Sin...?

[Jay Sea]

I can just say to sin, that i do not believe, how many in christianity believe. I am glad that i do not, by my observations (on this site) most people (christians) are battling sin. Not in a discipleship way, as in growing as a believer. But in a way as unbeliever and placing their selves at some imagined judgment by God. To see if their sins are eventually not bad enough and to hope they are judged as having salvation by God.

What a life of doubt and worry this thinking must be on the mind set of christian people who believe this way.
Not knowing where they will end up, heaven or hell until they are finally judged by God.

Sin means missing the mark as in archery, so we just dust pick up the bow and re-sight the target and go on practicing. If we concentrate on the "sin" we will again miss the target. The Way shown by Yeshua is the target. Walk in his footsteps.
In Love
Jay Sea

 

[Clare73]

Sin means missing the mark as in archery, so we just dust pick up the bow and re-sight the target and go on practicing. If we concentrate on the "sin" we will again miss the target. The Way shown by Yeshua is the target. Walk in his footsteps.
In Love
Jay Sea

Focus on the solution, not the problem.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Focus on the solution, not the problem.

The law points out sin Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 we need to know what the problem is so we can find the solution, which is to keep the commandments and Jesus will give us the Holy Spirit to help for those who want to obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32

 

[d taylor]

Sin means missing the mark as in archery, so we just dust pick up the bow and re-sight the target and go on practicing. If we concentrate on the "sin" we will again miss the target. The Way shown by Yeshua is the target. Walk in his footsteps.
In Love
Jay Sea

Sin defined as missing the mark is a man created idea, that i really do not see a lot of support from the Bible in seeing sin this way.

 

[Clare73]

The law points out sin Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 we need to know what the problem is so we can find the solution, which is to keep the commandments and Jesus will give us the Holy Spirit to help for those who want to obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32

Nope. . .we receive the Holy Spirit at rebirth, not when we keep the commandments.

And keeping the commandments apart from faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," righteous, gets you nothing.

That is the apostolic teaching of the NT.

The only scripture spoken and personally written by the hand of God in the entire Bible is The Ten commandments, now written in our heart in the New Covenant. God asked us to obey all Ten commandments, not just nine. God bless

Because it was the only Scripture which was the basis of the Mosaic Covenant and for keeping in the Ark.

You couldn't put the whole Pentateuch on stone tablets in the Ark.
And how would they cart all that stone around?

God did them a serious favor in putting only the Decalogue on stone tablets.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Nope. . .we receive the Holy Spirit at rebirth, not when we keep the commandments.

And keeping the commandments apart from faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," righteous, gets you nothing.

That is the apostolic teaching of the NT.
Because it was the only Scripture which was the basis of the Mosaic Covenant and for keeping in the Ark.

I respectfully disagree and you might want to look at the scriptures I quoted.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” When you are reborn into Christ are you committing yourself to disobey God or obey?

Not sure who said anything about commandment keeping is apart from faith, its not something I stated. We keep the commandments of God because of our love for Him and faith. Showing disobedience is not a fruit of our faith or love.

God bless

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You couldn't put the whole Pentateuch on stone tablets in the Ark.
And how would they cart all that stone around?

God did them a serious favor in putting only the Decalogue on stone tablets.

I think you must underestimate our Savior. I believe everything God does is by design and nothing is impossible for Him. If God wanted the law of Moses inside the ark with the Ten Commandments He could have simply added it there. You're free to believe what you want, but I am of the belief our Savior has intention in everything He does.

 

[Clare73]

I respectfully disagree and you might want to look at the scriptures I quoted.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Yes, those who received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost where only those who obeyed God; i.e., Christians, to which the apostles were witnesses. And those Christians who obeyed in being baptized at conversion were likewise given special manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Unbelievers are not given the Holy Spirit because they keep the law.

I think you must underestimate our Savior. I believe everything God does is by design and nothing is impossible for Him. If God wanted the law of Moses inside the ark with the Ten Commandments He could have simply added it there.

Which he did not do, because he did not want, because those were not the basic code--the covenant stipulations, which was the Decalogue only, which Decalogue he did write because it was the basis for the Old Covenant only, which covenant is now obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

You're free to believe what you want, but I am of the belief our Savior has intention in everything He does.
When you are reborn into Christ are you committing yourself to disobey God or obey?

Not sure who said anything about commandment keeping is apart from faith, its not something I stated.

Agreed. . .nor anything anyone said you stated. . .red herring.
What you did state is that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who keep his commandments.

And what I did state is that we receive the Holy Spirit in the new birth, which is not conditioned on keeping the commandments.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, those who received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost where only those who obeyed God; i.e., Christians, to which the apostles were witnesses. And those Christians who obeyed in being baptized at conversion were likewise given special manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Unbelievers are not given the Holy Spirit because they keep the law.

The Holy Spirit helps convict us of sin John 16:8, guides us in Truth John 16:13 help us keep the commandments John 14:15-18 and given to those who obey Acts 5:32. Unbelievers do not keep God's laws.

