Smacking Children

[TexasSky]

Some things to ponder. . . . .

My children always responded better to me than they did to their father. One day, in anger, he shouted, "Why do they always listen to you and only listen to me if I threaten to spank them." To which my daughter cut in with, "Because she only says no or tells us to do something if it is important. You yell about everything, and say no to everything." My son chimed in with, "Yeah, Dad. You have a bad day and yell at us. Mom only gets mad if we really give hear a reason to."

His spanking on impulse achieved the exact opposite affect of what he wanted to achieve.

Along that same line - I can give dozens of similiar examples.

My best friend as a child says that spanking became a game of wills between her and her mother. The harder or longer her mother spanked, the more determined my friend was to "get even" and "make her suffer too". So, she would do her best not to cry, and then also do her best to do something even worse than whatever it was her mother was trying to teach her not to do.

My sister tends to be one who spanks at the drop of a hat. Her children are grown now, and they tell me that for many years they absolutely hated her. How they tried to run away from home once because they were so afraid of how she would react if she found out they spilled a glass of milk in the living room. They talk about hiding everything from her because they didn't know when today would be a lecture and when it would be a spanking. They tell me now that they love her, but they have no respect for her at all.

I've worked with children since I was a child. My own of course, and thousands through the church or community. I specialized in the "impossible" kids. If someone in the church couldn't handle a child, they sent them to me.

You learn a lot that way.

One boy was famous for making trouble. He was the Associate Pastor's son. People screamed at him. People spanked him. People cursed him. He just got worse and worse. Then I got him.

I made a sincere effort to praise what he did right, in front of others. When he did wrong, I made my corrections quietly, in private, and I didn't lecture him. We had long conversations about, "I know it is hard to be a P.K., you must get sick of everyone in the church running to your parents every time you forget your bible. I need your help though. Maybe you CAN handle sliding down the banister, but the banister can't handle your body and the little kids looking up to you can't handle sliding down it. I'm asking you to think about what you do before you do it, for the sake of others. To be a leader."

I never once had a problem with him in my class after the first 3 days. When he graduated he hunted me down and thanked me.

Another child was so rowdy, such a trouble maker, such a leader of "bad boys" that I was told he was going to be banned from certain church activities because no one in the church was willing to work with him anymore. I asked to have him. I used the same approach. I gave him responsibility, I praised what he did well, I called his parents up to say, "Did you know how helpful he was today." He graduated from the Air Force Academy recently, and sent me a thank you note for "believing in him" all those years ago.

Working with children does NOT require "slapping them." It requires loving them and disciplining them. Slapping and hitting in anger is NOT discipline.

If spanking is the "only method that works" it is because you TAUGHT your child that spanking is all that matters.

Consistent boundaries.
Positive attention for positive actions.
REASONABLE demands.
Punishments to fit the crime - DO work.

Most parents who cannot discipline without spontaneous hitting end up losing that war in the long run anyway, because their children won't behave when the threat of Mom and Dad's impulsive anger is not around.

Discipline means knowing what is reasonable.
It is unreasonable to expect a 4 year old to have the eye-hand-coordination of an adult. So if your 4 year old spills milk on the sofa, it is Mom who needs the spanking - EVEN if she told the 4 year old not to take it to the sofa. Because she knew, in the back of her mind, that the 4 year old would try it.

If you say, "If you do this, this is the consequence," and you stand firm, the child learns that is a boundary. Whether the consequence is a spanking or grounding or something else.

If the consequence far out weighs the crime, the child recognizes this, and resents you.

If you make your child resent and hate you, you have violated God's word because it says, "Parents, provoke not your children unto wrath."

Don't drag your child through the mall for 3 hours while you shop and then spank the child for whining or for having a tantrum. YOU were the one who was wrong. It was unreasonable to expect the child to put up with 3 hours of being drug around watching legs pass him by.

You'd whine and have a fit too if someone did that to you.

Pick your battles carefully.

But don't slap.

