Should Secession be an option?

Gxg (G²)

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States like Croatia seceded (legally, if I recall correctly). But this started a seccessionist movement within Croatia, with Serb-majority regions seeking to break away and rejoin Yugoslavia or some Greater Serb state.

Borders may be fixed legal realities, but cultural borders do not always conform to legal ones.
What you note is part of what I was thinking earlier. For seccession seems to be a matter of Federalism vs Anti-Federalism - and within the dyanmic of States arguing if they can seceede...you have communities within the states wondering if they have to do everything that their states demand/place up (in the event that they disagree with it).
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Some smaller states might get run over fairly easily, however I think Texas could hold it's own.

Even if iTexas holds it own, for other countries wishing to jump in and get their share, I can easily see that we'd be back at where we were during the Civil War.

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ThatRobGuy

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I'd like to know what that professor studies. Also what strain of pot he smokes.

In looking at the map the Russian professor put together, it looks like he's just trying to find a sneaky way to steal Alaska from us ^_^

The Russian professor also appears to be clueless in terms of our social dynamics in various states.

He's got NY and SC lumped in the same group :doh:
 
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Easy G (G²);61950499 said:
What you note is part of what I was thinking earlier. For seccession seems to be a matter of Federalism vs Anti-Federalism - and within the dyanmic of States arguing if they can seceede...you have communities within the states wondering if they have to do everything that their states demand/place up (in the event that they disagree with it).

It's an interesting issue. From my understanding, only states have the right to secede (if the legal framework is there), not communities or townships within those states. That said, Kosovo has seceded from Serbia despite the fact that it is not a state, but a province. Do Serb-majority areas in the north of Kosovo have the right to secede and rejoin Serbia? Does Kosovo even have the right to secede to begin with, given that it is a province, not a state in a federal Serbia?

Relating these questions back to the current thread, what are the limits on secession? Do those who support secession for states similarly support secession for regions within states? Where does the right to secede end? At the level of the state, the town, the neighbourhood, or even the individual household?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Secession was the key point that made us a nation in the first place. Simply reading the declaration of independence we have to by our nature honor the idea of succession if states feel called to it.

Succession in 1860 however was different. The only reason the south succeeded was for slavery. Some southerners will tell you it was for "states rights," but really what was the only right they were talking about? Only slavery which really opposed the views of the founding fathers, Jefferson wanted to make it illegal in the original draft of the constitution but he was talked out of it so they southern states would support he war, Jefferson understood slavery was a battle for another day.

In the movie Gettysburg Robert E Lee says "we should have freed the slaves and then attacked Ft Sumter". If that was really how the south felt, and they did that, we'd be looking at the south a lot different. The Union certainly had it's faults as well, Lincoln originally avoided the slavery issue at all costs, and some suggest Lincoln used the slavery issue to hold control of the south and it wasn't really a priority to the Union at all. The North was no lest racist then the south. Robert E Lee and Jackson were very Godly men, but really I think The Union had a real case there because the South was not protecting the rights of all of it's inhabitants, if the south had just disagreed in ideology and how to run their states it would have been a different scenario.
It is indeed true that the North, concerning slavery/racism, had just as many issues as the South - with the North practicing slavery via wage slavery where blacks were able to integrate/not be in chains and yet not have equal access to resources as whites did...thus being regulated to the slums. The South would later allow Neo-Slavery in the form of Jim Crow after the Reconstruction -and many historians have pointed out where Lincoln was really only concerned with slavery in the sense of severe abuse toward slaves - but never had any remote concern for the slaves being seen as intellectual/moral equals to whites (more noted in-depth here in #1). He even noted directly that he would have sought to win the Civil War without freeing blacks if he could of - and thus, many blacks/whites felt it was about pragmatism on the part of the North more so than concern for the plight of blacks.

Nonetheless, what the South was doing was without excuse - and the issue of slavery was long in view. For after the American Revolution, the issue of how to address blacks was an elephant in the room that would not go away if the ideals of freedom were to be truly supported as were proclaimed - and as Fredrick Douglass noted, what was the 4th of July to a Slave but American Hypocrisy?

