Smacking Children

[Leanna]

This is not a matter of leaving kids to raise themselves. Parents who do not spank can create wonderful, structured, and creative lives for their kids.

I know lots of people who were rarely, if ever, spanked, and they are now amazing adults. They are self-disiplined, creative, and have learned that finding creative and specific-to-the-situation solutions can work much better overall than one-size-fits-all solutions.

The parents I know who relied on spanking as their main disciplinary tactic have had kids who have a lot of problems with violence and control throughtout their childhood and even into their adult lives.

Basically what I am saying is that I think spanking should be the least-used tool in the parenting toolbox, if it is used at all.



It sounds like you have a very tough job and perhaps lack enough of a support network. I do know parents who have dealt with similiar situations as yours, and they perhaps used a slap once. But it requires a good support network, one that understands the issues your child has.

I hope you find do find a support network of people who understand autism. Hopefully the nurse did the right thing and contacted the local parents-of-children-with-developmental-disabilities group for you. Or, perhaps a social worker can help you find a support network that will be able to help.



That's very strange. I see the exact opposite. Parents who don't spank, but who instead use creative, individualized parenting, have well-behaved kids. It's the parents who smack their kids in the grocery store that have the screaming kids.

Succesful parents who do not use spanking use instead the "natural consequences" discipline technique. Paint the wall? Clean it up. Insult the kid next door? Apologise. Etc. Real-world consequences that actually socialize a small child into the world work really well.

With good non-spanking parents there is also a focus on allowing kids to channel their energy into positive activities. Have a kid who swings things around? Put 'em in baseball. A kid who paints the walls once? Make 'em clean it up and then put them in art lessons. A kid who dances around the house? Put in them ballet...and so on. Not suprisingly, these parents produce well-socialized, hard-working, disciplined, creative kids. All without spanking much, if at all.

Spanking need not be a part of childhood, if the parent is willing to really learn and be creative.

I just noticed we cross posted, but said almost the exact same thing.... excellent!

 

[Leanna]

Interestingly and to my surprise it´s rather the gals...

What does this mean?

 

[Becky153]

Well I wrote this for the thread in parenting, but it fits here too and maybe you guys would be interested

I think you too realize that something else is wrong here besides "not spanking." It wasn't the fact that you weren't spanked that didn't teach you discipline, it was the fact that you weren't taught discipline. Does that make sense? People can raise well behaved kids without spanking them.

90% of adults have been spanked as children, and most consider themselves to be none the worse for it (Berger, see below). I am just not the type of person do to something just because "its always been done" however.

Spanking relies on negative reinforcement-- you're telling your child what not to do rather than what TO do. Any psychology course will teach you that positive reinforcement techniques have better, longer lasting results than negative reinforcers. Toddlers especially have a hard time making the connection between their actions and the spanking. Even when it does have an impact it tends to be short lived, research shows that spanking is not helpful in changing childrens behavior over the long term.

In my child psychology course I learned the following, "How a parent disciplines a child is an integral part of parenting style. No developmentalist would suggest that young children should do whatever they please; but, given what researches have learned about cognition, it is apparent that proactive and preventative discipline is preferable to punishment after the misdeed." (Berger)

I also learned that among children who were *only* spanked, not hit or beaten in any other way, there was a higher expression of bullying aggression and reactive aggression, reactive aggression being, "she took my toy so I hit her." It has been guessed this is because the child connects spanking to anger, a powerful emotion for a 4 year old(Strassberg).

One longitudinal study (which means they watch a group and wait all the years for them to grow up and see the outcome) found that the mothers who controlled their children by yelling, grabbing and spanking had children whose aggressive and disruptive behavior increased between 3 and 6, but the effect was less if the families were warm and affectionate (Spieker).

Then there is the issue of the breaking connection it causes between parents and their children. It causes such an adversarial relationship to form. Ahh, I better stop here because I can see this is getting long and people don't read long posts.

So this is just some of what I learned that led my husband and I to head in the direction of being a non-spanking family. What we are doing instead of spanking is a hands-on approach. It takes more energy because instead of saying "don't do that" from the couch, I am more often to say "no, that's not for you..... lets do this" and then I physically guide him to an appropriate behavior. As he gets older there will be other methods.

I disagree with everything you just said. Let's review....

