Sin is Lawlessness

[bugkiller]

Jesus is speaking about the judgment of condemnation to hell after a person dies. Jesus is saying that a person who believes God until his death will not be condemned to hell. Instead of hell, the believing person will inherit eternal life.

That judgment does not exist for the Christian. The Christian has already passed that judgment and has secured eternal life as the verse I posted says.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Jesus is speaking about the judgment of condemnation to hell after a person dies. Jesus is saying that a person who believes God until his death will not be condemned to hell. Instead of hell, the believing person will inherit eternal life.

What does it mean to believe God?

John 5:24
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. rsv
​

Is a believer still a believer if he disobeys Jesus' commandments (the ones leading to death/mortal sins)? No, he is not still a believer if he commits mortal sins.

1 John 5:16-18
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 18 We know that any one born of God does not sin (he chooses to stop sinning), but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. rsv​

Sorry about your conditional salvation.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. I Jn 1

John includes himself with the word "we."​

bugkiller

 

[listed]

Thanks, I think.



If you agree that God's character doesn't change, then you should agree that the way to act according to God's character likewise doesn't change, therefore while the New Covenant is not like the Mosaic Covenant, the way that they are not alike in not in regard to God's character changing or the way to act according to His character changing. God has always been righteous, so the way to act according to His righteousness has existed unchangingly from the beginning and is dependent on God's righteousness, not on any particular covenant. So if we want to look up how to practice or train in righteousness, as we are told to do as part of the New Covenant (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17), then we can read any instructions that God has given for how to do that, regardless of what covenant those instructions were given under, and this is also true of God's other attributes. So there is a distinction between a set of instructions for how to act according to God's attributes and a covenant agreement to abide by those instructions.

Well I spose I'm just plain ole ignorant. But let me ask what more does a person need for training than the new commandment of Jesus? Do you really think that a person wants to be lied to if they are willing to die for you?

Your argument seems to be not that lying is sin but a person must follow the law. Why, when sin was in the world before the law. Were people like Enoch and Abraham righteous because they followed some unwritten law? Or could it be they had a relationship with God by faith? Some of Abraham's sin us talked about and he was declared righteous. No i don't promote sin or the privilege to sin.

So while I agree with Deuteronomy 5:3 that the covenant was not made with their ancestors, that it not at all the same as saying that God's Laws had not been given to their ancestors. There are many examples of God's Laws being in place prior to Sinai, so the way to act according to God's righteousness did not change at Sinai, but rather the Law given revealed what has always been and will always be the way to act according to God's righteousness.

But you just said the law wasn't given to them. Are yuo trying to change the subject?

The Ten Commandments were the law of the covenant that God originally intended to make with Israel and what they originally agreed to, but the covenant that they ended up making consisted of many more laws than that. The original covenant came with the important condition that they would hear God's voice and obey by faith (Exodus 19:5), but upon hearing God's voice, they wanted God to speak to Moses and for him to act as a mediator instead, so God nevertheless agreed to a different covenant where it became necessary for Moses to listen to God's voice and instruct the people how to serve Him and walk in His ways (Exodus 20:19, Deuteronomy 5:22-32).

I can agree it seems the covenant they ended up with is more than the famous ten. But that isn't the real issue. The real issue is the 4th commandment. You're not arguing about following the law of God. You're arguing about following the ten commandments and dietary laws. Why don't you understand keeping one of those laws requires keeping all of them as the NT teaches? If the Christian loves Jesus, they keep His commandments. Jesus didn't give the famous ten to Moses for Israel.

I'll try to finish tomorrow.

 

[Jan001]

That judgment does not exist for the Christian. The Christian has already passed that judgment and has secured eternal life as the verse I posted says.

bugkiller

Every person is judged by Jesus Christ as soon as he dies. John 14:6, John 5:22, 2 Corinthians 5:10

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, rsv​

Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.

Christians do fall away from the faith. Many Christians who do fall away will not repent before they die.