The film "Amistad" does an excellent job on the issue, discussing one of the key cases that led into the Civil War later. Amistad was the name of a slave ship traveling from Cuba to the U.S. in 1839. It was carrying a cargo of Africans who have been sold into slavery in Cuba, stolen/beaten and taken on board, and chained in the cargo hold of the ship. As the ship was crossing from Cuba to the U.S., Cinque, who was a tribal leader in Africa, lead a mutiny and took over the ship. They continued to sail, hoping to find help when they landed. Instead, when they reached the United States, they were imprisoned as runaway slaves. They didn't speak a word of English, and it seemed like they are doomed to die for killing their captors when an abolitionist lawyer decided to take their case, arguing that they were free citizens of another country and not slaves at all. The case finally got to the Supreme Court, where John Quincy Adams made an impassioned and eloquent plea for their release.

John Quincy Adams prophesied how the Civil War itself would indeed be the completion of the American Revolution if slavery could not be resolved properly...


Sadly his words were not heard - and many have long made it out as if the slavery issue was not a key issue behind the secession of the Southern States. As much as others may feel that it should have been allowed and the Union fought against, there were MANY things at stake that caused a lot of reasons to be fearful. For the secession made room for other nations to jump in and support an immoral practice on a global scale.

Many have no idea on how they were Confederate Slave owners who moved to Brazil (called the Confederados), as the slave trade was international and it opened up doors for commerce/business relationships throughout the Americas.

As another noted:
During its heyday in the nineteenth century, the African slave trade was fueled by the close relationship of the United States and Brazil. The Deepest South tells the disturbing story of how U.S. nationals - before and after Emancipation -- continued to actively participate in this odious commerce by creating diplomatic, social, and political ties with Brazil, which today has the largest population of African origin outside of Africa itself.

Proslavery Americans began to accelerate their presence in Brazil in the 1830s, creating alliances there—sometimes friendly, often contentious—with Portuguese, Spanish, British, and other foreign slave traders to buy, sell, and transport African slaves, particularly from the eastern shores of that beleaguered continent.


Spokesmen of the Slave South drew up ambitious plans to seize the Amazon and develop this region by deporting the enslaved African-Americans there to toil. When the South seceded from the Union, it received significant support from Brazil, which correctly assumed that a Confederate defeat would be a mortal blow to slavery south of the border. After the Civil War, many Confederates, with slaves in tow, sought refuge as well as the survival of their peculiar institution in Brazil.
The history of the Conferados is truly fascinating..and for more, one can investigate a read entitled "The Deepest South: The United States, Brazil, and the African Slave Trade" ( ):

Having roots in Latin America, I'm aware of how the abuses in slavery were even worse there (and in the West Indies as well) than in North America....and I know there has always been strong racism present due to what the Portuguese and Spaniards did in coming over/setting up the systems they did. Thus, no surprise to see what happened with the active development of relationship between others in the American South and those in the Southern Hemisphere. The American Civil war even managed to spill into Brazil, as seen in the Bahia Incident ( a naval skirmish fought in late 1864 during the American Civil War where a Confederate States Navy warship was captured by a Union warship in Bahia Harbor, Brazil...and the engagement resulted in a United States victory, but also sparked an incident with the Brazilian government, which claimed the Americans had violated Brazil's neutrality by illegally attacking a vessel in their harbor..nore shared here).

The SOuthern States that desired to secede wanted to create a new International Empire called the "Golden Circle" that would've taken slavery onto an entirely different level. For what occurred with the Golden Circle (proposed country) was the unrealized pan-Caribbean political alliance of the 1850s, organized chiefly by United States adventurers, and envisioned the incorporation of several countries and states of the Americas into a federal union similar to the United States...it would've forced the states in the U.S to really reconsider a lot of things.

The balance of power between the northern and southern U.S. states was threatened by the proposed Golden Circle since Federalists feared that a new Caribbean-centered coalition would align the new Latin American states with the slave states in the US..tilting the balance of power southward and weakening U.S. federalism in favor of the Pan-American confederalist union, whereas those Americans in favor of the Gold Circle believed that an alignment with the remaining slaveholding Caribbean territories would reinforce their political strength.

