Smacking Children

[ebia]

I don´t assume that. I just know that particular methods won´t help me getting my messages across, because they directly and factually contradict the message I intend to get across.

Well put.

 

[deb7648]

spare the rod spoil the child

 

[ottaia]

So, in a school setting, if a kid repeatedly beats up anothor kid; just getting him suspended is okay. The parents should not do anything?
Or should the parents have the right to ground him and if they believe it is appropriate, dare I say spank him.

Ok, I am on Candid Camera, right? My kid is in trouble for hitting someone so I am supposed to hit him? That will teach him a lesson. And what lesson is that? "I need to wait until I am bigger until I can hit people."

 

[quatona]

spare the rod spoil the child

I fail to see how merely repeating common places adds anything to the discussion.
If you want me to consider your notion, please explain how and why you think this your claim is accurate. In particular I would like to learn what you exactly mean when saying "spoil".

 

[ottaia]

I don´t assume that. I just know that particular methods won´t help me getting my messages across, because they directly and factually contradict the message I intend to get across.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to quatona again.
​

 

[quatona]

so we should just let them burn themselves? Or when they are older to do drugs? If we don't teach them now someone else will.

We may have different ideas as to what the term "teaching" means.

If we teach them the stove is hot by slapping their hand, then the will learn that that is wrong.

Not exactly.
1. They will learn that I forbid it.
2. They will learn that "right and wrong" are determined by the physically strongest person.
3. They will learn that the infliction of punishment is the parameter they are meant to determining right and wrong by.
4. They will learn that touching a hot stove is a moral problem, whilst I would like them to learn that touching a hot stove is simply something that comes with its own undesirable consequences, and that it´s in one´s own best interest to consider the consequences of one´s own actions.

If we let them burn themselves it is our fault.

I still can´t seem to follow the dichotomy "using violence vs. doing nothing".
I am also convinced, that making mistakes is a necessary element of learning. Learning, in my understanding, does not mean "making no mistakes", but rather "avoiding to repeat mistakes".
Granted, there are a few mistakes that are better to be avoided making them only once, but since your philosophy is appealing to "response to threats and commandments", such mistakes will likely be made once there is no person around who threatens or commands.

 

[fillerbunny]

I'm not going to tell anyone else how to raise their kids, but personally, I'm opposed to the use of physical punishment. My father's use of physical punishment definitely had a very negative impact on my relationship with him.. and it did absolutely nothing to improve my behavior.

Spanking didn't teach me not to engage in the behaviors I was being spanked for. It didn't teach me why I shouldn't engage in said behaviors. The only thing I really learned from getting whacked as a kid was not to get caught engaging in said behavior.

Children do not have to be spanked to be disciplined. I hate the assertion / assumption that parents who don't spank are lazy parents who allow their kids to run wild and do as they like without consequences for their behavior. There are many different forms of discipline. Even an animal can learn to behave itself without physical punishment. You don't teach a pet to behave by whacking it when it does something wrong. It's about consistency and mutual respect. (Physical punishment, IMO, neither builds nor conveys respect.) There are clear positive repercussions for appropriate behaviors, and clear negative repercussions for inappropriate ones. The consequences are predictable and steadily enforced.. no surprises. It's also about knowing the individual and understanding what's going on behind the behavior. It's easier to avert negative behavior before it occurs than it is to deal with the aftermath.

Granted, I don't have children of my own yet. Dealing with others' children is not the same as dealing with one's own, and a cat, dog, or rabbit is not a child. That said, I've worked with numerous 'difficult' or 'problem' children and pets throughout the years, and have had great success in dealing with them and eliciting good behavior (where others have failed) without having to resort to physical punishment.

I just don't personally see a need for it.

 

[miss_liz]

I have problems following that argumentation. If I would love not to do something, and I feel I "can not" do without it, there must be higher priorities for me that prevent me from doing what I actually would love to do.
Which are those priorities? Maybe that´s the keyquestion for this discussion.

