.

Which are only understood through valuing godliness as coming from God.

It seems you must think that God just plopped humans down on earth and watched to see how they would act, all without any instructions.

Wow.

I believe God breathed into mankind His Spirit and His Character. I believe they were instructed not to eat from the tree in the garden. I believe we all have heard the same conversation with the devil in some form and have been deceived at times, just like Cain was.

 

[John Mullally]

This is a famous quote by CS Lewis on Free Will:

“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

childeye2, Instead of responding to your long post, I will focus on the last paragraph.

I believe God breathed into mankind His Spirit and His Character. I believe they were instructed not to eat from the tree in the garden. I believe we all have heard the same conversation with the devil in some form and have been deceived at times, just like Cain was.

Well, this explains a lot. You have totally misunderstood everything about the indwelling Holy Spirit. God NEVER breathed "into mankind His Spirit and His Character". Where do you get such things? Certainly not the Bible.

Because of your total confusion about biblical things, I don't see how further discussion will be profitable for either of us. There's just too much learning needed to get you up to speed regarding truth.

 

[childeye 2]

childeye2, Instead of responding to your long post, I will focus on the last paragraph.

Well, this explains a lot. You have totally misunderstood everything about the indwelling Holy Spirit. God NEVER breathed "into mankind His Spirit and His Character". Where do you get such things? Certainly not the Bible.

Because of your total confusion about biblical things, I don't see how further discussion will be profitable for either of us. There's just too much learning needed to get you up to speed regarding truth.

I have the Holy Spirit of Truth as my guide and teacher. I'm certain that the Spirit of Love inside me is God and this is corroborated In 1 John 4:7, "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God". I don't understand why that is confusing. Most likely you are misunderstanding what I'm saying.

If I may also point out, the scriptures also say mankind was made in the image of God and that God is Spirit. Wherefore Adam was spiritually called a son of God, which means Adam was made a living soul having God's Spiritual Character dwelling within him. Where exactly you think the empathy in mankind came from I do not know. Do you think Adam didn't feel/know Love? Surely you have felt compassion for others without being instructed to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have the Holy Spirit of Truth as my guide and teacher.

Everyone who has placed their trust in Jesus as their Savior has the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

Now, do you know WHEN you are grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:29) the Holy Spirit? Recall that Paul told believers to NOT do these things.

Do you know how to be filled with the Holy Spirit?

 

[childeye 2]

Everyone who has placed their trust in Jesus as their Savior has the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

Now, do you know WHEN you are grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:29) the Holy Spirit? Recall that Paul told believers to NOT do these things.

Personally, I believe grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit means resisting the Holy Spirit's counsel in some capacity knowingly. Trying to get rid of some aspect of carnality that is harmful and having to be told over and over by the Holy Spirit about it, would be emblematic of this. I know therefore WHEN I grieve the Holy Spirit in that sense. This doesn't mean the Holy Spirit doesn't let me know WHEN I'm grieving Him, as if I set out to do so intentionally. I'd point out there's a reason God is long suffering towards us, and our being concerned is a good thing for all involved.

Do you know how to be filled with the Holy Spirit?

Difficult question to answer given that the Holy Spirit is both a Person and a gift that is received through faith and cannot be procured so that no flesh may glory. The perfecting of the transformation into the likeness of Christ would be the definitive purpose of being filled. If you're asking how I know when I've fully become like Christ, I don't know. If your asking me how to experience something fulfilling to that end, I would say seeing to the needs of the poor, taking care of the weak, volunteering at a homeless shelter or an old folks home, would be good examples of ways to be filled with God's Spirit in that sense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Now, do you know WHEN you are grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:29) the Holy Spirit? Recall that Paul told believers to NOT do these things."

Personally, I believe grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit means resisting the Holy Spirit's counsel in some capacity knowingly.

What makes sense to me is that grieving the Spirit involves direct unconfessed sin. Quenching the Spirit is involved with erroneous doctrines and principles; basically unbiblical things.

I asked:
"Do you know how to be filled with the Holy Spirit?"

Difficult question to answer given that the Holy Spirit is both a Person and a gift that is received through faith and cannot be procured so that no flesh may glory.

Could you explain what is meant by "procured"? Thanks.

The perfecting of the transformation into the likeness of Christ would be the definitive purpose of being filled.

Correct.

If you're asking how I know when I've fully become like Christ, I don't know.

Paul directly commands believers to be filled with the Spirit. This would mean that it is something that believers need to obey. So we need to know what that means and how to obey the command.

