Sin is Lawlessness

Sola1517

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1 John 3:4

Sin, according to the Apostle John is lawlessness. Other religions teach people to be moral just as much as Christianity does. So what law is John referring to? Does being saved mean following the Law of Moses or is there another law that we are to adhere to?
 

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1 John 3:4

Sin, according to the Apostle John is lawlessness. Other religions teach people to be moral just as much as Christianity does. So what law is John referring to? Does being saved mean following the Law of Moses or is there another law that we are to adhere to?
The verse is speaking about God's law which is why some bible versions translate anomia there as "breaking commandments." It simply means without or outside of... God's law. So, sin is living outside of the law or is breaking the law. That doesn't fair well with most "grace only" Christians but the truth is... it doesn't affect the grace only position, it is still grace only. :) We are not saved by being obedient, but those who belong to the Lord live according to His will and not there own. So, there is room for law and grace. In fact, seeing it is the law that is the standard that declares we need grace... then it is a sound argument to say that without the law there is no need for grace!
 
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Sola1517

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The verse is speaking about God's law which is why some bible versions translate anomia there as "breaking commandments." It simply means without or outside of... God's law. So, sin is living outside of the law or is breaking the law. That doesn't fair well with most "grace only" Christians but the truth is... it doesn't affect the grace only position, it is still grace only. :) We are not saved by being obedient, but those who belong to the Lord live according to His will and not there own. So, there is room for law and grace. In fact, seeing it is the law that is the standard that declares we need grace... then it is a sound argument to say that without the law there is no need for grace!
I love what Derwin Gray says. He says that basically (I'm paraphrasing) The awe factor of who Jesus is and what he has done produces passion which leads to obedience.
 
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Ken Rank

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I love what Derwin Gray says. He says that basically (I'm paraphrasing) The awe factor of who Jesus is and what he has done produces passion which leads to obedience.
:oldthumbsup: We should WANT to be like him. We have so demonized the law that the idea of walking in his footsteps, using him as our model (he did follow the law after all and not so that we didn't have to) is just more than we can conceive with developing a migraine! :)
 
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Sola1517

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:oldthumbsup: We should WANT to be like him. We have so demonized the law that the idea of walking in his footsteps, using him as our model (he did follow the law after all and not so that we didn't have to) is just more than we can conceive with developing a migraine! :)
Yes, the desire comes through the revelation of who Jesus. So what do you think Jesus meant when he said "I've come to fulfill the law"?
 
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Ken Rank

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Yes, the desire comes through the revelation of who Jesus. So what do you think Jesus meant when he said "I've come to fulfill the law"?
He said, "I have not come to abolish (or do away) with the law, I came to fulfill it." If "fulfill" means "do away with" then that verse is contradicting itself, which we know it can't be. The word for fulfill has an interesting entry in Thayer lexicon, basically it says that it means to fulfill in the sense of making God's promises known and the manner in which He desired the law to be walked out to be made manifest. In other words, He didn't come to do away with it, He came to show us how God expects us to walk it. The next two verse after that (Matthew 5:18-19) support that. There are other verses too that are just as plain. Consider this one...

Matthew 23:2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
Matthew 23:3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Moses' seat was the seat within the synagogue that the Pharisee or Scribe would sit and read the Torah in Sabbath. What Yeshua is saying is DO what they say from that seat, i.e. do the law... but don't do as they do because they are hypocrites.
 
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He said, "I have not come to abolish (or do away) with the law, I came to fulfill it." If "fulfill" means "do away with" then that verse is contradicting itself, which we know it can't be. The word for fulfill has an interesting entry in Thayer lexicon, basically it says that it means to fulfill in the sense of making God's promises known and the manner in which He desired the law to be walked out to be made manifest. In other words, He didn't come to do away with it, He came to show us how God expects us to walk it. The next two verse after that (Matthew 5:18-19) support that. There are other verses too that are just as plain. Consider this one...

