Signs of the Apostles.....Apostolic Uniqueness

[LoveofTruth]

These instructions were written to them as these gifts were given at that time. The gifts were regulated.We now read them as historical to understand how redemptive history has progressed.

chapter and verse for your assumption?

I see nowhere in the New Tesament that says the Gifts have ceased or will cease until the coming of the Lord.

Then when that which is perfect has come Paul said he also would see face to face. As far as I know Paul did not see the completed canon or collection of books together called the "Bible". So He must be referring to the future when he is in the perfect body unto the perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, in that heavenly place where we know as we are known and when we shall be as he is (in 1 Cor).

 

[LoveofTruth]

I looked through these sections of scripture that you mentioned, and there is nothing where The Holy Spirit specifically says that His gifts were to end at the death of the apostles.

I'm interested to see where The Holy Spirit specifically says this in scripture, but I'm not seeing it so far.

Do you have anything specific in scripture?

The gifts have not ceased they may try to infer by their own understanding that they have by making a text say things it does not.

But when we see Him face to face then that which is in part will be done away and cease for we will apprehend that which we are also apprehended. or we will perceive the way we are perceived.

"11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:"(Philippians 3:11-13 KJV)

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Ok, well your original statement was this,...

There were no sign gifts after the Apostles.

At this point, what I'm looking for is a clear teaching on this, sections of scripture that establish this as true. I'm not seeing this taught from 2 Cor 12:12 very clearly at all, do you have another section of scripture that can verify your claim better?

Ar1,
Sometimes people are looking for one verse that answers all questions.
Instead of looking in the microscope so to speak, look from a satellite image.
God has an eternal plan that He is now manifesting to the church.eph:3:
9-11
The whole ot points you the servant of the Lord Coming to Zion.
The king comes to Zion and is rejected.
The prophecy of Joel 2, 3 are unfolded at Pentecost.
Peter says....this is that spoken of by Joel....it is fulfilled.
The ot is vanishing away2 cor3:....the new exodus is taking place in the church going to the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.
Apostolic as ign gifts confirm the new message, which is the fulfillment of the ot promises.
Hebrews is written to confirm it, and instruct Jews not to go back.
They believed in the law and the prophets, but now needed the Apostolic witness to move forward.
The sign gifts were not toys under the Christmas tree. They were not given so people could make silly rhyming noises and claim it was the annointing.
No....they were given to give us a sealed as no more sure we ordered 2 pet1:16-21.
God then seals revelation rev 22: 18,19.
We have the indwelling Spirit to be able to understand Divine truth.1 cor2

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

The gifts have not ceased they may try to infer by their own understanding that they have by making a text say things it does not.

But when we see Him face to face then that which is in part will be done away and cease for we will apprehend that which we are also apprehended. or we will perceive the way we are perceived.

"11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:"(Philippians 3:11-13 KJV)

It does not say...when we see him face to face....it says when the complete is come, that which is partial we I'll be done away.
Be truthful. You do not have any revelatory gift, no one does.
We have a completed revelation and the Spirit to guide us.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The reality about this is that Luke reported just what he saw. He is not presenting the Samaritan event as doctrine to be followed by everyone.

The problem with some folk is they try to make a doctrine out of every verse of Scripture and every event. Take Paul's shipwreck for example, if we want to make a doctrine out of that in the same way as a doctrine is made out of the Samaritan even, then every time someone is in a shipwreck he needs angels to assist, a word from God to say that everyone is going to be saved. Otherwise, a Christian believer in a shipwreck is disobeying God because lives are lost.

Or, to get the Holy Spirit we have to tarry in Jerusalem, because that is what the disciples had to do. So if we make a doctrine out of that, we all have to journey to Jerusalem, find an upper room and wait there for the Holy Spirit to fall on us with a rushing mighty wind, tongues of fire, and to speak with tongues as the Spirit gives us utterance. Otherwise we cannot receive the Holy Spirit.

We must be consistent. If we make a doctrine out of the Samaritan event in Acts, we have to make a doctrine out of every event. So to spread the gospel anywhere, we need a vision of a man saying "come over and help us!"

So, I agree with you. The Samaritan event was just that, and it didn't mean that the Holy Spirit had to be conferred exactly the same in all cases.

Yes I agree there are many things in the text that we do not read.