Life-long Salvation Process:

Past tense:​

Romans 8:24
For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? rsv

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) rsv


Present tense:​

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. rsv

2 Corinthians 2:15
For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, rsv
​

Future tense:​

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. rsv

​

Matthew 10:22
and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. rsv

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will. rsv

Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. rsv

​

For a saved person to continue in his salvation until he dies, he must continue to do what Jesus told/commanded him to do until he dies. Jesus will not be the Lord and Savior of any person who does not obey His commands.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv

Matthew 7:20-23
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv​

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain. rsv

Revelation 2:2
“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; rsv

Luke 9:23
And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. rsv

2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; rsv

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed. rsv

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! rsv

Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv

2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. rsv

​

Only the people who Jesus Christ judges to be worthy of eternal life are granted eternal life.

Luke 20:35
but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, rsv

2 Thessalonians 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfil every good resolve and work of faith by his power, rsv

Revelation 3:4
Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments (with their sins); and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. rsv
​

Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.

​

 

[Jan001]

Sorry about your conditional salvation.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. I Jn 1

John includes himself with the word "we."​

bugkiller

There are two types of sin, mortal and not mortal. John is speaking here of not mortal sins. His inclusive "we" is in regard to not mortal sins.

"We" Christians do sin not mortal sins, most likely daily.

Jesus Christ does indeed forgive both not mortal sins and mortal sins when we repent and ask Him for forgiveness.

1 John 5:16-18
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 18 We know that any one born of God does not sin (he chooses to not sin mortal sins), but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. rsv

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. rsv

1 Corinthians 3:16-18
Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If any one destroys God’s temple (with his own evildoing), God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. rsv
​

Not mortal sins are the type of sins that do not cause a person to lose the Holy Spirit's abiding presence within him. It is the continued presence of the Holy Spirit abiding within him as His temple which continues to save him.

Mortal sins are the type of sins that do cause a person to lose the Holy Spirit's abiding presence within him. The Holy Spirit cannot continue to live in him because he has defiled this temple of the Holy Spirit with his own mortal sins.

The Holy Spirit is first given to all those who obey Him and the Holy Spirit is taken away from all those who commit mortal sins.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.” rsv

Romans 6:16-17
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. rsv

Galatians 5:7
You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? rsv

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; rsv
​

Examples of mortal sins:

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. rsv

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. rsv

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. rsv

Ephesians 5:5
Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. rsv

1 Timothy 5:8
If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. rsv​

​

 

[corinth77777]

Thanks, I think.



If you agree that God's character doesn't change, then you should agree that the way to act according to God's character likewise doesn't change, therefore while the New Covenant is not like the Mosaic Covenant, the way that they are not alike in not in regard to God's character changing or the way to act according to His character changing. God has always been righteous, so the way to act according to His righteousness has existed unchangingly from the beginning and is dependent on God's righteousness, not on any particular covenant. So if we want to look up how to practice or train in righteousness, as we are told to do as part of the New Covenant (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17), then we can read any instructions that God has given for how to do that, regardless of what covenant those instructions were given under, and this is also true of God's other attributes. So there is a distinction between a set of instructions for how to act according to God's attributes and a covenant agreement to abide by those instructions.



So while I agree with Deuteronomy 5:3 that the covenant was not made with their ancestors, that it not at all the same as saying that God's Laws had not been given to their ancestors. There are many examples of God's Laws being in place prior to Sinai, so the way to act according to God's righteousness did not change at Sinai, but rather the Law given revealed what has always been and will always be the way to act according to God's righteousness.

The Ten Commandments were the law of the covenant that God originally intended to make with Israel and what they originally agreed to, but the covenant that they ended up making consisted of many more laws than that. The original covenant came with the important condition that they would hear God's voice and obey by faith (Exodus 19:5), but upon hearing God's voice, they wanted God to speak to Moses and for him to act as a mediator instead, so God nevertheless agreed to a different covenant where it became necessary for Moses to listen to God's voice and instruct the people how to serve Him and walk in His ways (Exodus 20:19, Deuteronomy 5:22-32).



