Smacking Children

[ebia]

Everyone I know has been spanked. If spanking children is abuse than over 75 percent of America would be in jail right now and the kids would be rampaging.

So if three-quarters of a population do something that makes it moral?

 

[quatona]

Everyone I know has been spanked.

I´m not sure how to appropriately respond to this statement. I´m not sure in which way it can be considered an argument, and for what.

If spanking children is abuse than over 75 percent of America would be in jail right now and the kids would be rampaging.

1. Where did you pull that number? Do you have a source for that, is it just a rough estimation from observing your immediate environment, or have you just made it up while you went along ?

2. Your statement contains a few inaccuracies (even if we accept your number of 75% of all americans spanking their children for the sake of the argument):
Anticipating your permission, I will reword it:
If spanking children would be considered abuse by the law, and if the punishment for this sort of abuse would be jail (and - for completions sake – if everyone doing it would get caught, and if this law would be consequently applied), 75% of America would be in jail right now.

3. Since I doubt the effectiveness of punishment, putting spanking parents in jail is quite obviously not what I have suggested.

4. I think it´s safe to say that a great number of americans are speeding occasionally, and yet the majority is still not in jail.

5. When discussing questions like these (how do we want/postulate things to be) merely pointing to the status quo is not an argument for keeping to the status quo. If it would be, any sort of change would be prevented right from the start. I take it, you yourself would like to see some things being changed in your society, and I also take it, that you wouldn´t be satisfied with the response „it has always been like that, that´s the way it is“.

On a more essential note:
Since the upbringing of children determines the paradigms of the future generation (and since the paradigms currently held are a product of the upbringing of this generation), the status quo may allow conclusions like „if we do it this way, this will be the result“.

IOW: In an environment in which children get spanked on a regular basis, spanking will prove itself necessary. If punishment is established as the means of choice when it comes to forming behavioural patterns, punishment will turn out to be necessary, since that´s what people are „taught“ to respond to.
If I establish reading a story to my daughter as a natural ritual of going to sleep, reading a story will soon be necessary to make her go to bed, and she is likely to hold the worldview „children don´t go to sleep unless their parents read a story to them“, and she is likely to do the same to her own daughter, and she is likely to have her notion confirmed.

Whilst the status quo does not allow conclusions as to what results the establishing of different paradigms would have.


Finally: I cannot provide exact stats as to how many parents factually spank their children in my country, but spanking children is commonly considered an inappropriate means here. Looking around me I do not see all those problems you are describing to exist in your country in which spanking is – according to your stats – a commonly accepted and used method.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

Is it possible that most of the people who are strongly anti-slapping do not have children of their own?

Is it possible they do, and still don't agree with slapping a child?

Hope you know your children are going to do the same thing you do...so they'll probably slap your grandchild.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

Everyone I know has been spanked. If spanking children is abuse than over 75 percent of America would be in jail right now and the kids would be rampaging.

Well as the old question goes, if everyone started jumping off a cliff would you follow?

I doubt kids would be raging. Maybe if people who spank (like your parents) where taught any better, they would see better ways to discipline their child.

You know some kinds become violent themselves, simply because of being spanked....

 

[Chrystabelle]

Well if the name fits...

..

If I would have saw you slap your child I would have called a social worker as well. You'd be lucky if I didn't personally address you about your behavior. Your child is AUTISTIC. If she is having a "fit" you call a nurse or a doctor. You don't slap her.



So it was stressful, and you slapped her. You think you have an excuse because you got p*ssed and you call it extenuating circumstances?

You know why I think is disgusting? People who hit their children. Like another person mentioned (even though I won't be as aggressive towards you) its like kicking a puppy whose pooped on your floor, your mad, and its easy and requires no other effort than you getting ticked off and belting him/her. Its COWARDLY....and if you spank an autistic child (YOUR autistic child) that's even worse.

I wish someone had called a social worker on you.

How many children do you have?

How many hours, days, weeks, months, years, have you spent looking after autistic children 24/7.

Come back to me when you can tell me you have spent 10 years doing my job 24/7.

BTW it is nothing like kicking a puppy and if you had children of your own you would know that. The slap was a light slap and I was not angry at the time. I was trying to stop the screaming. Simple as.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

How many children do you have?

