Some don't understand Romans 3:31. Here is a challenge.

[JohnRabbit]

I never argue that those opposed to the TEN Commandments will change their POV due to participation on a discussion board - I agree it is highly unlikely that it happens that way.

yes, i'll concede that point!

But this thread is focused on Romans 3 and frankly Romans 2 and 3 are "home base" territory for the pro-Law-of-God POV. Under some conditions I would have been tempted to PAY one of them to start such a thread - much less to have them do it of their own free will!!

it is interesting to see them "try" to discuss this, as they would never address this if ASKED. great point!

Notice how often Frogster wants us to focus on Romans 4 or Gal 3?

i've noticed. it's sad, nevertheless, in a poetic justice kind of way, isn't it?

The fact is that a focus on Romans 3 is entirely in favor to the TEN Commandments, knowingly or not.

This thread topic is a "gift" that is hard to pass up!

yes it is. it's like watching fish flap outside of water!

 

[JohnRabbit]

Question for you..

You say the laws are written on our hearts, which ones?

if the same laws applied, we would have to follow every law externally, if every law were written internally. No?

Then why don't SDA folks, keep feasts, are those not written on hearts, while somehow laws that say i can;t have shrimp scampi are?

See what i mean? Under the law they could not pick-n-choose, they had to follow all of the laws.

So are feasts written on our hearts too? if so, you have to keep those too, you can't just select food laws.

:o I don;t keep that stuff :o, but I am not promoting the law.

PS, Hebrews was a strong rebuke to those who were seeking to go back under the Old cov!

1 Corinthians 5:6-8(NKJV)
6Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (see also lev 23:4-8 )


i'd be curious to know whom you believe "our" and "us" are?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Frogster

The law people love to quote Romans 3:31, which asks a question right in it which Paul answered in Rom 4, using the Psalms and Genesis to establish the OT, the “law”, the OT can be called law, he did not go into the Mosaic code to answer the question in 3:31..


Rom 3;31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.


We know that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12, then right in Rom 4:14, he says the Mosaic law voids the promise and faith.

So my question is, how does this justifying faith of Jew and Greek, that is what the faith word of 31 is about, establish the Mosaic law that voids the promise, and is not of faith?

How can that which voids, also establish?


I repeat, Paul answered 31 by going into the OT, Genesis and the Psalms to establish that “law”, nomos can be used for the OT in general. Paul went there in Rom 4 to answer the question of 31, showing faith justification of Jew and Greek, Abraham and David, to answer the question, he did not go into the Mosaic code to answer his question. In 4:3, asks, “what do the scriptures say”. Guess what, he did not quote the 10 commandments in Rom 4 after asking what the text says. Did he? nope!

So, my challenge to you is this. In light of what Paul said, please contradict him, and somehow show how the Mosaic law is established in the Justification of Jew and Greek by faith.

Now if you want to read it like this, fine..


3:31. Do we overthrow the OT psalms and Genesis (called the law) by the justifying faith of Jew and Gentile? No, we uphold the OT, the gospel was upheld/hidden in the OT all along according to Rom 16, and Hab 2:4, as I, Paul quoted in Rom 1:17.
​

The pro law folks read

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: no keeping the law is required.

Nothing else in Romans or other writings of Paul have any bearing on this in their thinking.

They must think that faith is the mere acknowledgment of God. Or to say it another way faith is only believing there's a god.

I say so what even the devils believe that.

Sorry. The devil is a murderer from the beginning. In lame man terms, murder is wrong. One point for the falsely damned "law folks".

Love or leave Christianity. God is love.

Great verse! I am sure the Judean religiouos rulers that heard Jesus say this to them weren't to happy about it
Btw, did you know the Jews of today have no concept of the hell, [or the Devil I think], that Christians and Muslims believe in? Why is that?

John 8:44
`Ye out of a father, the Devil are, and the desires/lust of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.
That one a man-killer was from beginning and in the truth not has stood, that not is truth in him............

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS AND ABRAHAM VS THE OC JUDEAN RULERS

LUKE 16:
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' "
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore! father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' "
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.

.

 

[BobRyan]

I thought some here are getting paid to post. Not saying you pay anyone.

I am just happy to have someone so willing to bring up the subject of Romans 3 and ask that we look at the "details" closely.

