Signs of the Apostles.....Apostolic Uniqueness

[ICONO'CLAST]

From the 1689 Confession of faith;
Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )

We will begin to make the case from scripture.....

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

The Apostles and Nt. prophets were specially chosen instruments of God.

mk3
14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

1jn1:
1 John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

2pet1:
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Jesus having concluded His public ministry gives special instructions to the Apostles-

jn14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

jn14:
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

jn15:
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

jn16:
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

The Apostles were guided into ALL TRUTH.

God promised them he would bring all things to their remembrance whatsoever He taught them.

God said He would show them things to come.

God gave signs and wonders to authenticate His word. 2 Cor12
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Heb2:
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Now we look in Acts:3

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.

8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:

10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.

11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

This miracle caused the people to listen to the Apostolic sermon, they were granted repentance and faith by God.

 

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Acts4:
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

 

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Acts5:
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.

14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
Acts14
2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.

3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is nothing that I disagree with so far. The godly men who wrote the 1689 Confession of Faith sincerely believed that the supernatural signs and wonders had actually ceased. I don't have a problem with that. But none of the Scriptures you have quoted indicate that the signs and wonders ceased because God intended them to cease before the Second Coming of Christ. So, I'm looking forward to those Scriptures!

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

There is nothing that I disagree with so far. The godly men who wrote the 1689 Confession of Faith sincerely believed that the supernatural signs and wonders had actually ceased. I don't have a problem with that. But none of the Scriptures you have quoted indicate that the signs and wonders ceased because God intended them to cease before the Second Coming of Christ. So, I'm looking forward to those Scriptures!

I am glad we can find at least partial agreement. In the other thread, you were correct about the carnal Christian heresy, and yet very wrong about Charles Finney

 

[Albion]

There is nothing that I disagree with so far. The godly men who wrote the 1689 Confession of Faith sincerely believed that the supernatural signs and wonders had actually ceased. I don't have a problem with that. But none of the Scriptures you have quoted indicate that the signs and wonders ceased because God intended them to cease before the Second Coming of Christ. So, I'm looking forward to those Scriptures!

Which is it -- did they or were we expecting them not to?


The issue really is this: did tongues cease to be a significant part of the life of the church? Yes or no. It is a matter of history. Cessationists are merely pointing to the fact that they did.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

There is nothing that I disagree with so far. The godly men who wrote the 1689 Confession of Faith sincerely believed that the supernatural signs and wonders had actually ceased. I don't have a problem with that. But none of the Scriptures you have quoted indicate that the signs and wonders ceased because God intended them to cease before the Second Coming of Christ. So, I'm looking forward to those Scriptures!

The Apostolic sign gifts...were signs of the Apostles...they have ceased their ministry on earth but the signs were used to establish the word of God as being given through the Apostles as Jesus promised them...Uniquely. The purpose of the signs were to credential the word...look in 1Jn as to what the testing of the Spirits;
1jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

eph2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Jude 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

1cor12:
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

isa28:
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


1cor14
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Which is it -- did they or were we expecting them not to?


The issue really is this: did tongues cease to be a significant part of the life of the church? Yes or no. It is a matter of history. Cessationists are merely pointing to the fact that they did.

Yes indeed:
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

John MacArthur
Gifts are temporary. Notice verse 8, “Love never fails.” That’s the great statement that covers the rest of the chapter. Now, he begins to discuss the temporary nature of gifts. “But whether there be prophecies, they shall be rendered inoperative” – or abolished or done away – “whether there be tongues, they shall stop by themselves” – in the middle voice – “whether there be knowledge, it shall be rendered inoperative” – be abolished or be done away

.
Now, we saw last time that there is an interesting distinction made in the use of the verbs with prophecy and knowledge as over against tongues. And in relation to tongues, we saw that the verb that is used in the form that it is used says tongues will stop by themselves. And then we did some discussion as to whether they had, in fact, stopped. And we determined that they had, biblically, three purposes.

Number one, the purpose of tongues could be seen as revelatory. In other words, God was actually revealing His Word through that gift on occasions. And we determined that the revelation has already been given, “Once for all delivered to the saints,” so that purpose for tongues would have ceased.

Secondly, we saw that tongues was also a confirmation, a wonder gift, confirming the apostles and the prophets and their apostolic ministry. And since there are no longer apostles and prophets, as we have seen from Ephesians 2:20, that part of the gift of tongues had no further need to exist because there is no authenticating of such men today.

Thirdly, we saw from the New Testament that tongues was a sign of judicial punishment on the covenant people, Israel, which punishment was carried out in 70 A.D. Consequently, the sign no longer needs to be in existence today. And history, then, corroborated for us that tongues did, in fact, cease until approximately 1900, when this modern movement began.