I'm sorry...I don't know if I'm following you. My parents did not "feel" they could not do without spanking; for me, it was an integral (needed) part of discipline.

You never mention what this "that" was. They may have missed quite a few options.

Sorry...forgot to mention those. Sitting in the corner for a few minutes, then have to tell my parents what I did wrong, why it was wrong, that I'm sorry; go to my room; no tv; (if in store) go to car (actually, this one worked); they wouldn't talk to me if I was talking back (being mouthy)...pretty much everything on Supernanny (if any of y'all have watched that )--except my parents didn't have a plan drawn out for the day. That's not everything but I'm drawing a blank at the moment. I'm trying to think of all the times I got in trouble.

I don´t agree with this distinction. Both can be done with or without "malice".
But the intention of the parent is not what I am talking about, anyways.
The effect in both cases is humiliation, something that to avoid by all means has a high priority for me, in the interaction of humans.

I disagree--for some children anyway. I do agree spanking can be doen with or without malice, but I don't think beating is done without malice. Perhaps the result for some children was humiliation, but this is not the case for all children. For some children, spanking is beneficial and not abusive.

fillerbunny--I agree that for some children spanking does not work and is not needed. Different methods work for different children. For some kids, spanking is detrimental. For others, its beneficial. I don't know why it is considered abuse (if used as a disciplinary tool) though
.

 

[policy4ev]

I would have to agree that some other forms of punishment are better then physicals ones. Growing up, I know that just the threat of one would make me stop what ever I was doing. In the case of my brother though, he was constantly spanked as a child and then yelled at as an adult. His relationship with my father was also hurt by and caused him to seek support in life outside of our family.

 

[ottaia]

As was said before, punishment does not produce change in behavior. It just makes the behavior move to a time when the punishing factor is not present. To change a behavior, you have to find an easier way of fulfilling the need the behavior is trying to fulfill. For example; If I want my parents attention and they ignore me until I mouth off, by paying attention to me when I am behaving appropriately, I will be less likely to mouth off because I am getting my needs fulfilled.

 

[miss_liz]

^I disagree. My parents ignored me when I mouthed off, but this just made me want to mouth off more. I loved talking back and sassing my parents when I was younger. Nothing bad came of my mouthing off to them. I saw no reason to stop. My parents finally got fed up with me and gave me a little talking to and a spanking. And each successive time I mouthed off, I got a spanking. Taught me real quick not to mouth off.

 

[policy4ev]

Well, what about people that commit a crime and go the jail;then never commit the crime again? Did that form of punishment not help them? Obviously, it produced a change in their behavior!
The same with children that are spanked a few times and never disobey their parents agian. Did that form of punishment not teach them?

 

[ottaia]

Liz and Policy,

Great, have at it.

 

[quatona]

Well, what about people that commit a crime and go the jail;then never commit the crime again? Did that form of punishment not help them? Obviously, it produced a change in their behavior!
The same with children that are spanked a few times and never disobey their parents agian. Did that form of punishment not teach them?

If obedience is the goal in your idea of teaching/upbringing/education, we are chasing different rabbits, anyways.

 

[ebia]

Well, what about people that commit a crime and go the jail;then never commit the crime again? Did that form of punishment not help them? Obviously, it produced a change in their behavior!

Most likely it taught them that they could get caught. Whoopy do.

The same with children that are spanked a few times and never disobey their parents agian. Did that form of punishment not teach them?

On its own, probably not. It secured obedience, but that's not teaching.

A quatona said:

If obedience is the goal in your idea of teaching/upbringing/education, we are chasing different rabbits, anyways.

It probably also secured obedience to the parents only - the kids may well continue to muck up at school and other venues when the parents aren't going to find out.

 

[ottaia]

Ok, can we agree on some things here?

First: would we agree that behavior is purpose driven?
(that means that the behavior is concerned with getting a need or a purpose met; i.e. I am hungry, I get food)

Second: as long as the need is not met, the behavior will continue. (If I am still hungry, I will continue to try to get food.)