Could not have asked for more than this!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

I never argue that those opposed to the TEN Commandments will change their POV due to participation on a discussion board - I agree it is highly unlikely that it happens that way.

But this thread is focused on Romans 3 and frankly Romans 2 and 3 are "home base" territory for the pro-Law-of-God POV. Under some conditions I would have been tempted to PAY one of them to start such a thread - much less to have them do it of their own free will!!

Notice how often Frogster wants us to focus on Romans 4 or Gal 3? The fact is that a focus on Romans 3 is entirely in favor to the TEN Commandments, knowingly or not.

This thread topic is a "gift" that is hard to pass up
=========================

​

green above, it is a gift for me

Which is even better that we should both be so happy to focus on Romans 3.

Does not get any better than that -- "more Romans 3 please".

green above, it is a gift for me, anyone can see you are not takining my points in in a clear cohesive manner, so now I will prove it more, going post by post, thought for thought, not these long scrolling posts, that say alot, but don't pinpoint the issue.[/quote]

If you choose to simply ignore the "details" brought up in the numbered points - given in what you call "long posts" then you will find these same irrefutable points coming up again - as they go unanswered and as they remain -- irrefutable in evidence of the context and exegeticaly correct meaning of Romans 3.

#3 You said rom 3 was about sin and morality, so it can't be about Passover,

And I proved it in Rom 3:19-26 -- remember?

I will quote that again if you think it is needed. Let me know.

green above, it is a gift for me, anyone can see you are not takining my points in in a clear cohesive manner, so now I will prove it more, going post by post, thought for thought, not these long scrolling posts, that say alot, but don't pinpoint the issue.


#3 You said rom 3 was about sin and morality, so it can't be about Passover, all while you say it is about the Sabbath! How does one even supposed to believe your contradictory statement!? Don't you see the contradiction?

======================================here we saw that it is the moral law that defines sin for all the world in Romans 3 -- not the passover law.

Originally Posted by BobRyan The points are

1. The phrase "Law and the Prophets" is always used to mean "scripture" as in what we today call OT "scripture.

2. Rom 3 makes the case that all of OT scripture is a witness to the LAW - the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin and in need of salvation. Obviously that is not the function of Pslams for example. And 2Cor 3 states clearly it is the LAW on stone tablets that does that.

3. Paul the points to that same law and says our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW" Rom 3:31 AND he says the LAW is "written on the heart and on the mind" Heb 8 under the NEW Covenant.

The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.

Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.

2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away

It is THAT Law which condemns the entire world as lost sinners according to Paul. The LAW external on tablets of stone only - shows us to be sinners. But under the NEW Covenant that Law is written on the tablets of the human heart - written on "heart and mind" according to Heb 8.

context, context context.


========================== and here we saw how law and grace fit together.
In Rom 3 the term "LAW AND the Prophets" is the NT phrase used to mean "scripture" - as has been stated repeatedly.

3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

"Scripture" bears witness to the righteousness of God in the OT. The point is clear.

like this. Read 3:21-26

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


The Atoning sacrifice for sin, the payment of our debt demanded by the Law - upheld in the death of Christ.
"Just and the Justifier" - both LAW and Grace combined.
"All have sinned" - the moral law of God defines sin - and condemns all
"Righteousness of God Through FAITH IN Jesus Christ" The means of salvation is not ever said to be the moral Law.
"Justified freely by His Grace" no claim made that the moral law justifies.


31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Salvation

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am just happy to have someone so willing to bring up the subject of Romans 3 and ask that we look at the "details" closely.

Could not have asked for more than this!

in Christ,

Bob

Now, if we could only get the unbelieving non-Christian Jews to read it, along with the rest of the Christian NT

http://www.christianforums.com/t7364825/#post51584575
Book of Romans verse by verse study

http://www.christianforums.com/t7364825-52/#post51967619
Chapter 3

Last verse of Chapt 3

#2476 used 163/158/157 depending on greek text used. Slight variance in the form of this in the W-H and T-R.
Some translations put the article "the" before law in this verse though it is not in the Greek

3:31 Law then we are nullifying thru the faith? no may it be becoming!
but law we are upholding/establishing/istwmen <2476> (5719)

Romans 3:31 nomon oun katargoumen dia thV pistewV mh genoito
alla nomon *istwmen

Strong's Number G2476 matches the Greek &#7989;&#963;&#964;&#951;&#956;&#953; (hist&#275;mi), which occurs 163 times in 152 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

2476 histemi {his'-tay-mee} a prolonged form of a primary stao {stah'-o} (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); TDNT - 7:638,1082; v
AV - stand 116, set 11, establish 5, stand still 4, stand by 3, misc 17, vr stand 2; 158
1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set 1a) to bid to stand by, [set up] 1a1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin; 1a2) to place 1b) to make firm, fix establish 1b1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place 1b2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety 1b3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand

 

[BobRyan]

ok Bob, post by post, so everything does not get all muddled and diffused.

