Should Hamas Surrender?

[mark46]

They were not called Palestinians. That area was part of the Ottoman empire until after WWI. There was no Palestine, nor Palestinians.

Israel's failure with these people was to assume they would act like civilized people. Have you done any reading or seen the documentaries I linked in a different thread on the subject? The history is VERY clear.

The history for what time period is clear?

 

[mark46]

They were not called Palestinians. That area was part of the Ottoman empire until after WWI. There was no Palestine, nor Palestinians.

Israel's failure with these people was to assume they would act like civilized people. Have you done any reading or seen the documentaries I linked in a different thread on the subject? The history is VERY clear.

This is a solid treatment of the area in the times under the Ottoman Empire

1913: Seeds of Conflict

Explore an overlooked moment in pre-WWI Palestine when people's identities overlapped.

www.pbs.org

 

[Reasonably Sane]

and there was no Israel and no Israelis

Actually, there was an Israel and Jews. A peculiar people. But Israel had ben removed from the land for a very long time. There was a country called Israel. And in 1948 there was again. An actual country, government and all. The area they populated between WWI and the 50's had not local government and was basically a few thousand people living in tents. They may have called themselves, for a short period, Palestinians, but they were Arabs and there was no such thing as Palestine.

Again, this covers it nicely and clearly:

 

[Reasonably Sane]

The history for what time period is clear?

Well, the last few hundred years at least. Watch the video I just linked. There are lots of them out there. And articles. It's hard to dispute this stuff, though some try.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

This is a solid treatment of the area in the times under the Ottoman Empire

1913: Seeds of Conflict

Explore an overlooked moment in pre-WWI Palestine when people's identities overlapped.

www.pbs.org

Nothing is coming up at that link.

 

[Valletta]

Actually, there was an Israel and Jews. A peculiar people. But Israel had ben removed from the land for a very long time. There was a country called Israel. And in 1948 there was again. An actual country, government and all. The area they populated between WWI and the 50's had not local government and was basically a few thousand people living in tents. They may have called themselves, for a short period, Palestinians, but they were Arabs and there was no such thing as Palestine.

Again, this covers it nicely and clearly:

The "Palestinian" name came from "Philistene" which was the name of the land during the late Roman Empire when the Jews were slaves. That is, it is their slave name. Even their name was co-opted by Arafat and his followers.
Wikipedia:
Palestinian Jews or Jewish Palestinians were the Jewish inhabitants of the Palestine region (known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, lit. 'Land of Israel') prior to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.

The common term used to refer to the Jewish communities of Ottoman Syria during the 19th century[1] and British Palestine prior to the 1948 establishment of the State of Israel[1] is Yishuv (lit. 'settlement'). A distinction is drawn between the "New Yishuv", which was largely composed of and descended from Jewish immigrants who arrived in the Levant during the First Aliyah (1881–1903), and the "Old Yishuv", which was the pre-existing Jewish community of Palestine prior to the consolidation of Zionism and the First Aliyah.

In addition to applying to Jews who lived in Palestine during the British Mandate era, the term Palestinian Jews has been applied to the Jewish residents of Southern Syria, corresponding to the southern part of the Syria region under the Ottoman Empire; there are also historical scholarly instances in which Jews residing in the Palaestina Prima and Palaestina Secunda provinces (4th to 7th centuries CE) of the Byzantine Empire in Late Antiquity were referred to as Palestinian Jews.[citation needed]

Palestinian Jews - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[LovesOurLord]

How Israel Inadvertently Created Hamas | Vantage with Palki Sharma​

 

[LovesOurLord]

Why are hamas fighting ? For freedom? Not according to hamas statements.
For someone else's freedom ? Not according to hamas statements.

From what I've seen from Hamas, it's a reaction to Israelis being allowed to storm the Dome of the Rock repeatedly and take it over for Sukkot and other Jewish holidays. Apparently the Muslims consider it desecration. The Sukkot procession preceded the Hamas attack by days, if not hours. There have also been a lot of attacks and pogroms in the West Bank of settlers against Palestinians there as of recent. Netanyahu is accused of being lax behind the violent right-wingers behind it. On a side note, harassment of Christians has reported increased also.