Matthew 23:2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
Matthew 23:3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Moses' seat was the seat within the synagogue that the Pharisee or Scribe would sit and read the Torah in Sabbath. What Yeshua is saying is DO what they say from that seat, i.e. do the law... but don't do as they do because they are hypocrites.
So all of the Law of Moses applies still? Jesus didn't change anything about existence if that's the case.
 
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corinth77777

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1 John 3:4

Sin, according to the Apostle John is lawlessness. Other religions teach people to be moral just as much as Christianity does. So what law is John referring to? Does being saved mean following the Law of Moses or is there another law that we are to adhere to?

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. gal 3:12

rom. 14;23



And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

So then the transgression of the law...while its sin....its sin because its not of faith

We are to adhere to the law of faith, the law of love and the law of the spirit
 
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Sola1517

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And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. gal 3:12

rom. 14;23



And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Okay big question. Can the Holy Spirit command someone to do something that goes against Scripture?
 
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Ken Rank

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So all of the Law of Moses applies still? Jesus didn't change anything about existence if that's the case.
No, it has never "all" applied. :) 613 commandments... some are for women, are you a women? Some of Levites, are you a Levite? Some for when you are in the land with a King, some for the land itself, some for animals... and so forth. So not all of it has ever applied to any one person, including Messiah... well, unless you think the commandments dealing with feminine monthly issues apply to men. :) Anyway... there are anywhere from 80-120 commandments one can follow and that number varies depending on who is counting and how rigid they are. I am a little more liberal than most.
 
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Okay big question. Can the Holy Spirit command someone to do something that goes against Scripture?
Nope, never. Look at it is this way... God is a Spirit, the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. The commandments that are positive are in harmony with His character while the commandments that are negative (murder, stealing, etc.) are in opposition to His character. Since "character" and "name" in Hebrew are synonymous, then God can't have us break a command without profaning His own name.
 
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PollyJetix

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He said, "I have not come to abolish (or do away) with the law, I came to fulfill it." If "fulfill" means "do away with" then that verse is contradicting itself, which we know it can't be. The word for fulfill has an interesting entry in Thayer lexicon, basically it says that it means to fulfill in the sense of making God's promises known and the manner in which He desired the law to be walked out to be made manifest. In other words, He didn't come to do away with it, He came to show us how God expects us to walk it. The next two verse after that (Matthew 5:18-19) support that. There are other verses too that are just as plain. Consider this one...

Matthew 23:2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
Matthew 23:3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Moses' seat was the seat within the synagogue that the Pharisee or Scribe would sit and read the Torah in Sabbath. What Yeshua is saying is DO what they say from that seat, i.e. do the law... but don't do as they do because they are hypocrites.
Amen! Preach!
As Paul said clearly,
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:3-4
Therefore, those who are truly born again, and filled with the Spirit, and walk after the Spirit, will be living lives that mirror the same righteousness once revealed in the Law.

I'm not talking about ceremonial laws. Those types and shadows pointed to Christ, and Christ BECAME those things to us.
He is the only Sacrifice our sins and uncleanness will ever require.
And He is our Sabbath Rest, as we who have believed in Christ, have entered into Rest. (Hebrews 4:3)
And in cleansing the Gentiles, he broke down the wall of separation between the clean and unclean meats.
These things are fulfilled in Christ.

The glory of the old covenant is overwhelmed by the glory of Christ.
The condemnation of the Law is lifted. The curse is done away, for those in Christ.

But to those who do not believe, who are not born again, the Law still stands, and will be the standard by which the ungodly will be judged eventually. The Day of Grace suspends sentence, that all may find forgiveness at the cross... but the Day of Judgment will lower the sentence of eternal death on all who refused the only Way to fulfill the Law: Jesus Christ our Saviour.

We do not find justification by law, but by grace, through faith.
But if we are truly born again, we will be new creatures, pursuing holiness.
The same holiness of God once revealed in the moral code of the Law.
 