Some have noted where there were black slave owners and having them involved made a difference - as seen in Black slave owners in the Golden Circle | Southern Nationalist - and it's amazing seeing how the narrative of all blacks being against the confederacy doesn't line up with history.

For more, one can study Chesteron's 1922 work called What I Saw in America. What Chesteron noted is especially considering the timing of it being written in 1922. This was less than 60 years removed from the Civil War. That would be like someone writing about Korea and Vietnam right now. The memories and direct consequences of those wars are still very real to us today. Chesterton was born in 1874, only four years after Virginia itself was re-admitted to the Union (1870). The crushing of secession was ultimately written down in history as the “right” thing to do, only because, ultimately, most Southerners accepted it as simply immutable. ...and to be clear, as many blacks fought in the Civil War on the side of the South for their own reasons (freedom being one of them (more here/here /here)as well as the fact that not all in the South endorsed slavery nor abuse as many in the North claimed---and for them, the North often didn't have much to offer). The Reconstruction was to be the re-programming of the Southern mind. It worked, and now Lincoln is seen as great. If, as Chesterton alludes to with his Irish example, the Southern spirit had continued to buck against centralized government and the resistance had continued into the twentieth century, Lincoln would be viewed more like Cromwell than Bismark.

And had the Confederacy won, who knows the ways things would have turned out for others in the Caribbean. There were people on both sides concerned for the welfare of minorities...and there were people on both sides who couldn't of cared less about the plight of blacks. History is truly complicated...

There's actually a very amazing mockumentary on the issue entitled C.S.A.: The Confederate States of America (more shared here ) -as it explores the results of a Southern victory in the Civil War and posits the Golden Circle as a plan enacted after the war. One of the most wild and yet challenging critiques I've ever come across...


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Gxg (G²)

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It's an interesting issue. From my understanding, only states have the right to secede (if the legal framework is there), not communities or townships within those states. That said, Kosovo has seceded from Serbia despite the fact that it is not a state, but a province. Do Serb-majority areas in the north of Kosovo have the right to secede and rejoin Serbia? Does Kosovo even have the right to secede to begin with, given that it is a province, not a state in a federal Serbia?

Relating these questions back to the current thread, what are the limits on secession? Do those who support secession for states similarly support secession for regions within states? Where does the right to secede end? At the level of the state, the town, the neighbourhood, or even the individual household?

Very good points to consider concerning the situation with Kosovo, as it concerns regions within the states and the ways they interact.

Part of me is reminded - based on what you brought up - on the issues of what happens when groups living in certain regions are not really recognized or acknowledged as being a part of the State - and thus, you have a town or a community that is disenfranchised. SOmething many have pointed out as a BIG deal to consider when states want to secede since you have many people in the state wanting to do so and yet no one asks what will happen to the groups within those states that NEVER wanted to break away ....and to take it further, groups within the states that didn't want to break away because they felt that there was already angst against them for growing in power/influence and going against the historical background of the groups wanting secession.

I say that in light of how many in the States wanting secession have noted that the desires for such are very much connected to racially charged issues - considering how most of those who are minorities in those states NEVER wanted to break away and have often gotten either harrassment or attempts at trying to suppress their voice by the other majorities crying out for a break away the moment they began to gain more influence/prestige. When a State breaks away, you either suppress the groups that didn't want it - or you make life miserable for them/try to get them to leave (thus increasing dominance) or you make room for civil war.

Historically, what you noted happening with Kosovo choosing to seceded from Serbia has also happened with the states that wanted to secede is that they also suppressed other groups within their own spheres that didn't agree with their own programs. It's one of the reasons why there was systematic eradication of American Indians and breaking of treaties made for them - for with the American Indians, they were like people doing their own thing/feeling caught in the middle. Obviously, The United States was not always divided into the 50 states we know today. Many distinct Indian tribes originally inhabited each of the regions that are now part of the country.

new_map.jpg

Living on land that other settlers came in, built communities within - and then when those communities got big enough, they began to have arguments on how they didn't want a large government telling them what to do - and yet they understood that you couldn't have a Sovereign nation living within another Sovereign nation.