It's actually a really bad reason for a war. Completely avoidable and obvious attitude adjustments on both sides are needed for peace, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Robban]

and there was no Israel and no Israelis

Genesis 32:27-28

(just in case you are serious)

 

[mark46]

Genesis 32:27-28

(just in case you are serious)

OK, let's give all the land back to those who owned it 2000 years ago.

In the year 1900, there was no Israel, there were in Israelis. Period., full stop. Should we consider all the people of 2000 or 4000 years ago as being part of today's reality along with their claims to land. Of course not. Besides. Zionists were those looking for a homeland. Their were not ytying to claim the last of their forefathers.

 

[mark46]

If. Have we sent troops?

If you were part of Hamas, would you surrender?

Yes, the US has sent 2-4 troops, as well as two aircraft carriers with more help coming.

 

[mark46]

Genesis 32:27-28

(just in case you are serious)

The Israel of which you speak includes Israel, Jordan. Lebanon and much of Syria. Zealots among the Jews and Palestinians want the ancient land (called Palestine by the Romans and British) to be one land under their control. One groups wants all Arabs out of ancient Israel. Palestinians want all Jews out.

When I say that there was no land of Israel in 1900, I believe that is accurate statement, also no land of Palestine. I suppose that we can discuss Palestine/(Israel) as defined in 1917 and enforced by the British mandate. Or, we might discuss Israel as define by the UN in 1947.
In any case the ancient land of the Jewish people was called Israel, also Judah and Samaria, and the Palestine after 1917.

The very obvious solution to the POLITICAL situation is to restore the 1967 boundaries. Of course Jordan and Egypt don't want the teritories back, with all its problems.

 

[Valletta]

The Israel of which you speak includes Israel, Jordan. Lebanon and much of Syria. Zealots among the Jews and Palestinians want the ancient land (called Palestine by the Romans and British) to be one land under their control. One groups wants all Arabs out of ancient Israel. Palestinians want all Jews out.

When I say that there was no land of Israel in 1900, I believe that is accurate statement, also no land of Palestine. I suppose that we can discuss Palestine/(Israel) as defined in 1917 and enforced by the British mandate. Or, we might discuss Israel as define by the UN in 1947.
In any case the ancient land of the Jewish people was called Israel, also Judah and Samaria, and the Palestine after 1917.

The very obvious solution to the POLITICAL situation is to restore the 1967 boundaries. Of course Jordan and Egypt don't want the teritories back, with all its problems.

I think it is going way beyond that. Iran sponsored Hamas and Iran is behind the attacks on Americans. After Hamas the nuclear capability of Iran needs to be removed.

 

[Pommer]

After Hamas the nuclear capability of Iran needs to be removed.

Gee, who’s going to [be insane enough to] try that?

 

[Valletta]

Gee, who’s going to [be insane enough to] try that?

Iran will use a nuclear weapon against Israel as soon as they have one ready, and they are getting close. It would be insane not to stop it. Their actions require it be done.

 

[Pommer]

Iran will use a nuclear weapon against Israel as soon as they have one ready, and they are getting close. It would be insane not to stop it. Their actions require it be done.

Preemptive war?
Wasn’t that attempted in 2003?

 

[All Becomes New]

Hamas is evil. Israel is frustrated because all their attempts at peace have been spit at.

 

[Robban]

OK, let's give all the land back to those who owned it 2000 years ago.

In the year 1900, there was no Israel, there were in Israelis. Period., full stop. Should we consider all the people of 2000 or 4000 years ago as being part of today's reality along with their claims to land. Of course not. Besides. Zionists were those looking for a homeland. Their were not ytying to claim the last of their forefathers.

I do not engage in politics whatsoever, though this thread is in the
politics forum.

Wherever, even the farthest corner of the world there is a Jew there is Israel.

When the Messiah appears he will gather them in and he will know exactly where they belong.

Every Jews background is that he or she is a child of Abraham,
Isaac, Jacob and of Sarah, Rivkah, Rachel and Leah.

You can wage an endless war or you can transscend in peace.

 

[LovesOurLord]

So what is the alternative, knowing Iran will start a nuclear war as soon as they can?

I don't quite understand this as the only middle eastern country with nukes is Israel.

 

[Lukaris]

A poster elsewhere in CF downloaded this interview with the estranged son of the leader of Hamas.