I see Acts 8 shows that Philip had spiritual gifts and for some reason the apostles had to come to the Samaritans to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Ghost. There may be an issue with the salvation is of the Jews statement Jesus gave to the Samaritan woman in John 4. They may not have understood this so by having a Jew to lay hands on them, this would infer that salvation is of the Jews and has always been. But again I am simply giving a interpretation of the event as I see from other text.

We do not see the laying on of hands in the upper room, they were praying and the Holy Ghost filled them. Also we see Cornelius a Gentile who when they had heard Peter preach the gospel the Holy Ghost fell on them as well. We do not read of laying on of hands. But I also believe the Holy Ghost is given through laying on of hands today, but those who are called to do such a work. And they may not be only apostles.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It does not say...when we see him face to face....it says we hen the complete is one, that which is partial we I'll be done away.
Be truthful. You do not have any revelatory gift, no one does.
We have a completed revelation and the Spirit to guide us.

I have had many revelations and spiritual events and gifts from God all through my ministry over a 30 year period. So many it would fill this post too much to share them all. But I have seen many wondrous things in the Lord .

Those who know the reality of God speaking to their heart as His sheep hear His voice and the reality of the gifts and power of God will not hear those who speculate and discount their walk with God.

But I pray you would consider the verses for the church about spiritual gifts and all the ministries. They are very needed today.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It does not say...when we see him face to face....it says when the complete is come, that which is partial we I'll be done away.
Be truthful. You do not have any revelatory gift, no one does.
We have a completed revelation and the Spirit to guide us.

"12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Paul personalizes this for himself as well.

compare with

"11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:"(Philippians 3:11-13 KJV)

Genesis 32:30
"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Exodus 33:11
And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend...."

"13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:...18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."(2 Cor 3:13,18 KJV)

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I have had many revelations and spiritual events and gifts from God all through my ministry over a 30 year period. So many it would fill this post too much to share them all. But I have seen many wondrous things in the Lord .

Those who know the reality of God speaking to their heart as His sheep hear His voice and the reality of the gifts and power of God will not hear those who speculate and discount their walk with God.

But I pray you would consider the verses for the church about spiritual gifts and all the ministries. They are very needed today.

I am sure you believe that. I am not called on to judge stories but rather to understand and obey scripture.
Many claim to be "moving in the Spirit" but in reality it is the flesh.
I have a charismatic friend who was blind in one eye making such claims.
He was blind in one eye, it had a large white spot on it.
I asked him if what he said was true,why is he still lacking sight in that err ye?
He said he has claimed the healing, but it has not manifested itself yet.
I still believe he is a brother despite his make believe theology,name err it and claim it nonsense.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

"12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Paul personalizes this for himself as well.

compare with

"11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:"(Philippians 3:11-13 KJV)

Genesis 32:30
"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Exodus 33:11
And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend...."

"13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:...18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."(2 Cor 3:13,18 KJV)

Of Course we will will see him face to face. But the text does not say that in reference to tongues. It says tongues will cease.
It says partial knowledge will be completed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes i agree there are many things in the text that we do not read.

I see Acts 8 shows that Philip had spiritual gifts and for some reason the apostles had to come to the Samaritans to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Ghost. There may be an issue with the salvation is of the Jews statement Jesus gave to the Samaritan woman in John 4. They may not have understood this so by having a Jew to lay hands on them, this would infer that salvation is of the Jews and has always been. But again I am simply giving a interpretation of the event as I see from other text.

We do not see the laying on of hands in the upper room, they were praying and the Holy Ghost filled them. Also we see Cornelius a Gentile who when they had heard peter preach the gospel the Holy Ghost fell on them as well. We do not read of laying on of hands. But I also believe the Holy Ghost is given through laying on of hands today, but those who are called to do such a work. And they may not be only apostles.

We also have to remember that Acts describes the church in its infancy. A lot of new things were being introduced that had never happened before and a lot of new ground was being prepared. It was a Jewish doctrine that blessing and authority was conferred by the laying on of hands. So, I see Peter and John just following what they knew at the time.

There is no record that Paul laid hands on anyone to receive the Holy Spirit, and yet the Corinthians had the gifts operating in their church. We are not told how they received their gifts, seeing that it was Apollos and Paul who founded the church. Peter is mentioned, but he might not have been there in person. Timothy had hands laid on him, but that was to ordain him as the bishop of the churches, not to receive the Holy Spirit.