In Acts 10:28, Peter mentioned a Jewish oral law that forbade Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles and this is the law that Peter was following in Galatians 2:11-15 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, so we have a clear example of "living like a Jew" referring to living according to these oral laws. Many even taught that you couldn't know how to correctly obey God's Law without know their oral laws, so they saw their traditions as having greater weight than God's Law, which was a major source of conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees (Matthew 15:1-9).



Moses had the authority to make interpretations on how to obey the Law and by the 1st century, those who had this authority passed down to them were referred to as sitting in Moses' seat, and it had become a large body of Jewish oral laws, rulings, traditions, and fences that Jesus referred to as placing a heavy burden on the people. Again, he was not criticizing them for teaching the people to obey what God had commanded them.



Romans 7:21-25 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

In these verses Paul is very clearly contrasting the Law of God that is the good he delights in doing and serves with his mind with the law of sin that held him captive, that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do, and that he served with his flesh, so I do not see how you can consider them to be the same law. Paul said that God's Law is not sin, but rather it instructs us what sin is (7:7), that it is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), that it is the good he sought to do (7:13-20), the good he delighted in doing (7:22), and that law that he served with his mind (7:25), but contracted that with the law of sin that came about to increase transgress (5:20), that stirred up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held him captive (7:6), that gave sin it's power (7:8), that caused him not to do the good that he wanted (7:13-20), that held him captive (7:23), and that he served with his flesh (7:25).



Having no more need for a tutor is not at all the same thing has having no more need for what the tutor taught you. The subject is still how to serve God and how to walk in His ways, but now that Christ has come, we have a superior teacher and a superior example of obedience to the Law to follow. We also have the Spirit, who has the role of leading us in obedience to God's Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).



If taking a particular action was in accordance with God's righteousness before the cross, but after the cross that is no longer the case, or vice versa, then God's righteousness has changed, but God's righteousness is eternal and unchanging (Psalms 119:142) and so therefore all of God's righteous Laws are likewise eternal and unchanging (Psalms 119:160).

Heaven and earth are still here and not all has been accomplish because there is still the second coming. Rather:

Pleroo: to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

In Matthew 5, Jesus said he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, said not the least part of the law would disappear until heaven and earth disappear and all is accomplished, both of which refer to end times, gave a warning which we should heed to those who would relax the least of the laws or teach others to do the same, and then proceeded to fulfill the law six times throughout the rest of the chapter by causing God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be.



In Genesis 26:5, it says that Abraham obeyed God's voice and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. We don't know the exact content of these instructions, but I think it is extremely safe to say that they could be summarized as instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good in accordance with the attributes of God, just as the Mosaic Law can be summarized (Romans 7:12). And again, we have much evidence of God's Laws already being in place prior to Sinai.



The Greek word "ekklesia" means "assembly" or "church" and is used in the Septuagint to refer to the assembly of Israel in the wilderness, so that is when the Church Age began. When translators of the NT inconsistently translate "ekklesia" as "church" when it refers to a group of Christian believers and translate it as "assembly" everywhere else, they create the false impression that it is talking about something new, rather than something that has been rebuilt according to prophecy (Amos 9:11).



Sorry, should have explained that point better. In the Mosaic Covenant, Israel was the bride of Christ, but God gave her a certificate of divorce and according to Deuteronomy 24:1-4, she could not again return and become the bride of Christ without defiling the land. This is the issue that is being discussed in Jeremiah 3:1-14, but God nevertheless continued to call for her to return to Him, so He had a way of making it work out, and this way was a mystery. The only way the wife could return to her first husband would be if the first marriage contract was annulled, which could only happen when he died, but she could not return to someone who was dead, and surely God couldn't die. Enter Jesus, who died, which caused the first marriage contract to be annulled, which freed Israel from her to be free to belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God (Romans 7:1-4).



