Signs of the Apostles.....Apostolic Uniqueness

[ARBITER01]

There were no sign gifts after the Apostles.

Explain this statement please. I don't need a thesis, just an overview, and I'll ask you questions if I need further clarification.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Explain this statement please. I don't need a thesis, just an overview, and I'll ask you questions if I need further clarification.

2cor12:12 sign gifts were used to establish Apostolic authority. Visible manifestations to prove God was instituting the New Covenant.

 

[ARBITER01]

2cor12:12 sign gifts were used to establish Apostolic authority. Visible manifestations to prove God was instituting the New Covenant.

While it is true that an Apostle needs those signs from GOD to verify his/her ministry before others, are you saying that no one in the NT operated in the gifts without being an apostle?

I'm not completely following your train of thought on this.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

While it is true that an Apostle needs those signs from GOD to verify his/her ministry before others, are you saying that no one in the NT operated in the gifts without being an apostle?
Of course not.1 cor12-14 were written to guide correct usage d u ring the foundational change from. OT to nt
2 cor. 3 and Hebrews.

 

[ARBITER01]

Of course not.1 cor12-14 were written to guide correct usage d u ring the foundational change from. OT to nt
2 cor. 3 and Hebrews.

Ok, well your original statement was this,...

There were no sign gifts after the Apostles.

At this point, what I'm looking for is a clear teaching on this, sections of scripture that establish this as true. I'm not seeing this taught from 2 Cor 12:12 very clearly at all, do you have another section of scripture that can verify your claim better?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

H

Ok, well your original statement was this,...

There were no sign gifts after the Apostles.

At this point, what I'm looking for is a clear teaching on this, sections of scripture that establish this as true. I'm not seeing this taught from 2 Cor 12:12 very clearly at all, do you have another section of scripture that can verify your claim better?

Hebrews 2:1-4 mk16:20.jn 14,15, 16.see the first 5 posts on this thread

 

[LoveofTruth]

And yet you ignore what is written? You have no verse that says sign gifts continue anywhere ..

The gifts are mentioned all through the New testament and nowhere said to have ceased.

But we read

"19 Quench not the Spirit.

20 Despise not prophesyings.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."(1 Thessalonians 5:19-23 KJV)

even at the end of acts we see gifts manifested

"8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:"(Acts 28:8,9 KJV)

All the gifts of God are needed as much today as they were then.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Find another means in the NT of giving the gifts and you will prove this wrong.

"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."(1 Cor 14:1 KJV)
no mention of them only coming by an apostle laying hands on them.

In fact in Acts 2 they were all filled with the Holy Ghost as they prayed.

"39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." (1 Cor 14:39 KJV)

Acts 4:31
"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

 

[Dave L]

"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."(1 Cor 14:1 KJV)
no mention of them only coming by an apostle laying hands on them.

In fact in Acts 2 they were all filled with the Holy Ghost as they prayed.

"39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." (1 Cor 14:39 KJV)

Acts 4:31
"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

“Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” (Acts 8:17–18) (KJV 1900)

 

[LoveofTruth]

“Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” (Acts 8:17–18) (KJV 1900)

no mention of laying on of hands in the verses I mentioned.

Paul simply says desire spiritual gifts and prayer is also part. Yes the gifts can be given through laying on of hands. But this is not only through the original apostles. The apostles after the resurrection are for the church also.

But we see men being filled with the Spirit with no laying on of hands in scripture.

I see the story in Acts as more specific to the Samaratins. God was showing them that salvation was through the Jews. I see this in that story. There are other aspects as well. Perhaps Philip did not have the gift to lay hands on them at that time. But there were other signs with him.

 

[LoveofTruth]

“Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” (Acts 8:17–18) (KJV 1900)

and Philip had the gifts of the Holy Ghost also

"5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed."(Acts 8:5-7 KJV)

 

[Dave L]

and Philip had the gifts of the Holy Ghost also

"5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed."(Acts 8:5-7 KJV)

Philip did not. The Apostles had to follow up with the gifts.

 

[Dave L]

no mention of laying on of hands in the verses I mentioned.

Paul simply says desire spiritual gifts and prayer is also part. Yes the gifts can be given through laying on of hands. But this is not only through the original apostles. The apostles after the resurrection are for the church also.

But we see men being filled with the Spirit with no laying on of hands in scripture.

I see the story in Acts as more specific to the Samaratins. God was showing them that salvation was through the Jews. I see this in that story. There are other aspects as well. Perhaps Philip did not have the gift to lay hands on them at that time. But there were other signs with him.

You need to show that God gave the gifts in another way besides the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Philip did not. The Apostles had to follow up with the gifts.

Philip just didn’t lay hands on them as the apostles did but Philip had gifts and for healing also read the text.

 

[Dave L]

Philip just didn’t lay hands on them as the apostles did but Philip had gifts and for healing also read the text.

Philip could not transfer the gifts. Only an Apostle could do this.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

The gifts are mentioned all through the New testament and nowhere said to have ceased.

But we read

"19 Quench not the Spirit.

20 Despise not prophesyings.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."(1 Thessalonians 5:19-23 KJV)

even at the end of acts we see gifts manifested

"8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:"(Acts 28:8,9 KJV)

All the gifts of God are needed as much today as they were then.

These instructions were written to them as these gifts were given at that time. The gifts were regulated.We now read them as historical to understand how redemptive history has progressed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Philip just didn’t lay hands on them as the apostles did but Philip had gifts and for healing also read the text.

The reality about this is that Luke reported just what he saw. He is not presenting the Samaritan event as doctrine to be followed by everyone.

The problem with some folk is they try to make a doctrine out of every verse of Scripture and every event. Take Paul's shipwreck for example, if we want to make a doctrine out of that in the same way as a doctrine is made out of the Samaritan even, then every time someone is in a shipwreck he needs angels to assist, a word from God to say that everyone is going to be saved. Otherwise, a Christian believer in a shipwreck is disobeying God because lives are lost.

Or, to get the Holy Spirit we have to tarry in Jerusalem, because that is what the disciples had to do. So if we make a doctrine out of that, we all have to journey to Jerusalem, find an upper room and wait there for the Holy Spirit to fall on us with a rushing mighty wind, tongues of fire, and to speak with tongues as the Spirit gives us utterance. Otherwise we cannot receive the Holy Spirit.

We must be consistent. If we make a doctrine out of the Samaritan event in Acts, we have to make a doctrine out of every event. So to spread the gospel anywhere, we need a vision of a man saying "come over and help us!"

So, I agree with you. The Samaritan event was just that, and it didn't mean that the Holy Spirit had to be conferred exactly the same in all cases.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

These instructions were written to them as these gifts were given at that time. The gifts were regulated.We now read them as historical to understand how redemptive history has progressed.

And Evolution is scientific fact and mankind evolved from monkeys.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

And Evolution is scientific fact and mankind evolved from monkeys.

Well it must be hard growing up in New Zealand

 

[ARBITER01]

H

Hebrews 2:1-4 mk16:20.jn 14,15, 16.see the first 5 posts on this thread

I looked through these sections of scripture that you mentioned, and there is nothing where The Holy Spirit specifically says that His gifts were to end at the death of the apostles.

I'm interested to see where this is in scripture, but I'm not seeing it so far.

Do you have anything that is specific?