Sin is...

[GingerBeer]

Sorry. Not sinless means they have sinned.

It cannot mean that in the case of infants who die in infancy or infants who die before they are born. Such infants have done nothing either good or bad and hence have not sinned in word or deed.

I am curious, do you know what original sin is?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Sorry. Not sinless means they have sinned.

Sinless doesn't mean a lack of original sin.. it just means that person is sinless at the stage they are at now. Like you can be born in sin and have that sin removed. JOb was born in original sin because all are born in original sin and shaped in iniquity

 

[TheSeabass]

That's a false dichotomy.

No it's not. What was left out of the OP about sin is that sin can cause ANY person WITHOUT EXCEPTION to be lost Therefore if the Christian impenitently sins and yet that sin has no effect on his salvation at all then there must not really be anything as sin since sin causes ANY person to be lost.

 

[Hammster]

Sinless doesn't mean a lack of original sin.. it just means that person is sinless at the stage they are at now. Like you can be born in sin and have that sin removed. JOb was born in original sin because all are born in original sin and shaped in iniquity

I never said sinless was a lack of original sin.

 

[Hammster]

No it's not. What was left out of the OP about sin is that sin can cause ANY person WITHOUT EXCEPTION to be lost.

Lost, yes. Lost again, no.

 

[Hammster]

It cannot mean that in the case of infants who die in infancy or infants who die before they are born. Such infants have done nothing either good or bad and hence have not sinned in word or deed.

I am curious, do you know what original sin is?

Have infants done everything for God's glory?

 

[TheSeabass]

Lost, yes. Lost again, no.

Sin causes any person at any time to be lost period. Eternal security does not get rid of sin and its effect, it remains.

 

[GingerBeer]

Have infants done everything for God's glory?

Infants have not done anything either good or bad. Paul wrote that.

And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."
Romans 9:10-12​

And I am still curious, do you know what original sin is?

​

 

[Hammster]

Sin causes any person at any time to be lost period. Eternal security does not get rid of sin and its effect, it remains.

Nobody ever said (that I'm aware of) that eternal security got rid of sin. Justification doesn't get rid of sin. It's not God making us righteous. It's Him declaring us to be righteous.

 

[Hammster]

Infants have not done anything either good or bad. Paul wrote that.

And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."
Romans 9:10-12​

And I am still curious, do you know what original sin is?

​

Paul never said they were sinless. He was only stating that God's choice wasn't based on their actions.

 

[GingerBeer]

Paul never said they were sinless. He was only stating that God's choice wasn't based on their actions.

Paul wrote that they had done nothing either good or bad. That was in the quote.

And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."
Romans 9:10-12​

 

[TheSeabass]

Nobody ever said (that I'm aware of) that eternal security got rid of sin. Justification doesn't get rid of sin. It's not God making us righteous. It's Him declaring us to be righteous.

If the Christian can impenitently sin yet not be lost, then that effectively gets rid of sin. If a law of 55 mph is passed yet no one is pulled over and penalized for driving over 55 mph, i.e., the law is not enforced but ignored, then that effectively means there is no law of 55 mph speed limit where one will be punished if he violates it. Therefore one has been given a "license" to drive over 55 mph with no penalty no consequence. Likewise if the Christian can impenitently sin without the penalty, without the consequence of sin [which is spiritual death - Romans 6:23], then that effectively did away with sin where one has been given a 'license" to do as he pleases with no consequence, no penalty of sin to face.

If a Christian can impenitently engaged in adultery and die in that state, and if he does not face the penalty/consequence of sin, spiritual death, then there is no sin. For sin to exist, its consequence must also exist else it is not really sin but something else.


God does not declare the disobedient, impenitent righteous.

 

[Hammster]

Paul wrote that they had done nothing either good or bad. That was in the quote.

And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."
Romans 9:10-12​

When did God make this decision?

 

[Hammster]

If the Christian can impenitently sin yet not be lost, then that effectively gets rid of sin. If a law of 55 mph is passed yet no one is pulled over and penalized for driving over 55 mph, i.e., the law is not enforced but ignored, then that effectively means there is no law of 55 mph speed limit where one will be punished if he violates it. Therefore one has been given a "license" to drive over 55 mph with no penalty no consequence. Likewise if the Christian can impenitently sin without the penalty, without the consequence of sin [which is spiritual death - Romans 6:23], then that effectively did away with sin where one has been given a 'license" to do as he pleases with no consequence, no penalty of sin to face.

If a Christian can impenitently engaged in adultery and die in that state, and if he does not face the penalty/consequence of sin, spiritual death, then there is no sin. For sin to exist, its consequence must also exist else it is not really sin but something else.


God does not declare the disobedient, impenitent righteous.

Does God discipline His children? Does the Shepherd go after the lost sheep?

 

[TheSeabass]

Does God discipline His children? Does the Shepherd go after the lost sheep?

Discipline and looking for lost sheep does not do away with the consequence of an impenitent sin; spiritual death.

 

[GingerBeer]

When did God make this decision?

Do you see anything in the passage about when God decided?
And I am still curious, do you know what original sin is?

 

[Hammster]

Discipline and looking for lost sheep does not do away with the consequence of an impenitent sin; spiritual death.

No, they don't. Christ's death does, though. And since He died for His sheep, He's going to continue to look after them.

 

[Hammster]

Do you see anything in the passage about when God decided?

Exactly my point. It doesn't say. It doesn't say that the decision was made while in the womb. So you are making an argument from silence to try to support the notion that infants are sinless.

 

[GingerBeer]

Exactly my point. It doesn't say. It doesn't say that the decision was made while in the womb. So you are making an argument from silence to try to support the notion that infants are sinless.

What a lot of hat air that reply is. What Paul says is that Jacob & Esau had done nothing either good or bad because they had not yet been born. That is a fact.

 

[Hammster]

What a lot of hat air that reply is. What Paul says is that Jacob & Esau had done nothing either good or bad because they had not yet been born. That is a fact.

How long had they not been born before they were born? (Hint: start at Gen 1:1).

And no, that's not what he said.