Paul himself had hands laid on him by Ananias to receive his sight and be filled with the Spirit, and Ananias was not an Apostle. But he was certainly following God's direct instructions given to him in a vision. So that blows the theory that the Holy Spirit can be conferred only by the laying on of the hands of an original Apostle. Furthermore if Timothy had hands laid on him to be filled with the Spirit it was not from the Apostles but from the presbytery (church elders).

I have a vision: I see the Zeppelin carrying the conferring the Holy Spirit only through the original Apostles going down in flames!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have had many revelations and spiritual events and gifts from God all through my ministry over a 30 year period. So many it would fill this post too much to share them all. But I have seen many wondrous things in the Lord .

Those who know the reality of God speaking to their heart as His sheep hear His voice and the reality of the gifts and power of God will not hear those who speculate and discount their walk with God.

But I pray you would consider the verses for the church about spiritual gifts and all the ministries. They are very needed today.

The experience of the reality of the power of the Holy Spirit in healing, deliverance and other miracles wins over theoretical and religious arguments every time!

 

[LoveofTruth]

I am sure you believe that. I am not called on to judge stories but rather to understand and obey scripture.
Many claim to be "moving in the Spirit" but in reality it is the flesh.
I have a charismatic friend who was blind in one eye making such claims.
He was blind in one eye, it had a large white spot on it.
I asked him if what he said was true,why is he still lacking sight in that err ye?
He said he has claimed the healing, but it has not manifested itself yet.
I still believe he is a brother despite his make believe theology,name err it and claim it nonsense.

I don't say anything has happened in healing until the healing happens. I don't agree with those who are sick and claim they are not.

But there are various reasons why a person may not be healed immediately or even at all as a believer. We see examples of similar things in scripture.

Even a double portion anointed prophet can get sick and die

"14 Now Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness whereof he died..."(2 Kings 13:14 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

The experience of the reality of the power of the Holy Spirit in healing, deliverance and other miracles wins over theoretical and religious arguments every time!

Yes as long as the person who is in them is in Christ. Some in cults and other religions can claim them as well, but the true is in Christ.

 

[ARBITER01]

Ar1,
Sometimes people are looking for one verse that answers all questions.
Instead of looking in the microscope so to speak, look from a satellite image.

Well that was a very specific statement you made, why can't we see something specific in scripture to affirm this claim?

Something where The Holy Spirit says "after the 12 apostles, no more apostles," or after Paul, no more gifts.

There has to be something specifically said or taught by The Holy Spirit on this, or I'm to assume that the statement is false.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't say anything has happened in healing until the healing happens. I don't agree with those who are sick and claim they are not.

But there are various reasons why a person may not be healed immediately or even at all as a believer. We see examples of similar things in scripture.

Even a double portion anointed prophet can get sick and die

"14 Now Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness whereof he died..."(2 Kings 13:14 KJV)

Mark says that they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. Recovery can take time. Instant healing is part of the working of miracles. When hands are laid on a sick person, they should not get sicker, but turn around onto the road of recovery. It may take a few minutes, hours, days, or even weeks, but the process is started by the laying on of hands.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes as long as the person who is in them is in Christ. Some in cults and other religions can claim them as well, but the true is in Christ.

It was interesting for me to hear a testimony of a person who was healed through the occult, and when he came to Christ he lost the healing and had to be ministered to again.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I am sure you believe that. I am not called on to judge stories but rather to understand and obey scripture.

we can judge all things in Christ and prove all things.

Tell me what you think this event was. Just one of many

A true event.

I was standing on the corner of the chief place of concourse in the city with another brother and waiting on the Lord, praying and ready to preach. I prayed and said to the other brother with me "we need something to stand on like a ladder". A few moments after I had said that, my other brother in Christ Tim, drove up along the street and parked right at that area. He stepped out of his station wagon and said hello and told us that he had something for us. He then went into the back of his station wagon and pulled out a ladder for us to use. I was amazed and rejoiced, I told him that I just prayed and told my other brother in Christ that we needed a ladder to stand on.

We both rejoiced and set the ladder up on the large area on the corner. It was busy downtown and as I climbed up the ladder I could see over all the people. I saw a little ways down the street a large crowd gathered around some break dancers on the street and a big circular water sprinkler near them about a few feet high. I was led to go over to that section and wait on the Lord before I preached. It seemed strange, but the ladder was needed to see over the people to the area God wanted us to go.