Jeremiah 31:31-34 has refers to a new marriage contract between God and the house of Israel and Judah, which again uses imagery of God being a husband to her. Furthermore, it talks about how the new marriage contract will be different from the previous one in that it is no longer one where man serves as a mediator to teach other men how to serve God and to walk in His ways, but rather it is one where can all hear God's voice instruct us how to serve Him and walk in His ways, from the least to the greatest.

I read this...and surely not the beginning...sounds like someone with a lot of knowledge...
I been finding to my own learning that possibly depending on culture and time that words being exchanged bring forth a different meaning then intended.

My question is where does the Bible mention the law of sin directly? where can I find this in scripture?

 

[corinth77777]

Guys and gals the Christian has already passed the judgment - Jn 5:24.

bugkiller

Has your understanding brought you believe there is only one judgement?

 

[listed]

Every person is judged by Jesus Christ as soon as he dies. John 14:6, John 5:22, 2 Corinthians 5:10

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, rsv​

Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.

Christians do fall away from the faith. Many Christians who do fall away will not repent before they die.

Life-long Salvation Process:

Past tense:​

Romans 8:24
For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? rsv

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) rsv


Present tense:​

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. rsv

2 Corinthians 2:15
For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, rsv
​

Future tense:​

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. rsv

​

Matthew 10:22
and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. rsv

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will. rsv

Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. rsv​

For a saved person to continue in his salvation until he dies, he must continue to do what Jesus told/commanded him to do until he dies. Jesus will not be the Lord and Savior of any person who does not obey His commands.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv

Matthew 7:20-23
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv​

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain. rsv

Revelation 2:2
“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; rsv

Luke 9:23
And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. rsv

2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; rsv

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed. rsv

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! rsv

Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv

2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. rsv

​

Only the people who Jesus Christ judges to be worthy of eternal life are granted eternal life.

Luke 20:35
but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, rsv

2 Thessalonians 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfil every good resolve and work of faith by his power, rsv

Revelation 3:4
Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments (with their sins); and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. rsv
​

Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.

​

Is Jhn 5:24 true? I think you're mixed up about the judgments and the reasons for them. There is the judgment of the righteous and a judgment of the wicked. The righteous are Christians, have passed judgment and granted eternal life. So their judgment isn't about salvation.

 

[bugkiller]

Has your understanding brought you believe there is only one judgement?

The judgment the Christian has passed is the condemning judgment of the wicked. I see the judgment of the righteous (Christian) more like a roll call and reward for the good works God has created us to preform (Eph 2). But whatever judgment the Christian must pass, they have already passed according to Jn 5:24.

bugkiller

 

[Jan001]

Is Jhn 5:24 true? I think you're mixed up about the judgments and the reasons for them. There is the judgment of the righteous and a judgment of the wicked. The righteous are Christians, have passed judgment and granted eternal life. So their judgment isn't about salvation.

Each person receives his own personal judgment as soon as he dies and this judgment determines whether he will inherit eternal life or be condemned to hell.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, rsv

​

Judas was judged immediately after he died and so he went immediately to his own appointed place.

Acts 1:25
to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” rsv​

Every person is judged immediately after he dies, just as the rich man and Lazarus were judged immediately after they died. After his own personal judgment, each person then goes immediately to his own appointed place.

Luke 16:19-24
“There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ rsv​

At the end of the age when Jesus returns to earth, there will then be a world-wide judgment where everyone will see who was condemned and who has inherited eternal life. All people will regain their physical bodies first and then they will all be seen by all people at the Sheep and Goats Judgment/White Throne Judgment.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. rsv
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” rsv
​

Jesus states very plainly that many people will become Christians and then later they will fall away from the faith and not repent before they die. These "Christians" will not inherit eternal life. Matthew 7:21-23

Luke 8:13
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. rsv​

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. rsv
​

A person "believes Him" only when he obeys Jesus Christ's commands. As long as a Christian obeys Jesus Christ's commandments, he has the Holy Spirit living within him and therefore he has the Lord's guarantee of eternal life. But the disobedient Christian insults the Holy Spirit and so the Holy Spirit no longer abides in him. By his loss of the Holy Spirit's presence, he loses his guarantee of eternal life. If he does not repent before his death and thereby regain the Holy Spirit's presence within him, he will be condemned to hell. He will not be approved to inherit eternal life.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. rsv
​