Because of those realities, even the States trying to secede were willing to do the same things they complained about/crush the American Indians who lived within their areas and yet didn't have the same ideas or concepts about land that they had. To the American Indians, you couldn't buy land since it was a communal resource available for EVERYONE - and even though treaties were made to give them reservations, when a group of settlers found another reason to take more land to benefit them, they were kicked out further.

And with other nations having their own agendas, all of the land purchases were significantly high profile...and the Indian Territory (although limited and at one point set somewhat) continually getting smaller and smaller.

At one point, In 1830, the Indian Removal Act, set forth by president Andrew Jackson, insured that the government had the power they needed to move those Natives remaining east of the Mississippi, either through coercion or force. They typically made offers of land and cash, getting tribal leaders to sign whatever treaty it was that would move their particular tribe. Of course, once they got there, they discovered they had been duped, finding themselves on whatever land had the least value to the U.S. government and its settlers.

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As of 1828, Indian Territory covered Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa and Nebraska, which also happened to be an integral portion of the Old West. However, despite the term "territory" being in the title, it was not treated as a legal territory, meaning they had no rights to protect their new lands. Instead, settlers of the area could outline a new territory they wished to establish (for instance, Kansas Territory), and get it legally defined as a new territory of the United States, further encroaching on Native lands. ...and things got steadily worse.

800px-Indian_Country-Territory_1834.jpg

The Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854 took the remaining areas outside of present-day Oklahoma away from the Natives living there, sqaushing Indian Territory down to one portion of present-day Oklahoma, next to Oklahoma Territory.


800px-United_States_1853-12-1854.png

When the Civil War began, many Natives fought on the side of the Confederacy, which further wounded them at the end of the war. A law was passed in 1862 that allowed the U.S. government to break treaties with any Indian tribes that had fought with the Confederacy. The U.S. government took this opportunity to stop following the concept of Indian Removal, instead moving on to Assimilation. While this policy of Assimilation paved the way for land allotments, it also shrunk the area of Indian Territory. Adding insult to injury, more tribes were moved into Indian Territory from the plains.

In 1905, the Native population of Indian Territory tried to be legally entered into the union as the state of Sequoyah. When this failed, Oklahoma was instead admitted as one state, in entirety, in 1907. Indian Territory was no more.

Thus, if it could have happened to American Indians, seriously...who's to say that the same things cannot happen to other groups in the future with states that secede?​

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Chris81

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Easy G (G²);61950528 said:
Even if iTexas holds it own, for other countries wishing to jump in and get their share, I can easily see that we'd be back at where we were during the Civil War.

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It is good to know that Iowa will be joining Canada at the end of the next American Civil War. Culturally I think Midwesterners could get along just fine with the Canadians.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The only reason a state would want to succeed is if the union of states is being tyrannical. Same goes for counties or towns and if a state or a country is being tyrannical I say go for it it forces the states not to have as much power. Of course if a state succeeded and rewrote it's owns constitution they could stop succession there, but with in the law of the US state succession at least seems legit
I think what often needs to be considered with secession is that often things are done in the name of "opposing tyranny" when the truth of the matter is that folks don't like how their own respective views may not get into power - and I say that in light of how it seems the main ones championing secession are those who wanted a Republican cannidate/government (or at least one for the conservative ideals some feel are what all should hold to) to win out. Had they won, they would be content - and yet due to not being in power, it seems to be percieved as if "the nation is going downhill" ...and thus, it seems to be a lot of drama being brought up.

IMHO, it's sad to see the mentality behind secession and the damage it leads to, considering that NOT ALL in the states asking for it ever wanted it and those people are forced to go down with others trying to make everyone in their areas like them.....and there is the issue of pettiness when it comes to seperating and yet still relying on the U.S on many levels. Unless the secessionist States form their own currency union, they would be subject to the forces of the U.S. fiscal and monetary policies -- they would not be independent actors. MS and AL would be similar to Greece. Also, when a US Citizen willingly gives up their passport to become a citizen of another country, they lose any claim to prior "entitlements" like Social Security or Medicare/Medicaid due to them...and thus, asking for the states to secede for the sake of one group impacts all in those states not wanting secession since it would make all of the citizens and the States lose their "entitlements" upon successfully seceding.