Slapping teaches, "Impulsive hitting is good."
Slapping teaches, "I can lose my temper because I'm bigger than you."
Slapping teaches, "My parents WILL hurt me without warning."

Spanking, done properly, does not teach that. Spanking, if it is done properly, teaches, "This is a boundary, if I cross it, I will suffer this consequence, but it will not be done in anger, impulisvely or in a rage."

 

[TexasSky]

By the way - to those of you defending slapping (and I make a BIG distinction between a pat on the behind or wrist and a slap on the face) ... how WILL you react if your boss, or spouse, or someone at churches reaches out and slaps you for making a mistake?

 

[ottaia]

I have heard about the concept of your "Number." That is the number of times you say something before you act on it. For example, do you tell your kid to stop throwing the tennis ball at the house five times before you go out and take the ball away? If so, then you are a five. If you are a two, that doesn't sound too bad until you consider that what being a two means is that half of the time you do not mean what you say. The best thing to be is a one. Say it and mean it. Don't just yell because you are annoyed. If your kids learn that you are a one, then the nagging ends and things are much more serene.

 

[Bananafish]

Hitting a child is never acceptable.

Do you hit your spouse? Do you hit your friends? Is it okay if a child hits someone else?

All you're doing when you hit a child is teaching him or her that it's okay to be violent when someone does something you don't like.

 

[quatona]

Hitting a child is never acceptable.

Do you hit your spouse? Do you hit your friends? Is it okay if a child hits someone else?

All you're doing when you hit a child is teaching him or her that it's okay to be violent when someone does something you don't like.

How else could they prepare them for being willing to go to war for "the greater good"?

 

[christalee4]

I have heard about the concept of your "Number." That is the number of times you say something before you act on it. For example, do you tell your kid to stop throwing the tennis ball at the house five times before you go out and take the ball away? If so, then you are a five. If you are a two, that doesn't sound too bad until you consider that what being a two means is that half of the time you do not mean what you say. The best thing to be is a one. Say it and mean it. Don't just yell because you are annoyed. If your kids learn that you are a one, then the nagging ends and things are much more serene.

Kudos to you and Texas Sky for great points!

My husband was guilty of the numbers game with his own kids, when they came over for visitation. His son was a handful during that time at nine, ten years old - hyperactive, willful and obnoxious. Unfortunately, because my husband was a part time dad, he tended to let things slide when his kids came over and they took advantage. He would ask his son to stop doing something wrong, or turn off the TV, or go take a bath, two times, four times, then six times, before he lost his temper. Calm assertion the first time while applying the discipline puts a stop to the game and lets the child know that you mean business.

And also thanks to Texas Sky for bringing up age-appropriate discipline and expectations. For example, rigid application of discipline, especially physical discipline, of teens is not acceptable in my book. Giving them responsibility, praising their efforts and treating them less like troops who must be obedient, and more like the individuals they are who have their own hopes, dreams and personalities, will give them confidence to mature.

 

[Chrystabelle]

It is very easy to judge someone when you have not walked a mile in their shoes or spent a day in their life.

 

[quatona]

It is very easy to judge someone when you have not walked a mile in their shoes or spent a day in their life.

Chrystabelle, I have said it before (on one of the first pages of this thread), and I say it again:
This is not about judging parents or pointing fingers at those who feel helpless in view of the challenge. I have all empathy and compassion for them and for them losing it at times.
This is merely about justifying spanking as a recommendable and fruitful means of upbringing. I personally don´t accept that notion.
Understanding the situation of spanking parents is a completely different thing.

 

[bammertheblue]

I don't think I would ever do it (not that I'll ever have kids, ha ha), but I don't think spanking=abuse, either. I mean, it CAN be abuse, but is not always by any means.
Does that make sense? I'm not feeling very articulate right now.

 

[BibleMadeMeDoIt]

As a person who has worked with children, Im totally against spanking of any short.

If its illegal for teachers and others who work with children daily to use physical discipline and we are able to keep order, then it should not be an option for parents.