Which he did not do, because he did not want, because those were not the basic code--the covenant stipulations, which was the Decalogue only, which Decalogue he did write because it was the basis for the Old Covenant only, which covenant is now obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

If you read this passage it is talking about the covenant not the laws. The covenant is what is obsolete it does not say God's laws are obsolete. If you read what God said about the New Covenant Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”

The agreement changed not the laws. God wrote His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant based on better promises. We no longer obey the commandments of God because He commanded us to, we fulfill this covenant when we obey because of our great love for our Savior. John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, That's why in the New Covenant it is still a sin to break the commandments of God 1 John 3:4 and God saints are shown having both the faith in Jesus and keeping the commandments of God. Revelations 14:12

 

[Clare73]

The Holy Spirit helps convict us of sin John 16:8, guides us in Truth John 16:13 help us keep the commandments John 14:15-18 and given to those who obey Acts 5:32.

Previously addressed. . .

Unbelievers do not keep God's laws.

Unbelievers come to faith in the new birth by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), through which faith they are justified, apart from works (Romans 4:5).

Keeping God's law has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit in the new birth and faith, or with justification.

If you read this passage it is talking about the covenant not the laws. The covenant is what is obsolete it does not say God's laws are obsolete.

Nor did I state the law is osbolete. . .red herring.

"Where the priesthood is changed (from the order of Aaron to the order of Melchizedek), the law is changed" (Hebrews 7:12).

"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (Romans 8:3), for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope (the New Covenant, assuring us of complete redemption) is introduced, by which we draw near to God" (Hebrews 7:18) in the gospel (Colossians 1:5).

"abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations" (Ephesians 2:15)

You are correct, the law is not made just obsolete, it is abolished.

All that remains is the Decalogue, which is fulfilled in Jesus NT commands of Matthew 22:37-41 (Romans 13:8-10).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Previously addressed. . .

Unbelievers come to faith in the new birth by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), through which faith they are justified, apart from works (Romans 4:5).
Works have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit in the new birth and faith, or with justification.

"Where the priesthood is changed (from the order of Aaron to the order of Melchizedek), the law is changed" (Hebrews 7:12).

"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (Romans 8:3), for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope (the New Covenant, assuring us of complete redemption) is introduced, by which we draw near to God" (Hebrews 7:18) in the gospel (Colossians 1:5).

"abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations" (Ephesians 2:15)

You are correct, the law is not made obsolete, it is abolished.

All that remains is the Decalogue, which is fulfilled in Jesus NT commands of Matthew 22:37-41 (Romans 13:8-10).

Paul does not preach two different gospels which is why Paul tells us:
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
1 Cor 7:19 but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

God's laws are not abolished which Jesus made that very clear He came to magnify the law not destroy. Isaiah 42:21 Matthew 5:17-30

Jesus tells us to keep the commandments of God and quotes directly from the Ten Commandments and the disciples quote directly from the Ten Commandments Matthew 19:16-18, James 2:10-11, Revelations 22:15.

You can believe what you want but not keeping the commandments of God is not something the bible teaches or Jesus or the disciples and I would not recommend it. Jesus has some harsh words for those who teach the least of the commandments to others Matthew 5:19

God's saints keep the commandments and John tells us right before the Revelations of Jesus Christ

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

We do not show love to our Creator and Redeemer by breaking laws 1-4 which is our moral duty to love God and we do not show love to our neighbor when we break laws 5-10 which is our moral duty how to love and treat our neighbor.

It's been a fun chat but need to run for now.

God bless

 

[parousia70]

Jesus Christ put away sin.

Sin has been defeated. Fully.

Sin is powerless to prevent anyone from Salvation. In fact, ONLY Sinners get saved.
Sin is no longer the measuring Stick God uses to determine who is saved and who is not.

The Law of Moses is what gave sin it's strength to keep people from God's presence (1 Corinthians 15:56), and Sin is no longer imputed against us when there is no Law (Romans 5:13)

Now, we are either "In Adam" Condemned regardless of whether we sin or not,

OR

We are "In Christ" Saved even though we sin.

The Power of Sin to Condemn, or lack of Sin to save, has been eradicated forever.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus Christ put away sin.

Sin has been defeated. Fully.

Sin is powerless to prevent anyone from Salvation. In fact, ONLY Sinners get saved.
Sin is no longer the measuring Stick God uses to determine who is saved and who is not.

The Law of Moses is what gave sin it's strength to keep people from God's presence (1 Corinthians 15:56), and Sin is no longer imputed against us when there is no Law (Romans 5:13)

Now, we are either "In Adam" Condemned regardless of whether we sin or not,

OR

We are "In Christ" Saved even though we sin.

The Power of Sin to Condemn, or lack of Sin to save, has been eradicated forever.

So you're saying we can murder and not seek forgiveness nor try to turn from sin and you will be saved?