How many hours, days, weeks, months, years, have you spent looking after autistic children 24/7.

Come back to me when you can tell me you have spent 10 years doing my job 24/7.

I have one child, a son, who is dead BECAUSE of abuse...dead because of someone (my ex) who lost their temper and killed my son. I was out of the house, and my ex (the child's father) was looking after him, my son started crying, and my son was beaten and shook to death.

I don't care how long you look after autistic children...how the heck is anything going to be solved by you slapping your child? You where in a doctor's office...YOU CALL THE DOCTOR OR A NURSE TO HELP YOU....You do NOT slap the child

Come back to me when something happens to your child and tell me slapping a child is ok.

BTW it is nothing like kicking a puppy and if you had children of your own you would know that. The slap was a light slap and I was not angry at the time. I was trying to stop the screaming. Simple as

I do have children of my own for your information, I look after my friends children, and they do things like slap and bite. If you had a lick of compassion and sense to try to break the mold of what your parents did to you, you would realize how very wrong you are. Why don't you try to rise above what discipline was used with you with your child? How much of a person are you if you can't?

And just for the record, my father beat me all the time, which is WHY I would never hit my child.

Simple as that..

 

[Chrystabelle]

I have one child, a son, who is dead BECAUSE of abuse...dead because of someone (my ex) who lost their temper and killed my son. I was out of the house, and my ex (the child's father) was looking after him, my son started crying, and my son was beaten and shook to death.

I don't care how long you look after autistic children...how the heck is anything going to be solved by you slapping your child? You where in a doctor's office...YOU CALL THE DOCTOR OR A NURSE TO HELP YOU....You do NOT slap the child

Come back to me when something happens to your child and tell me slapping a child is ok.

I don't slap my children to that extent. I thought I already made that clear when I said that it was a light slap. I don't make a habit out of it.

Grow up.

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

I don't slap my children to that extent. I thought I already made that clear when I said that it was a light slap. I don't make a habit out of it.

Grow up.

I don't care what extent you did it. Its wrong.

I would not tell other people to grow up if I where you...I would think at least you could see why I would have such a problem with someone slapping their child.

Its clear we are not going to agree. I can't see how you would feel slapping an autistic child would be okay in any sense of the word. Obviously you do. You can't see why I would have such an objection to anyone slapping their child. Have your opinion. Let me have mine. It really does no good debating with each other.

Good day Ma'am.

 

[Chrystabelle]

I don't care what extent you did it. Its wrong.

I would not tell other people to grow up if I where you...I would think at least you could see why I would have such a problem with someone slapping their child.

Its clear we are not going to agree. I can't see how you would feel slapping an autistic child would be okay in any sense of the word. Obviously you do. You can't see why I would have such an objection to anyone slapping their child. Have your opinion. Let me have mine. It really does no good debating with each other.

Good day Ma'am.

Sorry if I insulted you.
Peace.

P.S. People were always telling me to grow up when I was your age. But, sorry, anyway.

 

[JGL53]

I don't slap my children to that extent. I thought I already made that clear when I said that it was a light slap. I don't make a habit out of it.

Grow up.

So as long as your husband just gives you a light slap now and then and doesn't make a habit of it, then that would be OK? Inflicting physical violence on others to get them to do things your way is OK, if done in moderation?

 

[Becky153]

I have a question: do any of you know someone who was spanked? If you do, are they more or less disciplined than those just left alone to deal with it themselves in 'better' ways?

 

[fillerbunny]

I have a question: do any of you know someone who was spanked? If you do, are they more or less disciplined than those just left alone to deal with it themselves in 'better' ways?

Just because someone wasn't spanked as a child doesn't mean they were 'just left alone to deal with it themselves'.

Among my friends, those who were spanked behave roughly the same as those who weren't. Granted, my friends constitute a very small facet of the population, and I don't tend to hang out with troublemakers.. but if you look at my friends who weren't physically disciplined, they turned out just fine.

 

[quatona]

I have a question: do any of you know someone who was spanked?

Sure.

If you do, are they more or less disciplined than those just left alone to deal with it themselves in 'better' ways?