Simple question, needing a simple amnswer. What 2 laws are apart from each other? It has to be 2 different ones, because if it is apart by something, it can't be witnessed by the same thing. What 2 laws are apart from each other here? Keep it simple please.


3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it&#8212;

No part of the text in Romans 3 says "two laws apart from each other" as I think we both agree. Rather what we saw there is the harmony between Law and Grace - Law is not a means to become saved. So no conflict.

========================== and here we saw how law and grace fit together.
In Rom 3 the term "LAW AND the Prophets" is the NT phrase used to mean "scripture" - as has been stated repeatedly.

3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it&#8212;

"Scripture" bears witness to the righteousness of God in the OT. The point is clear.

like this. Read 3:21-26

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


The Atoning sacrifice for sin, the payment of our debt demanded by the Law - upheld in the death of Christ.
"Just and the Justifier" - both LAW and Grace combined.
"All have sinned" - the moral law of God defines sin - and condemns all
"Righteousness of God Through FAITH IN Jesus Christ" The means of salvation is not ever said to be the moral Law.
"Justified freely by His Grace" no claim made that the moral law justifies.


31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Salvation

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

The points are

1. The phrase "Law and the Prophets" is always used to mean "scripture" as in what we today call OT "scripture.

2. Rom 3 makes the case that all of OT scripture is a witness to the LAW - the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin and in need of salvation. Obviously that is not the function of Pslams for example. And 2Cor 3 states clearly it is the LAW on stone tablets that does that.

3. Paul the points to that same law and says our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW" Rom 3:31 AND he says the LAW is "written on the heart and on the mind" Heb 8 under the NEW Covenant.

The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.

Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.

2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away

It is THAT Law which condemns the entire world as lost sinners according to Paul. The LAW external on tablets of stone only - shows us to be sinners. But under the NEW Covenant that Law is written on the tablets of the human heart - written on "heart and mind" according to Heb 8.

context, context context.
​

This Romans 3 LAW is specifically the Ten Commandments as so many of even the pro-sunday scholars have affirmed.

Green above. But the phrase "the law" can also mean scripture, as well as the Law and the Prophets can, but in Rom 3:31, you just want it to mean the code

Paul sets the context for the term himself in Romans 3

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
...

(So then the moral law of God is being affirmed by all of scripture "the Law and the Prophets")

29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

So then -- context, context, context.

Green above. But the phrase "the law" can also mean scripture, as well as the Law and the Prophets can, but in Rom 3:31, you just want it to mean the code, so you prove my point, all while argue against my point, that Paul was upholding different parts of scripture, that being Gen, the Psalms, and Hab 2:4, while you insist the law word in 31, is the stones! So you are arguing from 2 sides!

No I am not arguing from Hab 2 ( a case of scripture giving testimony to the righteousness of God) or from the Psalms (another place where scripture gives testimony) - I am making my case from Romans 3 where Paul says the term for Law is specific to that law that condemns the entire world under sin - and defines what sin is.

And Paul says in 2Cor 3 - that the law that condemns all - the law of death - is written on stone tablets.

The point remains -- so far.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Frogster

Question for you..

You say the laws are written on our hearts, which ones?

if the same laws applied, we would have to follow every law externally, if every law were written internally. No?

Then why don't SDA folks, keep feasts, are those not written on hearts, while somehow laws that say i can;t have shrimp scampi are?

See what i mean? Under the law they could not pick-n-choose, they had to follow all of the laws.

So are feasts written on our hearts too? if so, you have to keep those too, you can't just select food laws.

:o I don;t keep that stuff :o, but I am not promoting the law.