Recall when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray. After reciting the "Disciples' prayer" (not the Lord's Prayer), He then taught them these principles:

“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Luke 11:9-13

Now, when Jesus said this, very few people in the OT were indwelt with the Spirit, much less were filled with the Spirit. The NT differentiates between the indwelling and the filling. In the indwelling, the Holy Spirit actually resides in the believer.

The filling of the Spirit in the NT is mentioned in the actions of believers according to God's will.

Now, given what Jesus taught His disciples and asking and receiving, and Paul's command to be filled, let's consider 1 John 5:14,15
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

So, first, we must ask "according to God's will" before He hears us. We know it is God's will for every believer to be filled with the Spirit. We also know from other verses that God only hears the believer when their sin has been confessed.

Psa 66:18 - If I regard iniquity (sin) in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Now, v.15 teaches that if we confess our sins, we know that He hears us, and we know that we HAVE what we asked of Him (when we ask according to His will).

So, first we need to have all our sins confessed, (1 John 1:9). Then we ask God to be filled with the Spirit.

 

[childeye 2]

I asked:
"Now, do you know WHEN you are grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:29) the Holy Spirit? Recall that Paul told believers to NOT do these things."

What makes sense to me is that grieving the Spirit involves direct unconfessed sin.

By "direct unconfessed sin", I take you to mean, knowing of the sin and not confessing it. To be clear, to me 'confession' implies 'admitting' to the sin wherefore acknowledging the need to be cleansed. If I'm reading your meaning correctly, your description of what grieving the Spirit means could be a similar sentiment to my saying, "Trying to get rid of some aspect of carnality that is harmful and having to be told over and over by the Holy Spirit about it...". Reading my sentence over again I now realize that I should have indicated more clearly that it's the Holy Spirit that is trying to get rid of the aspect of carnality that is harmful to myself and others. The difference in my sentiment is I want to be clear that it's the Holy Spirit that is the one that convicts me of sin so that I can agree and admit/confess the sin. To me, it is God Who sanctifies me.

Quenching the Spirit is involved with erroneous doctrines and principles; basically unbiblical things.

I'm not sure how you arrived at this summation in the context of 1 Thessalonians 5. However it seems to me that quenching the fire is to somehow no longer care about being corrected by the Spirit of Truth, and I could see how that would inevitably manifest false doctrine.

I asked:
"Do you know how to be filled with the Holy Spirit?"

Could you explain what is meant by "procured"? Thanks.

I mean that the Holy Spirit is only apprehended through faith. The Holy Spirit is a gift, wherefore it cannot be bought nor earned. It is my intent to indicate that no flesh has place to glory. For concerning the righteousness that God has given us, it is the Holy Spirit that is the impetus. Otherwise, we become vain rather than thankful for His wisdom.

Paul directly commands believers to be filled with the Spirit. This would mean that it is something that believers need to obey. So we need to know what that means and how to obey the command.

Respectfully, I don't view Paul's saying to be filled with the Spirit as a command so as to be saying we can make the Holy Spirit fill us. I take his sentiments as a directive to be astutely and diligently aware that we are continually walking in the Light that the Spirit is. The context of Paul's meaning can be ascertained by examining his thought process in the prior verses:
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Recall when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray. After reciting the "Disciples' prayer" (not the Lord's Prayer), He then taught them these principles:

“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Luke 11:9-13

Now, when Jesus said this, very few people in the OT were indwelt with the Spirit, much less were filled with the Spirit. The NT differentiates between the indwelling and the filling. In the indwelling, the Holy Spirit actually resides in the believer.

The filling of the Spirit in the NT is mentioned in the actions of believers according to God's will.

Now, given what Jesus taught His disciples and asking and receiving, and Paul's command to be filled, let's consider 1 John 5:14,15
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

So, first, we must ask "according to God's will" before He hears us. We know it is God's will for every believer to be filled with the Spirit. We also know from other verses that God only hears the believer when their sin has been confessed.

Psa 66:18 - If I regard iniquity (sin) in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Now, v.15 teaches that if we confess our sins, we know that He hears us, and we know that we HAVE what we asked of Him (when we ask according to His will).

So, first we need to have all our sins confessed, (1 John 1:9). Then we ask God to be filled with the Spirit.