The right for states to secede like Texas claims is foolish since it NEVER had that right to begin with....and that's why it didn't successfully secede in the Civil War. The accession provision to permit its break up into five states, which is probably unenforceable against the United States, meaning Congressional consent would be required. However, even if it were at first enforceable, it is so explicitly tied to slavery and the Missouri Compromise that it was more than likely rendered moot by the Civil War and Reconstruction. However, Texas does have a deeper state maritime boundary than other states. If you could persuade Texas to secede, it would enjoy a 12 mile boundary and a 200 mile economic zone....and within a generation or so it would be absorbed into Mexico which would probably do Mexico some good.

Ultimately, if you're gonna become seperate, then by all means you choose to become seperate on your own - revoke your U.S citizenship and choose not to utilize anything in the U.S, from military resources to aid to markets and other things, rather than trying to get many to go with you - but don't try to make decisions that impact others on a large scale. And don't try to seperate once you don't have your way and yet talk of being unifiied/people needing to "work together" when your cannidate gets in office. For that is hypocritical......

Had they gotten their cannidate into office and others talked on how it wasn't right, they would have spoken on people needing to work with the government and deal with things as they are..

But the moment they don't get their way and realize that the status quo they were used to was NEVER what all others preferred/were going through, it is exaggerated into a matter of "The U.S is done for!!!!!"...and that's hysteria. Moreover, language makes a BIG deal in things since anyone can use the language of "Don't I have the RIGHT to seperate from the U.S rather than be enslaved to it for life?!!" and not be caught in understanding that the freedom to secede isn't the same as being justified in doing so.

History showed that the Confederacy was wrong in trying to secede over the issue of slavery - with other slaves seeking to flee from them to states up north and the southern states wanting to expand it/protect their "way of life" based on slavery......and though they could've talked all day long on the right to secede, they were ignoring the elephant in the room with their justifying of slavery as something to defend.

The same is present with the people wanting to seperate from the U.S over issues that are not justified when it comes to being frustrated at minorities being dominant in representation/wanting things they don't want....and then making up outright lies against people who were more so represented in this election, be it in claiming "They just all want to get something!!" or "They just want socialism" (despite the fact that people do study/understand economic realities and facts ) or claiming that government has gotten to "big" for them (even when they didn't have a problem with BIG Business influencing government and supported it being big on many differing issues they were for)......and the people in states secedding all seem universally from conservative camps - with other conservatives saying that their actions aren't really the best reflection of conservatism or what it means to be a U.S patriot knowing how to stand together/support the nation in hard times.

Some of the desires for secessionism are very much racially based - not surprising seeing the history of the land/how it was developed at the expense of others ( more discussed in #71 #88 #93 #96 and #100 ) - and for other minorities, the message is loud and clear if seeing the issue from a black perspective.


For a good article/review on the issue, one can go here to the following:

 
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Gxg (G²)

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There were many people during the American revolution who wanted to stick with England, what if we didn't' succeed from England based on that principal?

Democracy isn't as free as people think it is, it is the mob rules mentality which is why we have a constitutional republic which protect the rights of the people and not a democracy.

In my opinion secession is a last stage resort.

Ideally Stage 1 should be States rights so that states can determine what ideology their citizens want to live by. Something more conservative, something more liberal, something more green, something more libertarian, and the federal gov should be a lot smaller. State rights would allow an outlet for people who have specific convictions. Over time people with similar values would move to like-minded states and it would all even out. If a state was trying to trample on the rights of another (example slavery) then would be a legitimate reason for the Fed to step in

Stage II, succession, I think only really happens if you don't allow stage 1, states rights. If you don't allow stage II you are likely to be forced at some-point with stage III... civil unrest and civil war. God forbid we ever get there, I pray that does not happen. This nation is so divided, so angry at each other, so unwilling to compromise or work together I am afraid it is possible down the road.

