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Socialist Nationalism??? Really Vox?

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by Ana the Ist, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    This is probably just an oopsie....but still pretty hilarious...

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vo...3/national-conservatism-conference-2019-trump

    So it's an article critiquing "conservative nationalism"....and not doing a very good job of it. The argument boils down to "if you oppose illegal immigration you're racist"....which is not only wrong, it demonstrates a rather fundamental misunderstanding of what "nationalism" is.

    The hilarity ensues when they begin to talk about theoretical liberal forms of nationalism....

    LOL hmmm....last serious group of national socialists I remember weren't all that welcoming of foreigners. Who writes this stuff? And how many cereal box tops did they have to mail in for their political degree?
     
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  2. grandvizier1006

    grandvizier1006 Still a human by God's grace Supporter

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    Vox is kind of dumb. They have to go through hoops to justify certain left-wing ideas. In this case I think they kind of forgot what happens if switch nationalism and socialism around like that...
     
  3. iluvatar5150

    iluvatar5150 Well-Known Member

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    I think you’re grossly misunderstanding the subject of the article. We have a thread about it already here:
    A National Conservative Awakening

    The OP is good, and then the thread quickly goes off the rails but I’m trying to bring it back near the end.

    Anyways, this author’s assessment of the conference isn’t too far off from what I’ve read from several others across the spectrum. Even the fanboys are skeptical that anything will come of this. Part of of your complaint about their use of the word nationalism stems from an attempt by the organizers of the conference to redefine the term.
     
  4. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    Nationalsozialismus: any attempt to explain its meaning would result in someone invoking Godwin's law, I'm sure.
     
  5. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    Historically, naturalization has been possible in most societies, but nations were usually very particular in what they were looking for in new citizens. Naturalization was a rare privilege, certainly anything but a right.
     
  6. Radagast

    Radagast has left CF Supporter

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    It seems vaguely familiar. Something to do with "marching in columns," as I recall.

     
  7. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    Oh....I don't really care about the author's opinions on conservative nationalism. After I read this....

    "This is the problem with any attempt to build conservative nationalism in a nutshell. At a very abstract level, it’s possible to make non-racist arguments for a more restrictive immigration policy and a more broadly nationalist ethos. But when you get to the level of actual policy and politics, these ideas nearly inevitably end up devolving into attacks on minority groups."

    That's basically the signal for "I don't know what I'm talking about". There's nothing either inherently racist about nationalism....nor is there anything racist about restricting immigration.

    Keep in mind, I'm not saying that it's not possible to discuss these things in a racist way....one can discuss anything in a racist way. A conversation about the merits of Mr Rodger's Neighborhood can turn racist if people decide to discuss it that way.

    The author however, seems to have taken the position that anyone who advocates for immigration restrictions is ultimately a racist or advocating racism. That's kool-aid level cult inside a bubble thinking.

    I'm more interested in whether or not this guy was literally suggesting that national socialism is "welcoming to foreigners"....or if he's so ignorant that he has no idea what he said?

    It's more of a complaint that the author doesn't know the meaning of the word....

    Have you seen the actual wording of the quote by the professor?
     
  8. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    His point is that nationalism ultimately has to oppose policies that favor minority groups at the expense of the rest of population, which to him is the very definition of racism. Nationalism means the question is what minorities to for the nation, not what the nation does for minorities.
     
  9. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    If that's the case....that just further proves my point that he's an idiot with no idea what he's talking about.

    Nationalism requires no such things.
     
  10. jardiniere

    jardiniere Well-Known Member

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    No it doesn't. I read that article, and now I'm completely revising my opinion of whether or not you can accurately comprehend the written word. Nowhere does it ever state, or even boil down to, in fact; "if you oppose illegal immigration you're racist". It's saying that these people believe that immigration from non-western European (dark skinned) nations have such different cultural values that they are a detriment to American culture, which is preemptively western European. The author may not believe this is the case, but the author does do a good job of accurately describing the people at the convention. If one doesn't think non-western European nations with a preponderance of dark skin have different values than that of the US, then the idea the convention attendees have would indeed be risible.

    Show me where it makes claims about "illegal immigration".
     
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  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Ana the 1st,

    I'm convinced that, among those people on that fringe of the political spectrum, the policy has become one of merely appropriating a number of words and terms that have a sting to them for use whenever slandering an adversary is needed.

    To them, the proper use of such wording is unimportant--so long as it is they who are using it.

    You notice that if you, however, were so much as to refer to one of their heroes by a much milder term and not a very specific one ('extremist,' for example), you would be likely to get back a dozen posts questioning every possible slant on the meaning.
     
  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Correct. Absolutely. And history offers us numerous examples of it being so.
     
  13. Nithavela

    Nithavela lologist

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    There was nothing socialist about national socialism. It was just a label chosen to appeal to workers and pull them away from the communists.
     
  14. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    There was for a while, but socialists were purged from the party in 1934.
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Ohhhh no. National Socialism was very much socialistic in its domestic policies.

    People just do not pay much attention to that part of the Third Reich because the Holocaust, the War itself, and other matters are so much more compelling.
     
  16. Goonie

    Goonie Not so Mystic Mog. Supporter

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    What like privatising the banks?(one of their first actions)
     
  17. variant

    variant Happy Cat

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    People don't pay attention to it because it was a mishmash of ideas and thus not particularly "socialist" as we understand the term in meaningful ways.

    That and he dumped the socialist wing of his support in order to embrace industrialists and enact a mostly anti-socialist nationalist government.

    Were the Nazis Socialists?
     
  18. iluvatar5150

    iluvatar5150 Well-Known Member

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    huh? He’s pointing out the difference between theory and practice. Nothing you said contradicts that - if anything, your comments are consistent wth that.

    And again, the conference is trying to redefine “nationalism.” Arguing that his definition of nationalism doesn’t agree with yours seems a bit silly in that context.
     
  19. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Consider also the national government taking control of all the major industries, it creating massive make-work projects in order to boost (government) employment, then establishing round-the-clock child care and indoctrination centers while the parents worked, huge increases in taxes, instituting wage and price controls, imposing socialized medicine with government doctors, confiscation of private property on a large scale, deporting opponents of the state to labor camps, and controlling all media.

    There is more, but anyone who thinks this accounts to some sort of Conservatism or anti-Socialism (?!) is just uninformed, and I have read those claims before. They almost always hang on a few small points of vocabulary or something else like that, ignoring the real facts.
     
  20. Nithavela

    Nithavela lologist

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    Don't forget loosening gun laws.
     
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