1. Again, you are referring to an alternative that noone ever suggested here.
2. Disciplining is not the primary goal of upbringing/education for me, not even one in the top positions. It is rather a means than a goal.
3. Of those persons whose upbringing I have reliable information about, those who were spanked, are not significantly more disciplined than those who weren´t. They have to struggle with their personal deficits more often. (Generalization alert, but you asked...).

 

[Becky153]

I turned out fine and was disciplined.

Just because someone wasn't spanked as a child doesn't mean they were 'just left alone to deal with it themselves'.

What did they do? Get a treat for being bad? Sit in the corner--I find that a joke. It makes them bitter--at least it did me. I was furious when I was put in the corner. If you want to label spanking as abuse, well, then, put everyone in jail now! If it is administered in love, then it is not abuse! It is discipline because they don't want you to grow up thinking that it's okay. Some kids I know actually enjoyed being in the corner and thought that they were being rewarded. REWARDED??? Is that punishment???? Normally the people who weren't spanked that I know are snotty and snubbish--normally popular; always mean; think that everything belongs to them. Well, everything does NOT belong to them just because they weren't disciplined properly and told right from wrong and proper behavior.

 

[Leanna]

Well I wrote this for the thread in parenting, but it fits here too and maybe you guys would be interested

I think you too realize that something else is wrong here besides "not spanking." It wasn't the fact that you weren't spanked that didn't teach you discipline, it was the fact that you weren't taught discipline. Does that make sense? People can raise well behaved kids without spanking them.

90% of adults have been spanked as children, and most consider themselves to be none the worse for it (Berger, see below). I am just not the type of person do to something just because "its always been done" however.

Spanking relies on negative reinforcement-- you're telling your child what not to do rather than what TO do. Any psychology course will teach you that positive reinforcement techniques have better, longer lasting results than negative reinforcers. Toddlers especially have a hard time making the connection between their actions and the spanking. Even when it does have an impact it tends to be short lived, research shows that spanking is not helpful in changing childrens behavior over the long term.

In my child psychology course I learned the following, "How a parent disciplines a child is an integral part of parenting style. No developmentalist would suggest that young children should do whatever they please; but, given what researches have learned about cognition, it is apparent that proactive and preventative discipline is preferable to punishment after the misdeed." (Berger)

I also learned that among children who were *only* spanked, not hit or beaten in any other way, there was a higher expression of bullying aggression and reactive aggression, reactive aggression being, "she took my toy so I hit her." It has been guessed this is because the child connects spanking to anger, a powerful emotion for a 4 year old(Strassberg).

One longitudinal study (which means they watch a group and wait all the years for them to grow up and see the outcome) found that the mothers who controlled their children by yelling, grabbing and spanking had children whose aggressive and disruptive behavior increased between 3 and 6, but the effect was less if the families were warm and affectionate (Spieker).

Then there is the issue of the breaking connection it causes between parents and their children. It causes such an adversarial relationship to form. Ahh, I better stop here because I can see this is getting long and people don't read long posts.

So this is just some of what I learned that led my husband and I to head in the direction of being a non-spanking family. What we are doing instead of spanking is a hands-on approach. It takes more energy because instead of saying "don't do that" from the couch, I am more often to say "no, that's not for you..... lets do this" and then I physically guide him to an appropriate behavior. As he gets older there will be other methods.


Berger, Kathleen Stassen. "The Developing Person: Through Childhood and Adolescence," 224, 2003.

Spieker, Susan J., Larson, Nanacy C., Lewis, Steven M., Keller, Thomas E., & GilChrist, Lewayne. "Child Development," 1999.

Strassberg, Zvi, Dodge, Kenneth A., Pettit, Gregory S., & Bates, John E., "Development and Psychopathology", 1994.

 

[SallyNow]

I have a question: do any of you know someone who was spanked? If you do, are they more or less disciplined than those just left alone to deal with it themselves in 'better' ways?

This is not a matter of leaving kids to raise themselves. Parents who do not spank can create wonderful, structured, and creative lives for their kids.

I know lots of people who were rarely, if ever, spanked, and they are now amazing adults. They are self-disiplined, creative, and have learned that finding creative and specific-to-the-situation solutions can work much better overall than one-size-fits-all solutions.

The parents I know who relied on spanking as their main disciplinary tactic have had kids who have a lot of problems with violence and control throughtout their childhood and even into their adult lives.

Basically what I am saying is that I think spanking should be the least-used tool in the parenting toolbox, if it is used at all.