PS, Hebrews was a strong rebuke to those who were seeking to go back under the Old cov!
​

1 Corinthians 5:6-8(NKJV)
6Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (see also lev 23:4-8 )


i'd be curious to know whom you believe "our" and "us" are?

Good question...........

Frog vs Rabbit......will have to order frog legs and rabbit meat next time I go out ehehe


.

 

[Frogster]

1 Corinthians 5:6-8(NKJV)
6Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (see also lev 23:4-8 )


i'd be curious to know whom you believe "our" and "us" are?

I will easily rebut this, after you recant your opening comment about it being a waste of time talking here, or whatever you said.

 

[Frogster]

Great verse! I am sure the Judean religiouos rulers that heard Jesus say this to them weren't to happy about it
Btw, did you know the Jews of today have no concept of the hell, [or the Devil I think], that Christians and Muslims believe in? Why is that?

John 8:44
`Ye out of a father, the Devil are, and the desires/lust of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.
That one a man-killer was from beginning and in the truth not has stood, that not is truth in him............

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS AND ABRAHAM VS THE OC JUDEAN RULERS

LUKE 16:
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' "
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore! father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' "
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.

.

you say rich good stuff lambster!

 

[Frogster]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

I never argue that those opposed to the TEN Commandments will change their POV due to participation on a discussion board - I agree it is highly unlikely that it happens that way.

But this thread is focused on Romans 3 and frankly Romans 2 and 3 are "home base" territory for the pro-Law-of-God POV. Under some conditions I would have been tempted to PAY one of them to start such a thread - much less to have them do it of their own free will!!

Notice how often Frogster wants us to focus on Romans 4 or Gal 3? The fact is that a focus on Romans 3 is entirely in favor to the TEN Commandments, knowingly or not.

This thread topic is a "gift" that is hard to pass up
=========================

​

Which is even better that we should both be so happy to focus on Romans 3.

Does not get any better than that -- "more Romans 3 please".

green above, it is a gift for me, anyone can see you are not takining my points in in a clear cohesive manner, so now I will prove it more, going post by post, thought for thought, not these long scrolling posts, that say alot, but don't pinpoint the issue.

If you choose to simply ignore the "details" brought up in the numbered points - given in what you call "long posts" then you will find these same irrefutable points coming up again - as they go unanswered and as they remain -- irrefutable in evidence of the context and exegeticaly correct meaning of Romans 3.



And I proved it in Rom 3:19-26 -- remember?

I will quote that again if you think it is needed. Let me know.




======================================here we saw that it is the moral law that defines sin for all the world in Romans 3 -- not the passover law.

Originally Posted by BobRyan The points are

1. The phrase "Law and the Prophets" is always used to mean "scripture" as in what we today call OT "scripture.

2. Rom 3 makes the case that all of OT scripture is a witness to the LAW - the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin and in need of salvation. Obviously that is not the function of Pslams for example. And 2Cor 3 states clearly it is the LAW on stone tablets that does that.

3. Paul the points to that same law and says our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW" Rom 3:31 AND he says the LAW is "written on the heart and on the mind" Heb 8 under the NEW Covenant.

The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.

Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.

2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away

It is THAT Law which condemns the entire world as lost sinners according to Paul. The LAW external on tablets of stone only - shows us to be sinners. But under the NEW Covenant that Law is written on the tablets of the human heart - written on "heart and mind" according to Heb 8.

context, context context.


========================== and here we saw how law and grace fit together.
In Rom 3 the term "LAW AND the Prophets" is the NT phrase used to mean "scripture" - as has been stated repeatedly.

3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it&#8212;

"Scripture" bears witness to the righteousness of God in the OT. The point is clear.

like this. Read 3:21-26

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


The Atoning sacrifice for sin, the payment of our debt demanded by the Law - upheld in the death of Christ.
"Just and the Justifier" - both LAW and Grace combined.
"All have sinned" - the moral law of God defines sin - and condemns all
"Righteousness of God Through FAITH IN Jesus Christ" The means of salvation is not ever said to be the moral Law.
"Justified freely by His Grace" no claim made that the moral law justifies.


31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Salvation
[/QUOTE]













------------------------------------------------
Frog here, this posted strangely.





I pinpoint, and my posts, as the thread continues, I prove my simple points. I mean look at your answers, please with all due repsect, they are confusing and circular. Look at that, how is that a nice pleasant exchange of ideas? What are you even saying? Please.....