There's a lot of good teaching in these words. I have found that Christ's words about asking and receiving are an inspiration for my faith and provide the reason for assurance. It makes perfect sense that God can't cleanse me if I do not care about or admit to something wrong within me. And therefore confessing/admitting to sin and asking to be cleansed would be according to His will. The asking to be cleansed would also acknowledge that it is God Who sanctifies me. The words seek ye first the righteousness of the kingdom of God came to mind when reading this part of your post.

However there are two points I would like to make. The first is that the promise of the New Testament is one that was made to Abraham, and what I have received in Christ and the Holy Spirit is due to God's faithfulness to keep His promise. The second is that in fulfillment of that promise, it's my personal testimony that it's The Holy Spirit that convicts me of sin that I otherwise wouldn't even see so as to confess it. This is important to note so that as I said above, no flesh may glory.

Good post.

 

[FreeGrace2]

By "direct unconfessed sin", I take you to mean, knowing of the sin and not confessing it. To be clear, to me 'confession' implies 'admitting' to the sin wherefore acknowledging the need to be cleansed.[/QOUTE]
Agreed!

If I'm reading your meaning correctly, your description of what grieving the Spirit means could be a similar sentiment to my saying, "Trying to get rid of some aspect of carnality that is harmful and having to be told over and over by the Holy Spirit about it...". Reading my sentence over again I now realize that I should have indicated more clearly that it's the Holy Spirit that is trying to get rid of the aspect of carnality that is harmful to myself and others. The difference in my sentiment is I want to be clear that it's the Holy Spirit that is the one that convicts me of sin so that I can agree and admit/confess the sin. To me, it is God Who sanctifies me.

Agreed!

I'm not sure how you arrived at this summation in the context of 1 Thessalonians 5. However it seems to me that quenching the fire is to somehow no longer care about being corrected by the Spirit of Truth, and I could see how that would inevitably manifest false doctrine.

Exactly.

Respectfully, I don't view Paul's saying to be filled with the Spirit as a command so as to be saying we can make the Holy Spirit fill us.

The Greek is a command; it is in the imperative mood, which means it is a command.

However, to be filled with the Spirit isn't anything we 'make' the Spirit do, but rather, it is OUR submission to Him. We are yielded or submitted to Him when we are filled with Him.

[QUOTEI take his sentiments as a directive to be astutely and diligently aware that we are continually walking in the Light that the Spirit is.

However, we cannot be filled with the Spirit when we are carnal, sinning, self centered. Hence, the need to be submitted or yielded to the Spirit, by means of His filling.

To me, that means being under His influence. Recall that Eph 5:18 compares the filling of the Spirit with being "drunk with wine". Being drunk is being "under the influence of" and we all know how that works out with alcohol. So Paul is basically saying, instead of being under the influence of wine, be under the influence of the Spirit.

The context of Paul's meaning can be ascertained by examining his thought process in the prior verses:
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

There's a lot of good teaching in these words.

Amen!

I have found that Christ's words about asking and receiving are an inspiration for my faith and provide the reason for assurance. It makes perfect sense that God can't cleanse me if I do not care about or admit to something wrong within me. And therefore confessing/admitting to sin and asking to be cleansed would be according to His will. The asking to be cleansed would also acknowledge that it is God Who sanctifies me. The words seek ye first the righteousness of the kingdom of God came to mind when reading this part of your post.[/QUOTE]

However there are two points I would like to make. The first is that the promise of the New Testament is one that was made to Abraham, and what I have received in Christ and the Holy Spirit is due to God's faithfulness to keep His promise.

Amen!

The second is that in fulfillment of that promise, it's my personal testimony that it's The Holy Spirit that convicts me of sin that I otherwise wouldn't even see so as to confess it. This is important to note so that as I said above, no flesh may glory.

Good post.

You're welcome!

 

[childeye 2]

You're welcome!

Just to make sure. Are you agreeing that we cannot admit/confess our sin to God without His first convincing us of our sin? To rephrase. Do you believe that there is a such thing as subjugation/slavery to sin? If so, then when we are in that sinful condition and subject to sin, do you agree that it's possible we do not see our subjugation because we think it's our free will to sin rather than sin's will working within us?

I think we need to qualify our terms to understand one another. I'm saying that there is a blindness in mankind that believes we are free to decide to do evil/sin because we are also free to decide not to. Note the difference between these two statements:
1) We need to first confess/admit our sins and our deliberate wickedness, before God will have anything to do with us.
2) We can't confess/admit our sins unless the Holy Spirit first convicts us of sin and reveals to us our wickedness.