Spanking relies on negative reinforcement-- you're telling your child what not to do rather than what TO do. Any psychology course will teach you that positive reinforcement techniques have better, longer lasting results than negative reinforcers. Toddlers especially have a hard time making the connection between their actions and the spanking. Even when it does have an impact it tends to be short lived, research shows that spanking is not helpful in changing childrens behavior over the long term.

Yes, you are telling the child what not to do--but this also tells them what to do--the opposite of the wrong. Psychology course! Ha! I laugh! None of those ever worked within my family or within my friends' families (and I have quite a few friends)! Sorry--didn't mean to say it like that. I have nothing against psychology courses. Positive reinforcement techniques? Please elaborate and we'll discuss. I as a toddler had no difficulty making the connction. My parents made it clear what I had done wrong before and after the spanking. Spanking was very helpful! It reminds me even today of what I should do and what I should not do based on all those lectures and spankings (of which there where quite a few).

I also learned that among children who were *only* spanked, not hit or beaten in any other way, there was a higher expression of bullying aggression and reactive aggression, reactive aggression being, "she took my toy so I hit her." It has been guessed this is because the child connects spanking to anger, a powerful emotion for a 4 year old(Strassberg).

Are you referring to me and the rest of the children in my family that we are all condemned to be bullies? I did connect spanking to anger--not at me, but at the action. But I also connected it to love--they cared enough for me that they told me it was wrong and punished me justly! Yes, I saw it as just!

One longitudinal study (which means they watch a group and wait all the years for them to grow up and see the outcome) found that the mothers who controlled their children by yelling, grabbing and spanking had children whose aggressive and disruptive behavior increased between 3 and 6, but the effect was less if the families were warm and affectionate (Spieker).

Have you ever watched SuperNanny before? Those kids were never disciplined properly and then look how they turned out! My family was warm and affectionate--unless we were naughty, and then even I could understand why, but it's not like they were all mean about it--you could still see the love there, and I felt happy, actually, for the punishment. (unless it was the corner--I couldn't abide the corner--so the corner didn't work)

So this is just some of what I learned that led my husband and I to head in the direction of being a non-spanking family. What we are doing instead of spanking is a hands-on approach. It takes more energy because instead of saying "don't do that" from the couch, I am more often to say "no, that's not for you..... lets do this" and then I physically guide him to an appropriate behavior. As he gets older there will be other methods.

My parents also said that stuff--but still disciplined it through love. And I am entirely grateful to them for it. It has shaped me into me.

 

[quatona]

What does this mean?

I meant to say that I was surprised to find that many young ladies advocating physical violence vehemently here.
Good post, btw.

 

[Leanna]

Becky, for a person who claims to have "turned out well" your manners are questionable. When you are ready and willing to address me kindly, as I did you, then I will respond to your post. I deserve as much respect as I gave you.

Regards,
Leanna

 

[Becky153]

Don´t take it personally, but I think you are not the one whose judgement is reliable in that case. (Same goes for everyone´s self-perception, including mine of course).
Be careful to make such personal claims.
Either you are open to have a discussion about them, or I will simply consider them pointless. I guess, we both prefer the latter, which seems to be more appropriate on a public discussion board, anyways.

I have many people who say that I have turned out to be a fine proper person with strict morals. I say that I do have enought judgement from others to be stating that.

 

[quatona]

I have many people who say that I have turned out to be a fine proper person with strict morals. I say that I do have enought judgement from others to be stating that.

No comment.

 

[Becky153]

Becky, for a person who claims to have "turned out well" your manners are questionable. When you are ready and willing to address me kindly, as I did you, then I will respond to your post. I deserve as much respect as I gave you.

Regards,
Leanna

I'm sorry for the last post--I get opinionated. People do say I have turned out well compared to the little devil I used to be (yes I admit I was a little devil). For people like me who used to be little devils all forms of non-touching discipline failed. I have one question: were you ever spanked (if you don't want to answer you don't have to--just curious)?

 

[Leanna]

I meant to say that I was surprised to find that many young ladies advocating physical violence vehemently here.
Good post, btw.

Thank you. I did an entire research paper on physical forms of disciplining for that class, and that was the short version. I like to include the references so no one accuses me of making these things up. Anyone who chooses to research this topic will find that virtually no psychologist of repute believes that spanking is a preferred method of discipline teaching.(I can think of one exception, and as he is older he is naturally attached to the old way) So I find that interesting.

 

[Becky153]

No comment.