Where I am sitting there is an abundance of sin and the love for God has grown cold as predicted in scripture. Jesus did not die so we can sin freely. He died so we can be forgiven of our sins not a pass to sin freely.

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26.

The bible I read Jesus said IF you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15. Do we show love to our Savior by sinning or obeying?

 

[Clare73]

Previously addressed. . .
Unbelievers come to faith in the new birth by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), through which faith they are justified, apart from works (Romans 4:5).
Keeping God's law has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit in the new birth and faith, or with justification.
Nor did I state the law is osbolete. . .red herring.

1) "Where the priesthood is changed (from the order of Aaron to the order of Melchizedek), the law is changed" (Hebrews 7:12).
2) "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (Romans 8:3), for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope (the New Covenant, assuring us of complete redemption) is introduced, by which we draw near to

God" (Hebrews 7:18) in the gospel (Colossians 1:5).
3) "abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations" (Ephesians 2:15)
You are correct, the law is not made just obsolete, it is abolished.

All that remains is the Decalogue, which is fulfilled in Jesus NT commands of Matthew 22:37-41 (Romans 13:8-10).

Paul does not preach two different gospels

Non responsive, did not address Scriptures presented.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Non responsive, did not address, the Scriptures presented.

We will have to agree to disagree. You edited out the scriptures I left in your response that does address what Paul is teaching about God’s laws, which he tells us it what matters is keeping the laws of God and how how faith does not void out the law but establishes it. You might want to re-read the scriptures I posted.

 

[Clare73]

Previously addressed. . .

Unbelievers come to faith in the new birth by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), through which faith they are justified, apart from works (Romans 4:5).

Keeping God's law has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit in the new birth and faith, or with justification.
Nor did I state the law is osbolete. . .red herring.

"Where the priesthood is changed (from the order of Aaron to the order of Melchizedek), the law is changed" (Hebrews 7:12).

"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (Romans 8:3), for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope (the New Covenant, assuring us of complete redemption) is introduced, by which we draw near to God" (Hebrews 7:18) in the gospel (Colossians 1:5).

"abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations" (Ephesians 2:15)

You are correct, the law is not made just obsolete, it is abolished.

All that remains is the Decalogue, which is fulfilled in Jesus NT commands of Matthew 22:37-41 (Romans 13:8-10).

We will have to agree to disagree. You edited out the scriptures I left in your response that does address what Paul is teaching about God’s laws,A

I will deal with your Scriptures when you first deal with the Scriptures I presented explaining them, unless you think the word of God contradicts itself.

which he tells us it what matters is keeping the laws of God and how how faith does not void out the law but establishes it. You might want to re-read the scriptures I posted.

First things first. . .I will deal with your response to my argument after you actually deal with my argument, explaining the Scriptures I have presented.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I will deal with your Scriptures when you first deal with the Scriptures I presented explaining them, unless you think the word of God contradicts itself.
First things first. . .I will deal with your response to my argument after you actually deal with my argument, explaining the Scriptures I have presented.

They are addressed and sorry you do not agree with the scriptures I provided. Post # 69 #71 #73 God does not contradict Himself and the laws of God is not in contradiction to what Jesus teaches. Jesus came to do the will of His Father and did not come to destroy the laws of God John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 7:21-22, Revelations 14:12, Revelations 22:14-15.

Going in circles is not going to help anyone. Hope you have a great rest of your day. God bless

 

[parousia70]

So you're saying we can murder and not seek forgiveness nor try to turn from sin and you will be saved?

Of Course Not.
Are you saying we can be saved if we just live a sin free life? We don't need to accept Jesus as long as we don't sin?
Are you saying we can't be saved if we are Sinners?

Where I am sitting there is an abundance of sin and the love for God has grown cold as predicted in scripture.

Where I'm sitting, the Church is turning the world upside down, Subduing Kingdoms and Establishing righteousness (Hebrews 11:32-33), and making disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19), which are tasks at which She Can not fail (Matthew 16:18) and Jesus Christ is Reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Corinthians 5:18-20), as predicted in scripture.

Jesus did not die so we can sin freely. He died so we can be forgiven of our sins not a pass to sin freely.

Nobody here is arguing against that.

 

[Clare73]

They are addressed and sorry you do not agree with the scriptures I provided. Post # 69 #71 #73

Nothing in those posts specifically addresses Hebrews 7:12, 18; Romans 7:18, 8:3; nor
Ephesians 2:15.

I await your exegesis of them as they relate to your argument.

Going in circles is not going to help anyone.

Yes, you are dodging and wanting to argue about the argument itself, rather than refute the argument itself, through exegesis of the Scriptures I presented, showing they do not teach what I state they do.

Hope you have a great rest of your day. God bless

 

[Jay Sea]

Sin defined as missing the mark is a man created idea, that i really do not see a lot of support from the Bible in seeing sin this way.

This is the reference to word sin in new testement
ἁμαρτάνω
hamartanō
ham-ar-tan'-o
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.
In Love
Jay Sea