Above, #1 expresses that we know our sin, and #2 expresses that we do not.

Now with #1 and #2 in mind, look at these scripture which I believe speaks to (2) as being correct:
Romans:
2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

John 9:
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just to make sure. Are you agreeing that we cannot admit/confess our sin to God without His first convincing us of our sin?

Jesus said the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. I think that includes believers.

To rephrase. Do you believe that there is a such thing as subjugation/slavery to sin? If so, then when we are in that sinful condition and subject to sin, do you agree that we cannot see our subjugation because we think it's our free will to sin rather than sin's will working within us?

Yes, Paul wrote about slavery to sin. I believe Rom 6 is dynamic rather than an describing a saved and an unsaved state. The believer has a choice as to whom he/she "presents his/her body"; either to sin or to righteousness.

When a believer sins, they HAVE presented themself to sin.

I think we need to qualify our terms to understand one another. I'm saying that there is a blindness in mankind that believes we are free to decide to do evil/sin because we are also free to decide not to.

I don't believe that unbelievers are in a constant state of sinning, but they are still lost and in need of saving. And I do believe that every person, saved and unsaved, have choices to make.

Note the difference between these two statements:
1) We need to first confess/admit our sins and our deliberate wickedness, before God will have anything to do with us.
2) We can't confess/admit our sins unless the Holy Spirit first convicts us of sin and reveals to us our wickedness.

Above, #1 expresses that we know our sin, and #2 expresses that we do not.

But if the Holy Spirit "convicts us of sin and reveals our wickedness", that means we DO know our sin. So I don't see any difference between the 2.

Now look at these scripture which I believe speaks to (2) as being correct:
Romans:
2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

John 9:
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Again, I don't see any real difference between your 2 points. Other than #1 didn't mention the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean we know our sin apart from the Spirit.

 

[childeye 2]

But if the Holy Spirit "convicts us of sin and reveals our wickedness", that means we DO know our sin.

But if we 'think' we all know our sin apart from the Holy Spirit and subsequently imagine that all people deliberately choose to be wicked, then we are unthankful to God. Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But if we 'think' we all know our sin apart from the Holy Spirit and subsequently imagine that all people deliberately choose to be wicked, then we are unthankful to God.

How can a believer be "apart from the Holy Spirit". He is the One who convicts us.

However, I do believe it is possible to burn our consciences and so be "immune" from conviction. Of course, such believers won't be confessing their sins.

Also, there is the fact that some believers consider themselves to have attained "sinless perfection", or that they simply sin no longer. I believe that would fulfill quenching the Spirit, per 1 Thess 5:19.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

This is speaking specifically about unbelievers.

There is no issue about unbelievers confessing their sins. And it wouldn't matter if any did. They would still be unsaved and going to hell.

 

[childeye 2]

How can a believer be "apart from the Holy Spirit". He is the One who convicts us.

However, I do believe it is possible to burn our consciences and so be "immune" from conviction. Of course, such believers won't be confessing their sins.

Also, there is the fact that some believers consider themselves to have attained "sinless perfection", or that they simply sin no longer. I believe that would fulfill quenching the Spirit, per 1 Thess 5:19.

I agree with these sentiments. It seems to me that we tend to forget where we have fallen from and where we have been delivered from. We need to be thankful to God we're even thankful to God.

This is speaking specifically about unbelievers.

There is no issue about unbelievers confessing their sins. And it wouldn't matter if any did. They would still be unsaved and going to hell.

Romans 1 in general is speaking to believers about why there is the wrath of God, what manifested in mankind after being given over to the lust of the flesh, and why we have no place to judge others since we are the same as they. It is meant to show that apart from God's Spirit we all become wicked. We should be thankful in all things to God. We should articulate the need to confess sin and forgive sin in a manner that portrays God's Holy Spirit as being the One that enables us to do so.

 

[RickReads]

How can a believer be "apart from the Holy Spirit". He is the One who convicts us.

However, I do believe it is possible to burn our consciences and so be "immune" from conviction. Of course, such believers won't be confessing their sins.

Also, there is the fact that some believers consider themselves to have attained "sinless perfection", or that they simply sin no longer. I believe that would fulfill quenching the Spirit, per 1 Thess 5:19.


This is speaking specifically about unbelievers.

There is no issue about unbelievers confessing their sins. And it wouldn't matter if any did. They would still be unsaved and going to hell.

If an unbeliever confessed their sin it wouldn`t matter? I think I disagree.