 

[pescador]

You said, "A person "believes Him" only when he obeys Jesus Christ's commands. As long as a Christian obeys Jesus Christ's commandments, he has the Holy Spirit living within him and therefore he has the Lord's guarantee of eternal life. But the disobedient Christian insults the Holy Spirit and so the Holy Spirit no longer abides in him. By his loss of the Holy Spirit's presence, he loses his guarantee of eternal life. If he does not repent before his death and thereby regain the Holy Spirit's presence within him, he will be condemned to hell. He will not be approved to inherit eternal life."

I'm not sure where you get this doctrine but it is not in agreement with scripture. God doesn't give us the Holy Spirit conditionally, to be yanked away if we're not obedient slaves. The Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing us eternal life. There is no disobedience that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. The only unforgivable sin is saying to God that a person no longer wants the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, in essence giving back the deposit.

God's gift has no strings attached.

 

[listed]

Each person receives his own personal judgment as soon as he dies and this judgment determines whether he will inherit eternal life or be condemned to hell.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, rsv

​

Judas was judged immediately after he died and so he went immediately to his own appointed place.

Acts 1:25
to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” rsv​

Every person is judged immediately after he dies, just as the rich man and Lazarus were judged immediately after they died. After his own personal judgment, each person then goes immediately to his own appointed place.

Luke 16:19-24
“There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ rsv​

At the end of the age when Jesus returns to earth, there will then be a world-wide judgment where everyone will see who was condemned and who has inherited eternal life. All people will regain their physical bodies first and then they will all be seen by all people at the Sheep and Goats Judgment/White Throne Judgment.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. rsv
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” rsv
​

Jesus states very plainly that many people will become Christians and then later they will fall away from the faith and not repent before they die. These "Christians" will not inherit eternal life. Matthew 7:21-23

Luke 8:13
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. rsv​

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. rsv
​

A person "believes Him" only when he obeys Jesus Christ's commands. As long as a Christian obeys Jesus Christ's commandments, he has the Holy Spirit living within him and therefore he has the Lord's guarantee of eternal life. But the disobedient Christian insults the Holy Spirit and so the Holy Spirit no longer abides in him. By his loss of the Holy Spirit's presence, he loses his guarantee of eternal life. If he does not repent before his death and thereby regain the Holy Spirit's presence within him, he will be condemned to hell. He will not be approved to inherit eternal life.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. rsv
​

I kinda gave up on this thread. There was no activity for a few days.

Nice long post. I gather Jn 5:24 is not current for the Christian until physical death. I just don't see that in the verse.

 

[Soyeong]

I kinda gave up on this thread. There was no activity for a few days.

Nice long post. I gather Jn 5:24 is not current for the Christian until physical death. I just don't see that in the verse.

Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, I intend to reply later today. I have started a new job recently and have not had as much time to be active on these forums.

 

[listed]

You said, "A person "believes Him" only when he obeys Jesus Christ's commands. As long as a Christian obeys Jesus Christ's commandments, he has the Holy Spirit living within him and therefore he has the Lord's guarantee of eternal life. But the disobedient Christian insults the Holy Spirit and so the Holy Spirit no longer abides in him. By his loss of the Holy Spirit's presence, he loses his guarantee of eternal life. If he does not repent before his death and thereby regain the Holy Spirit's presence within him, he will be condemned to hell. He will not be approved to inherit eternal life."

I'm not sure where you get this doctrine but it is not in agreement with scripture. God doesn't give us the Holy Spirit conditionally, to be yanked away if we're not obedient slaves. The Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing us eternal life. There is no disobedience that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. The only unforgivable sin is saying to God that a person no longer wants the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, in essence giving back the deposit.

God's gift has no strings attached.

I'm confused by your post. Maybe I'm reading it to fast. I don't believe in performance oriented salvation. This doesn't mean a Christian has no fruit.