So we went over to that area and I stood up on a large water sprinkler . It was concrete and had a flat concrete top prefect for standing on. I waited on the Lord and stood there as the break dancers continued in the heat of the day. I waited for a few minutes. Then as soon as they finished doing their dancing and the music ceased, I was filled with boldness and began to preach repentance and the gospel. I showed them their sins and warned them of the judgement to come, the word was mighty in me that day.
As I began to preach the crowd listened, but one of the young men who was break dancing who had no shirt on and was angry, came towards me and began to yell at the top of his lungs cursing and speaking against me and the things I said. He appeared to be possessed. I say this because I noticed that his voice changed and he had different tones and his stomach began to convulse in and our, his eye raged even more. For some reason at that moment I was led to step down and speak right to him in front of him and all the witnesses. I asked him a few questions and tried to speak of Christ to him.As I was talking to him he raised his fist and said he was going to smash me and hit me in the face and just as he pulled his fist back and was about to hit me, my other brother Tim raised his hand over my shoulder and rebuked him in the name of Jesus Christ. At this very moment, without touching the man he grabbed his ears in terror in front of all and fell to the ground shaking and screaming noooooo, nooooo arghhhh . It was amazing to see the power of God in such a demonstration. All the crowd watched on and I stood behind my brothers back as he held his hand in the air and I said to the people that there is power in the name of Jesus. These things we speak of are real, and that we are not playing games with their souls, many are in great danger. I told them many things in the power of the Lord. The man on the ground, who was screaming holding his ears scurried away and a few times came rushing at us again. I then raised my hand in the air the second time and he fell to the ground holding his ears screaming. This happened a few times. He even tried throwing a pop can at us. Others restrained him and after wards we shared the gospel with those who came up to talk with us.

This is real and really happened. God still works might deed through his ministers.

You can believe it or not. But I tell you the truth.

Some my simply try to find fault with what I said and did that day. But others know of the reality of spiritual things and can attest to these things.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It was interesting for me to hear a testimony of a person who was healed through the occult, and when he came to Christ he lost the healing and had to be ministered to again.

Yes that is interesting.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well that was a very specific statement you made, why can't we see something specific in scripture to affirm this claim?

Something where The Holy Spirit says "after the 12 apostles, no more apostles," or after Paul, no more gifts.

There has to be something specifically said or taught by The Holy Spirit on this, or I'm to assume that the statement is false.

I tried to get him to do that, but he has not been able to as yet.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Mark says that they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. Recovery can take time. Instant healing is part of the working of miracles. When hands are laid on a sick person, they should not get sicker, but turn around onto the road of recovery. It may take a few minutes, hours, days, or even weeks, but the process is started by the laying on of hands.

Yes and I believe James speaks of elders and the sick also. It doesn't specifically say apostles.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I am sure you believe that.

What do you call this event that happened to me?

Another true event:

I was led of the Lord one day to go into a large man made edifice, unbiblically called by some a "church", (it was a Roman Catholic structure)

I was led to sit down and wait. So I did so. Just then the man called "a priest" came behind me and asked me a question, I responded and he could see my discussion with him was getting a bit loud for the others who were sitting around so he went into his back office to discuss. I told him of His sin and error and shared the scriptures to correct him. He tried to laugh it off as he was obviously troubled and trembling his face was turned red with nervous anxiety. I left him in his sin after sharing the word of truth to him and warned him. Then I went out of that place and walked across the road.

As I walked to the other side, a man was also walking right towards me. We both met on the corner. He asked me for money and he was slightly drunk. I told him of Jesus and his need for salvation but he was obstinate and rebellious. Then I said to him as I pointed towards him words that just came out of my mouth. I told him that if he kept going the way he was going he would walk across the road get hit by a car and break his leg. He scoffed at me and walked away.

About a week or so I was downtown again with another brother witnessing in a different area of the city and I saw the same man walk up towards me and my brother in Christ and he had a large cast on his leg as he walked with crutches. When he saw me he stopped in the street and was startled. I walked over to him and said hello and asked him what happened. He said he walked across the road got hit by a car and broke his leg. He was shaken, very sober and frightened. I told him, did he remember the word I spoke to him before. He said yes. I then told him more of the Lord and shared the truth with him. We went after this and bought him some food and prayed as he went away.

Now what do you call that word given to him? And the fact that it came true 100 percent?

These are true events I lie not.