So we said that tongues have ceased,

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

There is nothing that I disagree with so far. The godly men who wrote the 1689 Confession of Faith sincerely believed that the supernatural signs and wonders had actually ceased. I don't have a problem with that. But none of the Scriptures you have quoted indicate that the signs and wonders ceased because God intended them to cease before the Second Coming of Christ. So, I'm looking forward to those Scriptures!

I noticed that you and others listen to the twice divorced storyteller Joyce Meyer as she lives in her mansion and promotes the false word of faith movement. She has several heretical teachings that are easily discoverable.
Those who obey scripture denounce such persons as a plague and judgment on the nation and those who listen to such heretics.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I noticed that you and others listen to the twice divorced storyteller Joyce Meyer as she lives in her mansion and promotes the false word of faith movement. She has several heretical teachings that are easily discoverable.
Those who obey scripture denounce such persons as a plague and judgment on the nation and those who listen to such heretics.

I viewed four hours of her teaching via Youtube this week. I had heard and read the criticisms about her so I decided to see her ministry for myself. I found nothing in her teaching that was not consistent with Scripture. In fact she based her teaching on Scripture.

In my 50 years of experience of churches and ministries I have learned that 50,000 people don't fill a stadium to hear a preacher who does not have a ministry that gives sound Bible teaching about practical Christian living and feeds people's souls in the Lord.

I have also learned that those who criticise ministries like Joyce Meyer's are talking from jealous and envious hearts because they haven't got what she has got in terms of the number of people wanting to hear what she has to say, and the material possessions she has.

I don't see widespread criticisms of movie stars and CEOs of major corporations who live in bigger mansions than her being attacked and criticised like she is. And those movie stars who have had multiple divorces are celebrated for the movies they make and people don't worry about their personal lives when they go and see them.

Envy and jealousy can be deeply hidden heart sins and some people who criticise others are not aware of what spirit is motivating them, but God sees and He makes sure they remain spiritually barren until they allow the Holy Spirit to search their hearts and they repent and ask God to restore a right spirit in them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

isa28:
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


1cor14
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

None of the Scriptures you are quoting are proving anything one way or another. If you are using these to try and prove that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit have ceased, what you have quoted so far is not convincing at all. You have not provided one Scripture that says plainly that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit meant to be temporary for the early stage of the Church.

You will have to come up with better than that if you are to persuade an old spiritual war horse like me!

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I viewed four hours of her teaching via Youtube this week. I had heard and read the criticisms about her so I decided to see her ministry for myself. I found nothing in her teaching that was not consistent with Scripture. In fact she based her teaching on Scripture.

In my 50 years of experience of churches and ministries I have learned that 50,000 people don't fill a stadium to hear a preacher who does not have a ministry that gives sound Bible teaching about practical Christian living and feeds people's souls in the Lord.

I have also learned that those who criticise ministries like Joyce Meyer's are talking from jealous and envious hearts because they haven't got what she has got in terms of the number of people wanting to hear what she has to say, and the material possessions she has.

I don't see widespread criticisms of movie stars and CEOs of major corporations who live in bigger mansions than her being attacked and criticised like she is. And those movie stars who have had multiple divorces are celebrated for the movies they make and people don't worry about their personal lives when they go and see them.

Envy and jealousy can be deeply hidden heart sins and some people who criticise others are not aware of what spirit is motivating them, but God sees and He makes sure they remain spiritually barren until they allow the Holy Spirit to search their hearts and they repent and ask God to restore a right spirit in them.

Pimps and drug dealers make a lot of money also...no one envied them on judgment day.
Crowds go to hear Joel Osteen and he does not preach the gospel.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

None of the Scriptures you are quoting are proving anything one way or another. If you are using these to try and prove that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit have ceased, what you have quoted so far is not convincing at all. You have not provided one Scripture that says plainly that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit meant to be temporary for the early stage of the Church.

You will have to come up with better than that if you are to persuade an old spiritual war horse like me!

The scriptures do give the correct teaching. That you do not seem to grasp the import of the teaching is not the fault of the verses offered.
Now you claim the false teacher Joyce Meyer is solid?
When you turn from scriptural teaching only error is left.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Pimps and drug dealers make a lot of money also...no one envied them on judgment day.
Crowds go to hear Joel Osteen and he does not preach the gospel.

I've never viewed him or listened to his preaching so I can't comment.
Let's face it, if you or I got into a job that earned a truck load of money each payday, wouldn't we sell our present home and buy a bigger one? I would. I would sell my 2-1/2 bedroom suburban townhouse and buy one of the million dollar houses over on the wealthy side of the city! I would trade in my 2001 Nissan Pulsar for a brand new BMW! Or, I could move to the city where my daughter and her fiance are living, and buy a large house with six bedrooms four bathrooms, two lounges, two kitchens, and then have her living in one wing and my wife and I in the other! If I had the money to do that, why shouldn't I?

So, when I get up in church and preach the Sunday sermon, would I then be a false teacher because I had a extra large house and the latest model Road-Hog Special motor car?