This verse has 2 uses of the law word, what 2 laws is Paul talking about? And how can something apart from one law, bear witness to it?

There ya go, it proves that 2 uses of law are in play, but you won't tell us what 2 laws? Why?

2 simple questions.

3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it&#8212;

 

[Frogster]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

The points are

1. The phrase "Law and the Prophets" is always used to mean "scripture" as in what we today call OT "scripture.

2. Rom 3 makes the case that all of OT scripture is a witness to the LAW - the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin and in need of salvation. Obviously that is not the function of Pslams for example. And 2Cor 3 states clearly it is the LAW on stone tablets that does that.

3. Paul the points to that same law and says our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW" Rom 3:31 AND he says the LAW is "written on the heart and on the mind" Heb 8 under the NEW Covenant.

The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.

Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.

2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away

It is THAT Law which condemns the entire world as lost sinners according to Paul. The LAW external on tablets of stone only - shows us to be sinners. But under the NEW Covenant that Law is written on the tablets of the human heart - written on "heart and mind" according to Heb 8.

context, context context.
​

This Romans 3 LAW is specifically the Ten Commandments as so many of even the pro-sunday scholars have affirmed.




Paul sets the context for the term himself in Romans 3

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
...

(So then the moral law of God is being affirmed by all of scripture "the Law and the Prophets")

29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

So then -- context, context, context.




No I am not arguing from Hab 2 ( a case of scripture giving testimony to the righteousness of God) or from the Psalms (another place where scripture gives testimony) - I am making my case from Romans 3 where Paul says the term for Law is specific to that law that condemns the entire world under sin - and defines what sin is.

And Paul says in 2Cor 3 - that the law that condemns all - the law of death - is written on stone tablets.

The point remains -- so far.

in Christ,

Bob

yeah, yeah, yeah..

Bob, will you just do me a favor?

Just tell me how faith upholds the mosaic law, the very law that voids faith, Rom 4:14, and Gal 3:12.

Simple simple simple...

It should only take about a sentence or 2.

 

[Frogster]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

The points are

1. The phrase "Law and the Prophets" is always used to mean "scripture" as in what we today call OT "scripture.

2. Rom 3 makes the case that all of OT scripture is a witness to the LAW - the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin and in need of salvation. Obviously that is not the function of Pslams for example. And 2Cor 3 states clearly it is the LAW on stone tablets that does that.

3. Paul the points to that same law and says our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW" Rom 3:31 AND he says the LAW is "written on the heart and on the mind" Heb 8 under the NEW Covenant.

The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.

Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.

2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away

It is THAT Law which condemns the entire world as lost sinners according to Paul. The LAW external on tablets of stone only - shows us to be sinners. But under the NEW Covenant that Law is written on the tablets of the human heart - written on "heart and mind" according to Heb 8.

context, context context.
​

This Romans 3 LAW is specifically the Ten Commandments as so many of even the pro-sunday scholars have affirmed.




Paul sets the context for the term himself in Romans 3

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
...

(So then the moral law of God is being affirmed by all of scripture "the Law and the Prophets")

29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

So then -- context, context, context.




No I am not arguing from Hab 2 ( a case of scripture giving testimony to the righteousness of God) or from the Psalms (another place where scripture gives testimony) - I am making my case from Romans 3 where Paul says the term for Law is specific to that law that condemns the entire world under sin - and defines what sin is.

And Paul says in 2Cor 3 - that the law that condemns all - the law of death - is written on stone tablets.

The point remains -- so far.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, will ya just in 2 sentences tell the frog why 3:31 is about the Sabbath, but not Passover, because you said 3 is about morality and not the passover, yet you say it is about Sabbath!? Contradiciton city here!

There ya go, pinpoint time, simple, simple, simple, it should just take about 2 sentences to clear up your major contradicition.

so far you said alot, but there really is just alot of...ummmm...well, lets put it this way, no clear definitve answer.

 

[Frogster]

There we have it, in all of it's clarity, and simplicity, my 3 simple points.

How can faith uphold a law that voids it?

What 2 laws are in 3:21 that are not the same?

How can chapter 3 not be about Passover, because it's about morality, yet somehow is it about Sabath?