Third: The person will use the easiest means to fulfill the need. ( I would go to the cupboard first, then to the store next (unless I really wanted a Big Mac))

Four: In general, a person will not use a harder method to fulfill their needs when an easier method is available.

Five: If we teach people easier and more appropriate ways of fulfilling their needs, they will not resort to maladaptive means to fulfill the need.

Six: To change the behavior, we need to make the replacement behavior more effective than the maladaptive behavior.

Seven: Punishment stops behavior but does not fulfill the need the behavior was trying to fulfill.

Eight: The need is not fulfilled so the behavior will continue, either in the present form or in modified forms until the need is fulfilled.

Wouldn't it be better to help the kid fulfill the need in appropriate ways instead of punishing the kid and then having the kid search for other ways of fulfilling the need?

 

[Becky153]

Six: To change the behavior, we need to make the replacement behavior more effective than the maladaptive behavior.
Seven: Punishment stops behavior but does not fulfill the need the behavior was trying to fulfill.
Eight: The need is not fulfilled so the behavior will continue, either in the present form or in modified forms until the need is fulfilled.
Wouldn't it be better to help the kid fulfill the need in appropriate ways instead of punishing the kid and then having the kid search for other ways of fulfilling the need?

So--let's have the kid fulfill the need in appropriate ways. I DISAGREE. Although spanking didn't work with me, nothing worked with me. Spanking (whish is not abuse if it is administered in love, which it always is) followed by a time-out sometimes worked with me, and sometimes spanking alone. But leaving me alone? That taught me nothing! If anything, it'd make me bolder and I'd be sure to do it again. The need is not fulfilled because the child normally does not need it (from my experience). That's also part of the punishment in a way, but if they really needed it it can wait until after the punishment and after they are told how to ask to receive what they 'needed'.

 

[ottaia]

So--let's have the kid fulfill the need in appropriate ways. I DISAGREE. Although spanking didn't work with me, nothing worked with me. Spanking (whish is not abuse if it is administered in love, which it always is) followed by a time-out sometimes worked with me, and sometimes spanking alone. But leaving me alone? That taught me nothing! If anything, it'd make me bolder and I'd be sure to do it again. The need is not fulfilled because the child normally does not need it (from my experience). That's also part of the punishment in a way, but if they really needed it it can wait until after the punishment and after they are told how to ask to receive what they 'needed'.

Take some psych classes and then we will talk.

 

[Becky153]

Everyone I know has been spanked. If spanking children is abuse than over 75 percent of America would be in jail right now and the kids would be rampaging.

 

[miss_liz]

Ok, can we agree on some things here?

First: would we agree that behavior is purpose driven?
(that means that the behavior is concerned with getting a need or a purpose met; i.e. I am hungry, I get food)

Second: as long as the need is not met, the behavior will continue. (If I am still hungry, I will continue to try to get food.)

Third: The person will use the easiest means to fulfill the need. ( I would go to the cupboard first, then to the store next (unless I really wanted a Big Mac))

Four: In general, a person will not use a harder method to fulfill their needs when an easier method is available.

Five: If we teach people easier and more appropriate ways of fulfilling their needs, they will not resort to maladaptive means to fulfill the need.

Six: To change the behavior, we need to make the replacement behavior more effective than the maladaptive behavior.

Seven: Punishment stops behavior but does not fulfill the need the behavior was trying to fulfill.

Eight: The need is not fulfilled so the behavior will continue, either in the present form or in modified forms until the need is fulfilled.

Wouldn't it be better to help the kid fulfill the need in appropriate ways instead of punishing the kid and then having the kid search for other ways of fulfilling the need?

Yes parents need to help children fulfill needs in appropriate ways, but the reason for misbehavior in children is not always because they need something. Some kids misbehave because they don't get their way (such as when a child plays, say, tag and the child is 'it' yet does not want to be 'it'...so the child throws a temper tantrum). Punishment can be used as a disciplinary method to bring about a correction in behavior. It has worked in the past, and will continue to work (if parents know how to use it) in the future.