And I think hitting someone smaller and defenseless is just simply wrong. How would adults feel if everytime they did something at work that their boss didnt agree with they got hit?

 

[wanderingone]

A smack to me is an open handed hit on the face.. occasionally the hand.. and I don't think it's ever appropriate. Spanking to me is counter productive to quality discipline and parenting and when I look at the lengthy discussions people have about how to spank, spanking techniques, spanking "tools" I'm pretty convinced most people who are into spanking enough to get that deeply into how, where and when to hit their kids have underlying sadistic tendencies that express themselves in the sheer glee they express over describing the whole "process" of spanking in their family.

My children are the 3rd generation of people in my family raised without spanking, and while a smack in the face to me is much worse than the "traditional" over the knee spanking it's all completely uneccessary to rearing children.

 

[ebia]

I think a swat on the tush could be utilized at a young age when verbal reasoning, reprimanding, grounding or depriving them of toys has proven ineffective.

If the other consequences have proved ineffective then the chances are that the fault lies with how they have been implemented; using violence won't solve that. Getting some professional advice in effective discipline might.

 

[ebia]

If you've read my previous posts I've tried alternative methods... they didn't work...

Perhaps you didn't implement them properly.

spanking worked...

Depending on what you mean by worked. You imposed your will at the time. As to what you've taught them, well, that's a different story.

I wish I could use non spanking methods... I've congratualted others that say they can get it done without spanking...

I'm not saying spanking is for everyone, but anyone that says (Fill in the Blank) is the only way to do it is deluding themselves... Kids are as different as flowers... what works in this garden won't work in the next...

No-one is suggesting otherwise. However, it's interesting to note that the ability to discipline effectively without violence seems to depend more on who the parents are than who the children are.

I wish I could get my kids to accept responsibility without having to punish them at all... doesn't work...

Don't we all. No-one is suggesting that kids can learn responsibility without consequences, we are debating one particular consequence. The alternative is not "do nothing".

Spanking is not the worst possible punishment.... Ignoring the children and letting them do wrong and letting them go through life without caring if they live or die, letting them do what they want and getting themselves hurt or maimed or killed... that's the worst possible punishment...

Has anyone suggested that would be a good tactic?

I've tried all the lovey time outs and time ins and take this away or take that away.... They did not work for my kids...

The way you say that is a strong giveaway that your attitude to such techniques is not serious. There's nothing "lovey" about non-violent consequences.

something else will work for my SIL's kids.... Something different works for your kids God has blessed you with that...

's funny that it varies by parent, not by child.

unfortunately I don't get the easy way out... I have to fight and argue for my kids to take the least punishments and have to end up spanking....

The fact that it's fights decending into violence is a pretty strong indication that your whole discipline system is not working.

You bet. Not to mention deliberate destruction, trying to weasle out of a punishment, guilt tripping, and raising a fist to an elder...

Spot the irony.

Yes I have tried all that.. and when it fails... which it does 99.9999% of the time I have to resort to the paddle or the belt.....

With an attitude like that it won't work.

Lieing, raising a fist and / or screaming at us and our siblings and anyone higher ont he elder ladder is an auto spanking do not pass go do not collect $200

Do as I say, not as I do eh? The trouble is, kids learn most from having stuff modelled to them. By hitting them, you are teaching them not resort to intimidation and violence, not to avoid it.

 

[ebia]

As a person who has worked with children, Im totally against spanking of any short.

If its illegal for teachers and others who work with children daily to use physical discipline and we are able to keep order, then it should not be an option for parents.

Of course, just as teachers have to be taught effective discipline techniques, so must parents if we want to change anything.

 

[ebia]

I've worked with children since I was a child. My own of course, and thousands through the church or community. I specialized in the "impossible" kids. If someone in the church couldn't handle a child, they sent them to me.

You learn a lot that way.

One boy was famous for making trouble. He was the Associate Pastor's son. People screamed at him. People spanked him. People cursed him. He just got worse and worse. Then I got him.