Have you met me in person? No. Can you make that decision? I don't think so--I act much differently on the computer (sad but true:o).

 

[quatona]

Have you met me in person? No. Can you make that decision?

That´s why I didn´t make any, as you may have noticed.

I don't think so--I act much differently on the computer (sad but true:o).

How come?

 

[Leanna]

I'm sorry for the last post--I get opinionated. People do say I have turned out well compared to the little devil I used to be (yes I admit I was a little devil). For people like me who used to be little devils all forms of non-touching discipline failed. I have one question: were you ever spanked (if you don't want to answer you don't have to--just curious)?

I thought about including that earlier but I normally avoid long posts.

My husband was spanked, but apparently his dad didn't do it enough to hurt (which I suppose is the point of hitting your child) and so he says it wasn't very effective and he mostly felt silly when his dad was spanking him.

I was spanked by my mom, but not by my dad. It hurt, and she was not abusive, but I consider it to be a bad experience. The spanking itself created a major void in our connection as mother-daughter and as I grew to an older child and then adult I preferred my space from her. My dad, on the other hand (my parents were divorced when I was 4), I lived with my dad from 6 years old until 11, and then again after one year with my mom until I was an adult. So after the divorce I chose to stay with my dad, who treated my respectfully but defined boundaries. He never spanked, but he was patient and respected and developed our relationship into adulthood.

So we aren't going to spank. I don't believe it is effective unless you strike the fear of being hit into a child as in the Pearl way, and then I think you risk too much.

I know you laughed at the idea of positive discipline being more effective than negative, but it has been truly proven. If you are open to learning new things you can do your own research.

Do not feel that just because you didn't turn out any worse from spanking that it means that spanking is the only way to go. That is really my point. My point is not that kids are getting messed up by spanking, just that there are better ways, and why not?

I always assumed before I had my son that I would be a spanking parent just because I thought that was what you do to raise disciplined kids. But then as I thought ... oh there I go again with long posts....

 

[quatona]

Thank you. I did an entire research paper on physical forms of disciplining for that class, and that was the short version. I like to include the references so no one accuses me of making these things up. Anyone who chooses to research this topic will find that virtually no psychologist of repute believes that spanking is a preferred method of discipline teaching.(I can think of one exception, and as he is older he is naturally attached to the old way) So I find that interesting.

To tell from what I see here, there seems to be a great difference between the approaches and paradigms in america and here in europe.
The axiom "Don´t hurt children (and don´t humiliate or embarass them in any way)" seems to be common sense already here.
I have been working with children for roughly 25 years now, and there was never a situation which necessitated or suggested applying any sort of violence.

 

[Snow Angel]

Proverbs 23:13
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
Proverbs 23:12-14 I never think anyone
should slap or Hit a child.But I do think they need to be
discipline,and well mannered.

 

[fillerbunny]

I turned out fine and was disciplined.

I'm assuming you mean "spanked" or "physically disciplined"?

"Spanked" and "disciplined" are not synonomous. A child can be spanked without being disciplined, and a child can be disciplined without receiving a spanking.

What did they do? Get a treat for being bad? Sit in the corner--I find that a joke.

I haven't seen anyone suggest rewarding a child for poor behavior at any point in this thread.

It makes them bitter--at least it did me. I was furious when I was put in the corner.

And that's your personal experience. Not everyone's.

If you want to label spanking as abuse, well, then, put everyone in jail now!

I never advocated labeling spanking as abuse or jailing parents who spank their children. I simply stated that I do not personally approve of the physical punishment of children, and feel that there are more appropriate ways to discipline a child. There's a big difference there.

If it is administered in love, then it is not abuse!

Just because something was "done in love" doesn't necessarily make it right. Andrea Yates drowned her children "out of love" in an effort to (in her mind) "save" them. She may have acted out of love (albeit misguided)- but I doubt anyone would argue the fact that her actions were still abusive.

Before anyone flips out on me, I am in no way attempting to draw any comparison between physical punishment and drowning your kids. What I'm saying is, just because something was done "in love" doesn't necessarily mean it's not abuse.

It is discipline because they don't want you to grow up thinking that it's okay. Some kids I know actually enjoyed being in the corner and thought that they were being rewarded. REWARDED??? Is that punishment????

Earlier, you posted that being forced to sit in the corner makes people bitter. Now, you're trying to pass it off as a "reward". I'm confused.