 

[listed]

Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, I intend to reply later today. I have started a new job recently and have not had as much time to be active on these forums.

No problem. Congrats on your new job.

 

[Jan001]

You said, "A person "believes Him" only when he obeys Jesus Christ's commands. As long as a Christian obeys Jesus Christ's commandments, he has the Holy Spirit living within him and therefore he has the Lord's guarantee of eternal life. But the disobedient Christian insults the Holy Spirit and so the Holy Spirit no longer abides in him. By his loss of the Holy Spirit's presence, he loses his guarantee of eternal life. If he does not repent before his death and thereby regain the Holy Spirit's presence within him, he will be condemned to hell. He will not be approved to inherit eternal life."

I'm not sure where you get this doctrine but it is not in agreement with scripture. God doesn't give us the Holy Spirit conditionally, to be yanked away if we're not obedient slaves. The Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing us eternal life. There is no disobedience that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. The only unforgivable sin is saying to God that a person no longer wants the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, in essence giving back the deposit.

God's gift has no strings attached.

A lawyer asked Jesus Christ, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" What did Jesus say to him?

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live (inherit eternal life).” rsv

​

A rich man asked Jesus Christ, ".....what good deed must I do, to have inherit eternal life?" What did Jesus answer him?

Matthew 19:16-23
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. 23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. rsv

​

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.” rsv

​

Therefore, the Holy Spirit is taken away from those who disobey Him. So become a slave to God and His righteousness, and thereby be approved to inherit eternal life after you die.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death (condemnation), or of obedience, which leads to righteousness (eternal life)? rsv


Titus 3:3-8
For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by men and hating one another; 4 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is sure. I desire you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to apply themselves to good deeds; these are excellent and profitable to men. rsv
​

Jesus saved us so that we can have hope of eternal life. Whether we actually do inherit eternal life depends on if we do what we should do and if we don't do what we shouldn't do.

There are many, many Christians who will not inherit eternal life. Jesus Christ is not the Lord of Christians who do not strive obey His commandments.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?" rsv​

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv

Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” rsv

1 John 2:1-5
My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: rsv
​

What happens to all these disobedient Christian liars if they do not repent of their sins before they die?

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” rsv
​

I do not expect to be approved to inherit eternal life by simply believing and trusting that Jesus Christ will save me. 2 Peter 1:3-8

Unless I obey His commandments until I die, He will not approve me worthy to inherit eternal life.

Matthew 10:37-39
He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it. rsv

Matthew 24:11-13
And many false prophets will arise and lead many (CHRISTIANS) astray. 12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most (CHRISTIAN'S) men’s love will grow cold. 13 But he who endures (in obedience to Jesus' commandments) to the end (of his life will be saved (approved to inherit eternal life). rsv

2 Thessalonians 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and (that you) may fulfil every good resolve and work of faith by his power, rsv

​

2 Thessalonians 1:5
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering— rsv

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.". rsv

John 14:21
He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” rsv


James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test (of faithfulness/obedience to God's commandments until death) he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him. rsv

Matthew 7:19-20
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (of hell). 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. rsv

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate (to heaven) is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life (eternal life in heaven), and those who find it are few. rsv​

 

[Jan001]

I kinda gave up on this thread. There was no activity for a few days.

Nice long post. I gather Jn 5:24 is not current for the Christian until physical death. I just don't see that in the verse.

21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. rsv​

A person who is believing/obeying God right now has eternal life promised to him. If he dies right now at this very minute, he does not come into condemnation. Instead, he is approved to enter into eternal life. Hebrews 9:27

Hebrews 6:11-13
And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. rsv​

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised. rsv





​

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him.

 

[bugkiller]

Each person receives his own personal judgment as soon as he dies and this judgment determines whether he will inherit eternal life or be condemned to hell.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, rsv

​

Judas was judged immediately after he died and so he went immediately to his own appointed place.