So true what you noted here and many thanks for pointing it out. There are stages that need to be considered and sometimes people jump to things that were meant to be a last resort rather than the immediate option out of context.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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States like Croatia seceded (legally, if I recall correctly). But this started a seccessionist movement within Croatia, with Serb-majority regions seeking to break away and rejoin Yugoslavia or some Greater Serb state.
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Some have said that governments that seek to break away from others are similar to what occurs ultimately in communalism.

There was an excellent article on the issue - as seen here:


As said there, for a brief excerpt:

Sure, splitting the country apart feels unnatural - a crime against manifest destiny, at the very least. Americans have become so accustomed to their hard divisions - conservative-liberal, black-white, Roe-Wade, red-blue, Tea Party-sane - that the chasm separating us feels almost ordained, an organic and even integral part of the national tradition. But just because spiritual, political, racial and commercial divides have always been with us doesn't mean they must continue to define us.

So let's back away from the secession ledge for a moment, see if we can't find a compromise. Maybe the solution for dissatisfied Texans and other wannabe secessionist states that can't tolerate the oppressive yoke of the federal government is to grant them some measure of quasi-autonomy. There's plenty of international precedent. Maybe deal with Texas the way that the Philippines deals with its restive state in the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, or the way China manages economically independent Hong Kong as a Special Administrative Region, even issuing its citizens their own passports. Hell, Scotland already has a semiautonomous parliament and in 2014 it's going to vote on an independence referendum that could abolish its 300-year tie to the UK. Turn Texas into Puerto Rico or Guam; give them some form of political and social expression in exchange for diminished power in federal government
What was said was by Chuck Thompson, who authored the work entitled Better Off Without 'Em: A Northern Manifesto for Southern Secession






 
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Gxg (G²)

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It's an interesting issue. From my understanding, only states have the right to secede (if the legal framework is there), not communities or townships within those states. That said, Kosovo has seceded from Serbia despite the fact that it is not a state, but a province. Do Serb-majority areas in the north of Kosovo have the right to secede and rejoin Serbia? Does Kosovo even have the right to secede to begin with, given that it is a province, not a state in a federal Serbia?

Relating these questions back to the current thread, what are the limits on secession? Do those who support secession for states similarly support secession for regions within states? Where does the right to secede end? At the level of the state, the town, the neighbourhood, or even the individual household?
On what you noted, if the towns are meant to be represented by the government and the ways the towns wish to live no longer is represented in government, does that mean the town needs to rebel against the government - or should the government rebel against the wishes of the town/community?

Seeing how many communities within the U.S - be it with the American Indians throughout history or many black communities (especially those who were systematically terrorized by the government and at one point made RADICAL calls for seperation/black nationalism within the U.S) - there are many reasons why others did not trust any form of government...be it the larger federal government or, for that matter, government on the state level. So long, of course, as they were not truly represented and felt ousted. Whether that be with Native americans ( 74 ), the Chinese/Asian Americans ( #81 ) or Blacks ( #19 ) or Hispanics ( ) who were all exploited seriously/harmed (and many of which are still harmed today).

Relating things back to the OP, one cannot simply focus on secessionism from the perspective of the State level since the concept goes far deeper when studying the history of the U.S and communities within states/what they chose to do.

Ultimately, it seems to come down to a battle between whether you have anarchy or not - anarcho capitalism or anarcho communism or something else within the world of anarchy. And as it stands, there are differing levels of anarchy that others have been willing to accept when not feeling that either the State or Federal government can truly represent what's best for the block. And for others, it'll always be a matter of HOME TOWN Security as opposed to Homeland security.

For others, when states succedd, the possible ideas for how to handle themselves are expressed in the form of local townships working with one another rather than a large state doing the same thing that other complained that the FEDS did in running their lives in ways they didn't like. One way of seeing it is communalism. In Africa, interestingly enough, the many cultures within it are very much for communalism and gravitate toward it/anything that seems similar to it since their culture was focused on living for the community/village ( more here and here / here).