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1 John 3:4

Sin, according to the Apostle John is lawlessness. Other religions teach people to be moral just as much as Christianity does. So what law is John referring to? Does being saved mean following the Law of Moses or is there another law that we are to adhere to?

According to Romans 3:20, the Mosaic Law was given to make us conscious of sin and according to Romans 7:7, we would not if know what sin was if it weren't for the Law, the Law is straightforwardly how the Israelites knew what sin is, and it is how they knew what they should repent of doing when Jesus started his ministry with the Gospel of repenting from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

So yes, 1 John 3:4 is referring to the Mosaic Law, however, that does not mean that we are saved by following the Mosaic Law because it was never given for that purpose. According to Romans 4:1-8, Abraham was justified by faith, and everyone mentioned in Hebrews 11 was justified by faith, so the one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith, and God has not need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of justification through works when a perfectly good means of justification by faith was already in place. It has always been a fundamental misunderstand and perversion of the Law to think that obedience to it was about trying to become justified and Paul spent a lot of time hammering home the point that we are not justified by our obedience to the Law, but rather we are justified by faith apart from the Law. However, he went on to say that our faith does not do away with our need to obey the Law, but rather our faith upholds the Law (Romans 3:27-31). Jesus said that faith was one of the weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23) and that if we love him, then we obey his commands (John 14:15), so obedience to God has always been about demonstrating our faith in God about how we should live, about demonstrating our love for God, and thereby growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. So we are not justified by obedience to God's Law, but rather we are justified by faith, and by grace through the same faith we are required to obey God's Law.

Psalms 119:29 Put false ways far from me and graciously teach me your law!
 
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In the first century there were two schools of Pharisees, two sects of Pharisees. Beit Hillel (School of Hillel) and Beit Shamai. Both were known by what they taught... Beit Hillel taught "the spirit of the law" while Beit Shamai taught the "letter of the law." What is the difference? Well, depending on who you ask you might get a reply like, "by the spirit means we don't have to do anything but be led by the spirit." Sounds great...but not even close to being what was understood in that day. Yeshua showed us the spirit of the law when he talked about adultery. The letter said, "don't commit adultery" (the physical act) and Yeshua didn't take from that at all... he simply added, "look, when you do the deed in your heart it is just as bad." (my paraphrase) That doesn't abrogate the commandment to not commit that sin, he simply showed the depth to which God viewed these things. Adultery is still sin... but so is lusting in the heart even if you don't go through the act. Point is... we will all mess up and that is why God has to write the law on our minds and hearts.... we are incapable of keeping it there all the time on our own. :) Blessings.
 
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Sola1517

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Anyway... there are anywhere from 80-120 commandments one can follow and that number varies depending on who is counting and how rigid they are. I am a little more liberal than most.
So, you're theonomic.
 
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In the first century there were two schools of Pharisees, two sects of Pharisees. Beit Hillel (School of Hillel) and Beit Shamai. Both were known by what they taught... Beit Hillel taught "the spirit of the law" while Beit Shamai taught the "letter of the law." What is the difference? Well, depending on who you ask you might get a reply like, "by the spirit means we don't have to do anything but be led by the spirit." Sounds great...but not even close to being what was understood in that day. Yeshua showed us the spirit of the law when he talked about adultery. The letter said, "don't commit adultery" (the physical act) and Yeshua didn't take from that at all... he simply added, "look, when you do the deed in your heart it is just as bad." (my paraphrase) That doesn't abrogate the commandment to not commit that sin, he simply showed the depth to which God viewed these things. Adultery is still sin... but so is lusting in the heart even if you don't go through the act. Point is... we will all mess up and that is why God has to write the law on our minds and hearts.... we are incapable of keeping it there all the time on our own. :) Blessings.
Okay I'll read this later, c ya.
 