Why can't I just get 3 simple pinpoint sentences, ok 6 simple sentences?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Great verse! I am sure the Judean religiouos rulers that heard Jesus say this to them weren't to happy about it
Btw, did you know the Jews of today have no concept of the hell, [or the Devil I think], that Christians and Muslims believe in? Why is that?

John 8:44
`Ye out of a father, the Devil are, and the desires/lust of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.
That one a man-killer was from beginning and in the truth not has stood, that not is truth in him............

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS AND ABRAHAM VS THE OC JUDEAN RULERS

LUKE 16:
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' "
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore! father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' "
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.

​

you say rich good stuff lambster!

I like studying the rich language of the greek.

Ever notice the greek word #1276 used in Luke 16:26. It is used as "ferrying". Here is a post I made on it :

http://www.christianforums.com/t7436472-6/#post54015375
Luke 16:26 and the great "chasm/gulf".

I have a rather lenghthy study on this, what I call "Covenantle" parable in Luke 16.

Thanks for any response.

Luke 16:26
And upon all of these between us[Abraham/NC/Grace] and ye [Moses/OC/Law] a great chasm hath been established.
So that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>[Hebrews 11:29]

Hebrews 11:29
By Faith they crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry, which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVC4EGRVOg0


.

 

[Frogster]

This happens alot in debates, people won't just go thought for thought, toe to toe, so I get all of this stuff, but no clarity. People put other text in, say this and say that, but a simple question, does not get a simple definitive answer, it is a shame, because it ruins the thread, compensation is easily spotted.

Then when a poster presents it like like he is on top of it all, or he is very confident about Rom 3, and lets us know he thinks it, that is also compensation, if the poster were on top of his game, then wouldn't he like to bring down my point, on my terms? hehehehe.

Why all of these endless scrolling posts, that don't answer clearly, when if one could chop me down, using my pinpoint idea he would?

If the opponent could, he would, but he can't.

 

[Frogster]

I like studying the rich language of the greek.

Ever notice the greek word #1276 used in Luke 16:26. It is used as "ferrying". Here is a post I made on it :

http://www.christianforums.com/t7436472-6/#post54015375
Luke 16:26 and the great "chasm/gulf".



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVC4EGRVOg0


.

I don't getcha?

 

[Frogster]

In other words, if in a debate, one asks for a simple reply, and the opponent could sink him on his terms with a simple clear cohesive reply, the opponent would jump on that opporunity. Why has that not happened here?

 

[Frogster]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

The points are

1. The phrase "Law and the Prophets" is always used to mean "scripture" as in what we today call OT "scripture.

2. Rom 3 makes the case that all of OT scripture is a witness to the LAW - the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin and in need of salvation. Obviously that is not the function of Pslams for example. And 2Cor 3 states clearly it is the LAW on stone tablets that does that.

3. Paul the points to that same law and says our faith "ESTABLISHES the LAW" Rom 3:31 AND he says the LAW is "written on the heart and on the mind" Heb 8 under the NEW Covenant.

The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.

Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.

2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away

It is THAT Law which condemns the entire world as lost sinners according to Paul. The LAW external on tablets of stone only - shows us to be sinners. But under the NEW Covenant that Law is written on the tablets of the human heart - written on "heart and mind" according to Heb 8.

context, context context.
​

This Romans 3 LAW is specifically the Ten Commandments as so many of even the pro-sunday scholars have affirmed.



Paul sets the context for the term himself in Romans 3

Rom 3:19
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
...

(So then the moral law of God is being affirmed by all of scripture "the Law and the Prophets")

29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

So then -- context, context, context.




No I am not arguing from Hab 2 ( a case of scripture giving testimony to the righteousness of God) or from the Psalms (another place where scripture gives testimony) - I am making my case from Romans 3 where Paul says the term for Law is specific to that law that condemns the entire world under sin - and defines what sin is.

And Paul says in 2Cor 3 - that the law that condemns all - the law of death - is written on stone tablets.

The point remains -- so far.

in Christ,

Bob

lol! green above, you say Romans 3 is the 10 commanments, then you quote 3:19 that has the law word in it. Dude, speaking of scholars, they all note that the 10 some odd verses before, 3:10-18, were not the the commandments.

So then when paul says LAW in 3:19, it was not the 10, it was the previous verses he was talking about in 3:19, which were not the 10!


You prove my point, you just think law always is the stones, you are worng, and law in 3:31 was not the 10.