Precolonial African societies were based on communalism. Communalism refers to strong allegiance limited to one’s own ethnic group, commonly based on sharing history and culture, for instance. It is characterized by collective cooperation and ownership by members of a community.

Communalism is anything using communes as a basis of society. Communalism in that sense IS communism when it comes to having similar. Communism is based upon everyone receiving their fair share, and communalism is based upon a desire to give freely. When you have your ultimate communism society, people would likely have a seperation into local participatory communities, communes, and these communes would be federated together. Communes hardly have to be isolated, as your neighbor might be part of a different commune than you are and you don't dissasociate with him. He's simply not a general part of your own little direct democracy. There've been pitfalls to how things operate with communalism, such as what happens when people are so loyal to their own individual group/the views of its superiority that it cannot work with others---and this has happened often in Africa. Also in places throughout Asia when there's no sense of national identity, like in Singapore...
....And Nepal as well.

Because of the eternal battle of having a society that fights over the question of "WHO'S in CHARGE??!!", you'll never have a perfect system.
 
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LionofJudahDK

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to hear Americans speak of those wanting to seceede from the US being "traitors", while getting their panties in a bunch when it's pointed out that the US itself came into existence as a secession from Britain, and that the British called the rebels "traitors". :D
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I'd like to know what that professor studies. Also what strain of pot he smokes.
Don't know if the man smokes pot - but I do know he is a Russian academic by the name of Igor Panarin and his work appeared in Wall Street Journal on December 29, 2008 (as seen here ). As said there:

He based the forecast on classified data supplied to him by FAPSI - the Russian equivalent of the U.S. National Security Agency he says. He predicts that economic, financial and demographic trends will provoke a political and social crisis in the U.S. When the going gets tough, he says, wealthier states will withhold funds from the federal government and effectively secede from the union. Social unrest up to and including a civil war will follow. The U.S.will then split along ethnic lines, and foreign powers will move in. California will form the nucleus of what he calls "The Californian Republic," and will be part of China or under Chinese influence. Texas will be the heart of"The Texas Republic," a cluster of states that will go to Mexico or fall under Mexican influence. Washington, D.C., and New York will be part of an"Atlantic America" that may join the European Union. Canada will grab a group of Northern states Prof. Panarin calls "The Central North American Republic." Hawaii, he suggests, will be a protectorate of Japan or China, and Alaska will be subsumed into Russia."
For more:


Again, Russian political science Professor Igor Panarin predicted that the US would suffer an economic collapse which would cause a civil war. While Professor Panarin believed the collapse would take place as of 2010, it’s not the first prediction. Prof. Andrew Hacker as early as 1968 predicted that a collapse of America would occur due to the decay of American culture and glorification of the individual self, decaying the community. Many have scoffed at these dire predictions, although after the results were decided by the media, petitions began in as many as twenty states to request peaceful secession from the union. It should be noted that these are primarily from residents of those states, but it speaks to the level of unease, concern, and protest of the federal government and the future administration. Essentially, this came as close to a vote of no confidence of the government that was elected.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I'm not sure that the adult political equivalent of holding your breath and throwing a tantrum is really the appropriate thing to do when you lose an election.

I agree....although it is interesting to see how much focus has gone to looking at others signing petitions for secession from the U.S - and yet not saying anything or paying attention to the issue of other places wanting to join in. Puerto Rico being the main one which voted for statehood and can shift A LOT of things in many ways.

 
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DrkSdBls

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to hear Americans speak of those wanting to seceede from the US being "traitors", while getting their panties in a bunch when it's pointed out that the US itself came into existence as a secession from Britain, and that the British called the rebels "traitors". :D

Why would it be Funny when that's exactly what even our Founder Fathers called themselves. They never caimed to be otherwise.

The Question though is, what was it that our Founding Fathers were "Betraying" that is analogous to the Whiners and Malcontents of today?

To those who cry about not getting their way comparing themselves to our Founding Fathers, who sought break away from a Oppressive and Unjust ruler, Now That is what I find Funny.
 
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