I made a sincere effort to praise what he did right, in front of others. When he did wrong, I made my corrections quietly, in private, and I didn't lecture him. We had long conversations about, "I know it is hard to be a P.K., you must get sick of everyone in the church running to your parents every time you forget your bible. I need your help though. Maybe you CAN handle sliding down the banister, but the banister can't handle your body and the little kids looking up to you can't handle sliding down it. I'm asking you to think about what you do before you do it, for the sake of others. To be a leader."

I never once had a problem with him in my class after the first 3 days. When he graduated he hunted me down and thanked me.

Another child was so rowdy, such a trouble maker, such a leader of "bad boys" that I was told he was going to be banned from certain church activities because no one in the church was willing to work with him anymore. I asked to have him. I used the same approach. I gave him responsibility, I praised what he did well, I called his parents up to say, "Did you know how helpful he was today." He graduated from the Air Force Academy recently, and sent me a thank you note for "believing in him" all those years ago.

Never under estimate the power of positive reinforcement. And never under estimate the power of treating a kid decently, day after day (however they may have screwed up yesterday). Some of the most challenging kids in our school treat invariably treat me with politeness and respect simply because I make a point of going out my way to treat them decently and with dignity even when they have stuffed up. The thing about the Gospel message is that it actually works.

On the other hand, if you lose your tempter, shout or even argue the point then you (as the responsible adult) have already lost control of the situation. Using violence is not going to recover the situation.

Consistent boundaries.
Positive attention for positive actions.
REASONABLE demands.
Punishments to fit the crime - DO work.

Not to mention:

• Fairness - teenagers especially need discipline to be fair and be seen to be fair.
• Forgiveness - once the consquences have been implemented, then we need to carry on treating each other with respect.
• Modeling the behaviour you expect.
• and you've already mentioned, make at least as much fuss, preferably much more, when things are done right as when things go wrong.

Most parents who cannot discipline without spontaneous hitting end up losing that war in the long run anyway, because their children won't behave when the threat of Mom and Dad's impulsive anger is not around.

And school teachers are more reluctant to involve parents in issues if they think the parental response will be inappropriate or unhelpful.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

If the other consequences have proved ineffective then the chances are that the fault lies with how they have been implemented; using violence won't solve that. Getting some professional advice in effective discipline might.

Here's a psychological tactic: Tell your kids to get thier own switch. That will scare them right there

 

[christalee4]

Here's a psychological tactic: Tell your kids to get thier own switch. That will scare them right there

That seems based on the same emotional tactic that an enemy uses for captured soldiers: dig your own grave. Why do children need to be scared, when they get scared so easily by all that goes on around them?

But, if you believe in the power of the switch and fear, perhaps espoused the Pearls, maybe the following psychological tactics will also be useful in subduing a child:

"
What if they fight back?
Children fight back because they think they have a chance of forestalling the spanking. First make sure the child never gains anything by fleeing. Second, cause the child to understand that he is further hurting himself by resisting. Slow down, stay calm. If you are in a frenzy, the child will respond in kind. If a child flees, don’t chase him. Wait and allow time for the tension to go out of the air. Slowly pursue him, explaining that he cannot win. If it takes a long time, that’s fine. Go to his hiding place and laugh at his frail attempts. Explain that if it takes fourteen days to bring him to justice, he will be brought to justice. Patience. Calm. Dignity. Wait until he calms down in the back of the closet, or under the bed, and as you sit outside, or just beyond him, quietly tell him that you are coming to give him his ten licks, but that since he has fled, he is now going to get one extra lick. Wait several minutes for him to calm down and listen with reason, and ask him how much ten plus one is. “That’s right, eleven. Would you rather have 10 licks or 11?” He answers “10.” Then tell him that it is too late to get just 10, but if he doesn’t come out immediately you will raise it to 12. He must have calmed down for him to make a rational choice. If not, then wait a little longer. Keep this up until you raise the stakes to about twenty licks, explaining to him that when you get to 20 licks you are coming after him. If he is locked in his room, explain that you will unlock the door. There is no escape. Be calm, non-threatening in tone. Just quiet dignity. Think of yourself as a high-ranking government official in charge of negotiations. Know that in the end you will win. It is the quality of the win that counts. You want him to voluntarily surrender. There is no “violence” that way. It is a great victory if you can get him to finally give over and take the few steps toward you. One win like this and you are likely to never have this problem again.
If your negotiation for an unconditional surrender fails, calmly unlock the door and enter the room. While quietly explaining what you are doing, drag him out of the closet or out from under the bed and restrain him until he calms down. Explain your position and then put him in a confining position. And then proceed to spank slowly. When you get to the former number of licks that he would have received, stop and say, “OK that is the ten licks you had coming; I am tired of spanking, but I must give you the other lick that I promised if you did not come to me.” Whap! “There, now that is eleven, but you still did not come, so I told you you would get 12, so here is the twelfth…” And so continue talking him through it so that he knows that he is getting exactly what you promised.
If a kid is hysterical, he will not learn anything, except that you are more powerful. That is a good lesson, but you want more. You want him to come to repentance and take responsibility for every action. He must understand the causes and effects of his actions.
If you raise your voice and run and jerk the child around, you will add to his hysteria, and he will learn nothing. If you give over in any way, or you beg, or you act as if you are emotionally suffering, he wins; you lose, and in the end he loses in the area of character. The child needs you to win with dignity. His soul needs to surrender to a power greater than self. Remember, you are representing all authority to the child, including the authority of God.
How often?
Each child will be different. Some four-year-olds will need five spankings a day, whereas others will need only one a month. Some children hardly ever need a spanking after they are seven or eight; others still need one after they are married. Not that anyone is going to spank him.
You should not spank beyond your fellowship with the child. If you feel that your spanking is excessive, it is because it is not working. If it is not working to produce happy, creative kids, then you are missing one of the other elements we discussed. You have probably forgotten how to relax and enjoy your children. Or perhaps you have failed to train. The bottom line is that if other things are equal, and you give a child a spanking every time he needs it, the time will soon come when he will not need to be spanked so often, and eventually not at all. "

This is from their website, No Greater Joy. How ironic.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

However, my wife does slap the children occasionally and was very upset recently when a social worker saw her slapping one of our children. The social worker made a huge issue out of it and tried to prosecute.

What I find interesting is that, in a world where children are exposed to drugs and sexual abuse, where guns are brought to schools and children are massacred, where kids are bullied to the point of suicide for being gay, or the wrong race or just smaller than others, or where children die from drugs given to them by neglectful adults, that some useless social worker had nothing better to do than prosecute a parent for trying to discipline their child.

Long live the nanny state. All hail useless social policy.

 

[Lokisdottir]

Wow, rarely do I see people get so worked up, even on CF.

I disagree that a quick swat on the bum is 'abuse'. I strongly disagree with those who lump all "spankers" into one category; yes, spanking a child for spilling milk is terribly unfair, but most people wouldn't do that.

Spilled milk? Spanking. Didn't tuck in his shirt? Spanking. Gave you the stink-eye? Spanking. You make it seem as though all parents who spank are like that, when most only use it as a last resort.

Kids are naturally inclined to test their limits and push boundaries to see how much they can get away with. Many of them will hear "Don't do that" as being some sort of game or challenge, which is frustrating at best, and can be deadly if the lesson they're defying is "Don't run into the street" or "Don't answer the door for a stranger." It's one thing if his mode of rebellion is to color on the walls with crayon, but if he tries to rebel against these commands, it is very important to get it through his head that this is not a joke, and that if he doesn't obey you, there will be serious consequences. Some kids will be able to understand the gravity of the situation. Others will not.

 

[christalee4]

Wow, rarely do I see people get so worked up, even on CF.

I think people do get worked up because many of them have experienced childhood discipline as something more than just a rare swat on the bum. As I said before, a rare spank on the behind won't traumatize a child for life, but it certainly will communicate to the kid that the parent can't handle his or her temper. Violence against others signifies a loss of control and temper, and that is just the way it is.