Acts 1:25
to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” rsv​

Every person is judged immediately after he dies, just as the rich man and Lazarus were judged immediately after they died. After his own personal judgment, each person then goes immediately to his own appointed place.

Luke 16:19-24
“There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ rsv​

At the end of the age when Jesus returns to earth, there will then be a world-wide judgment where everyone will see who was condemned and who has inherited eternal life. All people will regain their physical bodies first and then they will all be seen by all people at the Sheep and Goats Judgment/White Throne Judgment.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. rsv
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” rsv
​

Jesus states very plainly that many people will become Christians and then later they will fall away from the faith and not repent before they die. These "Christians" will not inherit eternal life. Matthew 7:21-23

Luke 8:13
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. rsv​

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. rsv
​

A person "believes Him" only when he obeys Jesus Christ's commands. As long as a Christian obeys Jesus Christ's commandments, he has the Holy Spirit living within him and therefore he has the Lord's guarantee of eternal life. But the disobedient Christian insults the Holy Spirit and so the Holy Spirit no longer abides in him. By his loss of the Holy Spirit's presence, he loses his guarantee of eternal life. If he does not repent before his death and thereby regain the Holy Spirit's presence within him, he will be condemned to hell. He will not be approved to inherit eternal life.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. rsv
​

Would not agree with everything in your post. Some of it has lots of merit.

bugkiller

 

[Soyeong]

No problem. Congrats on your new job.

Thanks.

Well I spose I'm just plain ole ignorant. But let me ask what more does a person need for training than the new commandment of Jesus?

All of God's commands can be summarized as His instructions for how to love Him and our neighbor, so they are all the explanation for how to correctly obey his new command.

Do you really think that a person wants to be lied to if they are willing to die for you?

It is not clear to me how this question is related to anything.

Your argument seems to be not that lying is sin but a person must follow the law.

I haven't said anything about lying, so it again is not clear to me why you think my argument seems to be that lying is not a sin, though I would say that a person must follow the Law.

Why, when sin was in the world before the law. Were people like Enoch and Abraham righteous because they followed some unwritten law? Or could it be they had a relationship with God by faith? Some of Abraham's sin us talked about and he was declared righteous.

There is much evidence of many of God's laws already being in place throughout Genesis prior to when the Law of Moses was given at Sinai. The one and only way for anyone to become righteous is by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, is said that Noah found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man. God shows His grace to us by teaching us to obey His Law (Psalms 119:29), so it was no accident that he was a righteous man, but rather God had taught him by grace how to do what is righteous, and he obeyed through faith.

No i don't promote sin or the privilege to sin.

God's Law was given to reveal what sin is, so if you promote disobedience to God's Law, then you promote sin.

But you just said the law wasn't given to them. Are yuo trying to change the subject?

There is a distinction between an eternal set of instructions for how to act according to God's eternal attributes and a covenant agreement to abide by those instructions. The Mosaic Covenant was not made with their ancestors, but that does not mean that God had not previously given instructions for how to act according to His attributes.

I can agree it seems the covenant they ended up with is more than the famous ten. But that isn't the real issue. The real issue is the 4th commandment. You're not arguing about following the law of God. You're arguing about following the ten commandments and dietary laws. Why don't you understand keeping one of those laws requires keeping all of them as the NT teaches? If the Christian loves Jesus, they keep His commandments. Jesus didn't give the famous ten to Moses for Israel.

I'll try to finish tomorrow.

I am arguing in favor of obeying the Law of God, not just the Sabbath and dietary laws. I think you are referencing James 2:1-10, but that doesn't say that if you obey one of them, then you are required to obey them all. His point was that by break any of the Laws you become a lawbreaker, so he was encouraging them to obey the Law more consistently. The consequence of becoming a lawbreaker is that we need to repent and turn back to obedience. If a Christian loves Jesus, then they will keep his commandments, which were not his own, but that of the Father, which were given through the Mosaic Law.

 

[Jan001]

Would not agree with everything in your post. Some of it has lots of merit.

bugkiller

What do you not agree with?