How many children do you have?

How many hours, days, weeks, months, years, have you spent looking after autistic children 24/7.

Come back to me when you can tell me you have spent 10 years doing my job 24/7.

BTW it is nothing like kicking a puppy and if you had children of your own you would know that. The slap was a light slap and I was not angry at the time. I was trying to stop the screaming. Simple as.

It sounds like you have a very tough job and perhaps lack enough of a support network. I do know parents who have dealt with similiar situations as yours, and they perhaps used a slap once. But it requires a good support network, one that understands the issues your child has.

I hope you find do find a support network of people who understand autism. Hopefully the nurse did the right thing and contacted the local parents-of-children-with-developmental-disabilities group for you. Or, perhaps a social worker can help you find a support network that will be able to help.

I totally disagree with the "we don't spank" mentality. I can pick these kids out of a crowd... These are the ones screaming and running around the resturant, while Mommy threatens to count to 3.

Small children are EGOSENTRIC. This means they cannot be reasoned with on the level you think they should be reasoning at. They're little minds are just not there yet. Sometimes they need a little pop on the butt, and that it brings their attention back to you... Then, you can make them understand why they are not to do whatever it was they did wrong. And then you need stick to it. As they get older you won't need to spank because you will then be able to appeal to their maturing ablity to understand how their actions effect the world around them--outside of their direct perspective.

To me, when you try to reason, "aka" bargin, with small children. All you are doing is teaching them to how manipulate you. And that is truely counter productive.

I never feel children should be beaten... But spanking it neccesary in most cases it seems to me. And it varies. Some kids need a lighter touch than others.

That's very strange. I see the exact opposite. Parents who don't spank, but who instead use creative, individualized parenting, have well-behaved kids. It's the parents who smack their kids in the grocery store that have the screaming kids.

Succesful parents who do not use spanking use instead the "natural consequences" discipline technique. Paint the wall? Clean it up. Insult the kid next door? Apologise. Etc. Real-world consequences that actually socialize a small child into the world work really well.

With good non-spanking parents there is also a focus on allowing kids to channel their energy into positive activities. Have a kid who swings things around? Put 'em in baseball. A kid who paints the walls once? Make 'em clean it up and then put them in art lessons. A kid who dances around the house? Put in them ballet...and so on. Not suprisingly, these parents produce well-socialized, hard-working, disciplined, creative kids. All without spanking much, if at all.

Spanking need not be a part of childhood, if the parent is willing to really learn and be creative.

 

[Leanna]

I turned out fine and was disciplined.

What did they do? Get a treat for being bad? Sit in the corner--I find that a joke. It makes them bitter--at least it did me. I was furious when I was put in the corner. If you want to label spanking as abuse, well, then, put everyone in jail now! If it is administered in love, then it is not abuse! It is discipline because they don't want you to grow up thinking that it's okay. Some kids I know actually enjoyed being in the corner and thought that they were being rewarded. REWARDED??? Is that punishment???? Normally the people who weren't spanked that I know are snotty and snubbish--normally popular; always mean; think that everything belongs to them. Well, everything does NOT belong to them just because they weren't disciplined properly and told right from wrong and proper behavior.

There are many ways to teach discipline other than spanking. I do not believe that punishment should always be at the forefront of our mind. Many things have natural consequences. If you don't jump up and say "yipee" I don't see how you are rewarding bad behavior just because you choose not to hit your children.

 

[quatona]

I turned out fine and was disciplined.

Don´t take it personally, but I think you are not the one whose judgement is reliable in that case. (Same goes for everyone´s self-perception, including mine of course).
Be careful to make such personal claims.
Either you are open to have a discussion about them, or I will simply consider them pointless. I guess, we both prefer the latter, which seems to be more appropriate on a public discussion board, anyways.

 

[SallyNow]

There are many ways to teach discipline other than spanking. I do not believe that punishment should always be at the forefront of our mind. Many things have natural consequences. If you don't jump up and say "yipee" I don't see how you are rewarding bad behavior just because you choose not to hit your children.

Great post! Wish I could rep you!

 

[quatona]

Well I wrote this for the thread in parenting, but it fits here too and maybe you guys would be interested

Interestingly and to my surprise it´s rather the gals...