As far as whether or not it constitutes punishment.. if the child feels as if he's being rewarded, obviously, it's an ineffective punishment. All children are not alike. What works for one will not necessarily work for another. Disciplinary methods must be tailored to the individual child if they're going to be effective. This kid's parents obviously didn't bother with that.

Normally the people who weren't spanked that I know are snotty and snubbish--normally popular; always mean; think that everything belongs to them. Well, everything does NOT belong to them just because they weren't disciplined properly and told right from wrong and proper behavior.

That's a pretty hefty generalization. May have been your experience, but it certainly hasn't been mine.

 

[miss_liz]

I always assumed before I had my son that I would be a spanking parent just because I thought that was what you do to raise disciplined kids. But then as I thought ... oh there I go again with long posts....

Long posts rock!

Do not feel that just because you didn't turn out any worse from spanking that it means that spanking is the only way to go. That is really my point. My point is not that kids are getting messed up by spanking, just that there are better ways, and why not?

I agree spanking isn't the only way to go, but that doesn't make it wrong. Sometimes when the other methods fail, another method is needed. And so long as the child is not hurt in anyway, I don't see anything wrong with spanking. Spanking can be both positive and negative, I think. Like, if the parent tells the child why they shouldn't behave that way, but this way. I, at least, didn't get spanked without being told what I was doing wrong and how I should behave in the future. Then again, spanking was only used for serious, repeated offenses.

 

[Leanna]

To tell from what I see here, there seems to be a great difference between the approaches and paradigms in america and here in europe.
The axiom "Don´t hurt children (and don´t humiliate or embarass them in any way)" seems to be common sense already here.
I have been working with children for roughly 25 years now, and there was never a situation which necessitated or suggested applying any sort of violence.

... what do you do with children? I couldn't read all the pages of this thread. :o I do know there are parts of the UK that are into heavy spanking/beating (I think Southern Ireland). It may be that non spankers don't like to post here, also. I can see why! I also post at another site for non spanking Christian AP parents and many of us are from the US. So who knows. It would be an interesting survey if I could find some statistics on it. As I mentioned, 90% of US adults have been spanked... perhaps because we have been brainwashed into thinking it is the "Christian way" (dare I say that on this thread? )

 

[Leanna]

Proverbs 23:13
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
Proverbs 23:12-14 I never think anyone
should slap or Hit a child.But I do think they need to be
discipline,and well mannered.

Please understand what I say here. Proverbs has many messages that are cultural and dated. For example, Proverbs also says that we should give poor men alcoholic beverages so that they can get drunk and forget their poor situation. This doesn't sound like a good idea either. Do you think the way to help a poor man is to buy him a 6 pack of beer or a large bottle of wine? Proverbs says it is. I do not believe it. Please do not think you are the only one who has read the Bible. My husband and I have done years of ministry and my husband has a 4 year theology degree. Thanks though.... maybe you thought you were telling me something I didn't know... so it was worth the try. But I do hope you consider what I said.

 

[quatona]

People do say I have turned out well compared to the little devil I used to be (yes I admit I was a little devil). For people like me who used to be little devils all forms of non-touching discipline failed.

Ok, "little devil" are your words. What makes you judge yourself that way? What was it about you, that you consider devilish now?
And, more important: What do you think made you a "little devil"? Had you been born that way, with this severe disadvantage compared to other kids who are not "little devils"?
I have never seen a "little devil" in child´s disguise, and I do not believe there are such. There are children who are not as easy to handle as others.

I have one question: were you ever spanked (if you don't want to answer you don't have to--just curious)?

Yes, I have been spanked a few times. It didn´t impress me much. I felt my parents were ridiculing themselves. I was sort of embarassed for them.
I was more impressed by psychical forms of pressure and conditioning, which btw. I think are as harmful and counterproductive as physical ones.

 

[Becky153]

Earlier, you posted that being forced to sit in the corner makes people bitter. Now, you're trying to pass it off as a "reward". I'm confused.

As far as whether or not it constitutes punishment.. if the child feels as if he's being rewarded, obviously, it's an ineffective punishment. All children are not alike. What works for one will not necessarily work for another. Disciplinary methods must be tailored to the individual child if they're going to be effective. This kid's parents obviously didn't bother with that.

I wasn't talking about myself in the corner in that part; sorry that it wasn't clear.