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Soyeong

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And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. gal 3:12

rom. 14;23



And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

So then the transgression of the law...while its sin....its sin because its not of faith

We are to adhere to the law of faith, the law of love and the law of the spirit

Indeed, the man-made works of law are not of faith in God, but obedience to God's commands is about demonstrating our faith in Him about how we should live, so God's Law is of faith. As Jesus said in Matthew 23:23, faith is one of the weightier aspects of the Law.
 
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Ken Rank

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So, you're theonomic.
No, we live in a secular society and have no authority to prosecute and pass judgement... which I am fine with. I do believe that we do what we can under the conditions we are in.... and when Yeshua comes and sets up His Kingdom (which is something I believe He will do) I do believe God's Law will be the standard. Of course, I also believe we will have been perfected, something that includes the law being written on our minds and hearts (perhaps part of our DNA?) but there appears to be those in the nations still, and I think we will take the Torah to them and teach them God's ways. I could be wrong... doesn't matter.... whatever happens at that time happens and I will be fine with it. :)
 
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Sola1517

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No, we live in a secular society and have no authority to prosecute and pass judgement... which I am fine with. I do believe that we do what we can under the conditions we are in.... and when Yeshua comes and sets up His Kingdom (which is something I believe He will do) I do believe God's Law will be the standard. Of course, I also believe we will have been perfected, something that includes the law being written on our minds and hearts (perhaps part of our DNA?) but there appears to be those in the nations still, and I think we will talk the Torah to them and teach them God's ways. I could be wrong... doesn't matter.... whatever happens at that time happens and I will be fine with it. :)
Right there with ya.
 
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Yes, the desire comes through the revelation of who Jesus. So what do you think Jesus meant when he said "I've come to fulfill the law"?

Jesus fulfilled the Law in the same sense that Romans 15:18-19 says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, namely he taught follow obedience to it in word and in deed, not that he did away with it. Furthermore, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so it likewise does not mean that we are doing away with the Law of Christ by bearing one another's burdens. According to Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, which means that it was not something unique that Jesus did, and not something that does away with it. Jesus summarized the Law and the Prophets as being instructions for how to love God and how to love our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so loving our neighbor fulfills the Law because it shows a full understanding of what the Law is essentially about.

In addition, Matthew 5:18 says that not the least part will disappear from the Law until heaven and earth pass away and all is accomplished, which are both ways of saying that it is never going to happen. He then went on in Matthew 5:19 to give a warning to those who would relax the least of the laws or teach other to do the same, so while I grant that the word "fulfill" can refer to bringing something to an end, such as fulfilling a contact, I find it very problematic to interpret the word in that way. According to Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal, so they not something that will ever come to an end, nor should we even want God's righteous standard to come to an end.

Thayer: Pleroo
  1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
    1. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
      1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
  2. to render full, i.e. to complete
    1. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
    2. to consummate: a number
      1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
      2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
    3. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
      1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
      2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
      3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

So I think it is the bolded definition is what fits the best within the context of the chapter and within the broader context of God consistently wanting His people to repent from their sins and return to obedience to His Law. To fulfill the Law was a rabbinic phrase that is found in other Jewish writings to refers people who correctly interpreted the Law or demonstrated a full understanding of the Law through words or deeds, while to abolish the Law referred to interpreting it in a way that undermined it. Whenever Jesus quoted from Scripture, he preceded by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from the teachers of the Law, he preceded it by saying "you have heard that it was said". In Matthew 5:17, Jesus was about to correct what the teachers of Law had been teaching, which would have sounded to them like he was undermining the Law, so he preceded that by saying that he came not to undermine the Law, but to fully teach it, and then proceeded to fulfill the Law six times throughout the rest of the chapter. For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

While the Law certainly commands us to love our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), it does not command us to hate our enemies, so Jesus was correcting what was wrongly being taught about the Law, not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by doing away with it or by making changes to it.
 
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