Sin is...

[JIMINZ]

I answered question 1 already not going to do it again. For question 2 you receive the Holy Spirit by seeking it in order to receive the Holy Spirit you must first repent and believe though. If you don't acknowledge you need to be saved and don't want to be saved from sin then God will not force the Spirit on you. And if you don't believe the Bible says you have an evil heart an that tends to kill the vibe if you will. Jesus even said they received not the Holy Spirit because they didn't believe in scripture

A Christian, receives the Holy Spirit, through the Death and Resurrection process of Baptism.

Rom. 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col. 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

What is meant by the term Newness of life?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

A Christian, receives the Holy Spirit, through the Death and Resurrection process of Baptism.

Rom. 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col. 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

What is meant by the term Newness of life?

The bible says to be born of water and spirit.

being baptized washes away sins as we see in acts 22:16 and enables you to walk in newness at least in the sense that you no longer have that "original sin" and added iniquity sitting on the inside. There's a reason teh bible says you can get the HOly Ghost right after you come out the water in baptism...becuase after being baptized you're essentially free from that sin on the inside...but you can do as I did and chose to return to sin and just pile it on forgetting about that baptism.


People have confused the fact that you can get the Holy Ghost right after coming out the water...for meaning they are one in the same or that this always happens in that order but as we see in acts 8:12-17 for example this isn't always the case. And this wasn't the case in my life either. In acts 8:12-17 they didn't receive the HOly Spirit right after coming out the water which not only indicates the 2 being seperate parts of salvation...but also that yeah the order can be different in which someone completes the salvation process.

Repentance and acknowledgement of who God is is always first...but the next 2 can change in order.

But what enables you to resist sin is the HOly Spirit the Holy spirit isn't the same as water baptism.

Both are essential but they aren't one in the same. As I just mentioned was baptized in water at a young age and I kept sinning (I should have started seeking the HOly Ghost) but once I got hte HOly Ghost at an older age i've been strong spiritually and resisting sin.


Again like with the last topic we somewhat agree... we agree that baptism is more than just some show of devotion to God...but we disagree on one slight thing.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

A Christian, receives the Holy Spirit, through the Death and Resurrection process of Baptism.

Rom. 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col. 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

What is meant by the term Newness of life?

to prove this difference i'll quote this text

Acts 8:12-17King James Version (KJV)
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

 

[JIMINZ]

What makes you think I'm agitated by you? You've done nothing wrong you haven't cussed at me or anything.


I mean if you feel you're offending me you're not... so don't worry about it.



Also you seem to not get my posistion.


I never said i'm against the ideoligy of being dead to sin I clearly said I support that a christian can reach that stage..I just disagree that everyone can reach that 1 john 3 stage right away partly based off my own experience. Some have to sit in the 1 john 2:1 for a bit espeicully those who don't know the word or never grew up in church. What you need to understand is it's not possible to walk in Spirit and Truth if you don't yet know the Truth... that's what i'm trying to get you to understand...it's good to have bible knowledge but it's also key to have common sense and some wisdom.


I agree a Christian is

1. dead to the law (this actually applies to anyone... in the sense that no one has to live by the Torah anymore)


2. dead in flesh (at least in the sense that a christian can... "put ye on the Lord JESUS Christ and make no provision to fulfill the lust thereof, or "walk in the Spirit and you'll not fulfill the lust of the flesh". But to say the flesh isn't present and warring trying to overcome an individual would be false.

3. Dead to sin and able not to walk therein (I agree a christian can not sin if he chooses to and grows into 1 john 3 status...but I believe a christian can backslide and depart the faith..or at least get weak spiritually to where they end up needing to have an advocate with the Father.)



What you don't seem to understand is at least when it comes to the framework or concept we agree....we just disagree in regards to how much does free will play a factor here. The bible says for example no one can pluck you from his grasp...but you can choose to walk out of that grasp though. The bible says that whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin for his seed is in him and he cannot sin. But so/so person chooses to slack when it comes to reading the word and not pray enough, or fast enough, or seek God enough then they can regress and possible end up walking in the flesh again.


The problem is you seem to believe in OSAS...while I don't I could be wrong but that's my conclusion as of now. I believe the bible when it says "they that endure unto the end shall be saved." But I also believe it when it says some will depart the faith. I believe it's possible to stay saved after being saved, and possible to not sin...but I also believe it's possible to backslide (i've seen it myself as well) and possible to sin after being saved...because if it's possible to backslide (which requires a load of sin and regress) then it's possible to commit a sin here or there as well if you slack somewhat.


In other words you can go from 1 john 3: to simply 1 john 2:1 status rather then full on back down to 1 john 1:9 where you have to be saved completely again and repent again and filled again. If you slack or have a hole somewhere you can address it...but if you don't... you depart...you backslide... and you gotta start again with 1 john 1:9.

To sum up everything you have said, cannot be, because.

Heb 6:4-6
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26-27
26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

No Sinning,
No Backsliding
No Repenting again
No being Filled again
No Starting over

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

To sum up everything you have said, cannot be, because.

Heb 6:4-6
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26-27
26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

No Sinning,
No Backsliding
No Repenting again
No being Filled again
No Starting over

I think at this point we will have to beg to disagree. Every discussion online reaches such a point to where you can't get pat a certain point. Was a interesting discussion but I believe if we keep going at least in an online setting neither one of us is going to budge. Im also correct in my asssumption of you believing OSAS I guess but yeah was a good discussion

 

[Hammster]

Do not teach or promote sinless perfectionism.

 

[JIMINZ]

I think at this point we will have to beg to disagree. Every discussion online reaches such a point to where you can't get pat a certain point. Was a interesting discussion but I believe if we keep going at least in an online setting neither one of us is going to budge. Im also correct in my asssumption of you believing OSAS I guess but yeah was a good discussion

You see, even in this we disagree.
You believe yourself to be correct in your assumption.
While I on the other hand place my Faith in the Word of God and it's Truthfulness.

We are close in what were saying, but you have been to indoctrinated by others, and would rather believe the assumptions of others than to question what they have said against the Word to verify what they have taught you, because it goes against what you have been taught.

It's a matter of understanding where it is you stand "IN CHRIST" not where you assume you stand in your Belief.

You need to learn, when you place labels on things of God there is an automatic prejudice which comes with them.

Good discussion, see you around.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

You see, even in this we disagree.
You believe yourself to be correct in your assumption.
While I on the other hand place my Faith in the Word of God and it's Truthfulness.

We are close in what were saying, but you have been to indoctrinated by others, and would rather believe the assumptions of others than to question what they have said against the Word to verify what they have taught you, because it goes against what you have been taught.

It's a matter of understanding where it is you stand "IN CHRIST" not where you assume you stand in your Belief.

You need to learn, when you place labels on things of God there is an automatic prejudice which comes with them.

Good discussion, see you around.

.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

You see, even in this we disagree.
You believe yourself to be correct in your assumption.
While I on the other hand place my Faith in the Word of God and it's Truthfulness.

We are close in what were saying, but you have been to indoctrinated by others, and would rather believe the assumptions of others than to question what they have said against the Word to verify what they have taught you, because it goes against what you have been taught.

It's a matter of understanding where it is you stand "IN CHRIST" not where you assume you stand in your Belief.

You need to learn, when you place labels on things of God there is an automatic prejudice which comes with them.

Good discussion, see you around.

Look first of all my belief has nothing to do with being indoctrinated ... ironically OSAS is usually placed under that category...so it's ironic for you to throw that title on me smh.



You need to learn common sense and wisdom...you can't just go off the Word without having the right mind to read it.

It's important to understand context and understand concepts is all i'm saying. You can't just read a scripture and go off it face value...you have to read the chapter and understand who it's written to, who it's written for, and also cross reference to ensure you get what you're reading... it seems you don't do that enough.


Learn what Sin is...learn what backsliding (A term in the bible btw...so how you just take it out of your vocabulary idk) is. Learn waht baptism is etc.


Just take time to understand things and stop being ignorant... the devil is real and he's convincing people to turn back from the faith... don't be ignorant of his devices...take time to develop spiritual discernment before it's too late.


But yeah good discussion

 

[redleghunter]

So why wouldn't baptism go under that if it washes away sins according to acts 22:11 I believe and some other scriptures if it's part of being saved from dannation

If splashing people with water saves why don't we hose down hardened criminals in jail?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

If splashing people with water saves why don't we hose down hardened criminals in jail?

That's cute wonder how long it took you to come up with that

 

[redleghunter]

That's cute wonder how long it took you to come up with that

2 seconds. It's an adaptation of a Charles Spurgeon sermon.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

2 seconds. It's an adaptation of a Charles Spurgeon sermon.

Who?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Because, for an adult, baptism is a voluntary act, and is powerless to save without faith in Christ.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Because, for an adult, baptism is a voluntary act, and is powerless to save without faith in Christ.

Well logically faith comes first... no one was disputing that. Someone must believe in Jesus Christ and have faith in Christ and the gospel before being baptized. If it sounded like I was supporting that or suggesting baptism alone saves that's not what I'm saying. The Bible mentions repentance, baptism, Holy Spirit. 3 components not just one,

 

[Hammster]

Have you considered Enoch.

Enoch walked with God after the birth of Methu'selah three hundred years, and had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
Genesis 5:22-24
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.
Hebrews 11:5​

And Job had an excellent report from God.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.
Job 1:1
And The LORD said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and turns away from evil.
Job 1:8​

How does your theology account for these men who God was pleased with and spoke of as perfect and turning away from evil?

God asserts that Job was "perfect and upright" and I agree with Job. God did not say "Job is sinless". In fact Job was implicated in original sin just as you and I are. One cannot be sinless and yet implicated in original sin. But one can be "perfect and upright" in one's own conduct even if one is implicated in original sin and Job is said to be exactly that (perfect and upright) by God.

Answered your own question.

 

[GingerBeer]

Answered your own question.

God asserts that Job was "perfect and upright" and I agree with God about Job; specifically that Job is perfect and upright which appears to imply that Job did not sin in his words nor in his deeds. However God did not say "Job is sinless". Had God said that Job was sinless then that would imply that Job was not implicated in original sin and that Job did not sin in word or deed. In fact Job was implicated in original sin just as you and I are. One cannot be sinless and yet implicated in original sin. But one can be "perfect and upright" in one's conduct even if one is implicated in original sin and Job is said to be exactly that (perfect and upright) by God.

 

[Hammster]

God asserts that Job was "perfect and upright" and I agree with God about Job; specifically that Job is perfect and upright which appears to imply that Job did not sin in his words nor in his deeds. However God did not say "Job is sinless". Had God said that Job was sinless then that would imply that Job was not implicated in original sin and that Job did not sin in word or deed. In fact Job was implicated in original sin just as you and I are. One cannot be sinless and yet implicated in original sin. But one can be "perfect and upright" in one's conduct even if one is implicated in original sin and Job is said to be exactly that (perfect and upright) by God.

Not sinless means they have sinned.

 

[GingerBeer]

Not sinless means they have not sinned.

What does "not sinless means they have not sinned" mean?

 

[Hammster]

What does "not sinless means they have not sinned" mean?

Sorry. Not sinless means they have sinned.