Should Hamas Surrender?

[Reasonably Sane]

I think its got to a point where no one is going to surrender. Isreal has had enough and the DNA of terror groups like Hamas can never change from wanting to get rid of Isreal.

I'm thinking this is where things have evolved and theres no turning back. No more treaties that keep getting broken. Its either end Hamas or end Isreal.

This same sentiment seems to be reflected all over the place and the issue is becoming a world issue where Jews are being attacked and persecuted. Its rather unbelievable that we are facing something similar to the Nazis all over again. This is so far from a world at peace.

My concern is that it may not just stop with either Hamas or Isreal but expand and become a international conflict. Isreal says that getting rid of Hamas is not only good for them but the world in gaining peace and I tend to agree it seems to have got to this point in time.

Japan and Germany both surrendered unconditionally. It just took a certain attitude from the victors to seal the deal.

 

[mark46]

Japan and Germany both surrendered unconditionally. It just took a certain attitude from the victors to seal the deal.

bombing Dresden and all German cities sealed the deal
2 nukes sealed the deal

Are you suggesting this "attitude" for Israel or for Iran and its terrorists?

 

[Reasonably Sane]

bombing Dresden and all German cities sealed the deal
2 nukes sealed the deal

Are you suggesting this "attitude" for Israel or for Iran and its terrorists?

For Israel. BTW, I was tempted to include Tokyo. A LOT more damage and death resulted there than in the two nuke attacks. What made the nukes "special" was that it just took one bomb in each place. In war, you can't hide behind civilians and hope to win, unless your enemy is weak. My personal perspective: There are no civilians in war.

 

[stevevw]

Agree. No one will surrender. Some thoughts in moving forward

THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION
Hamas has refused to supply the hospitals and other citizen centers in need. Hamas has lots of fuel stores. Hamas continues to interfere with humanitarian efforts. Jordan showed that there could be humanitarian drops if Hamas allowed. Israel has tried to provide fuel, incubators and other supplies to the large remaining hospital. Hamas does not allow it. Hamas builds its command centers under and in hospitals and schools, and then gets civilians to camp out in those same institutions. Then, of course, they show pictures of the dead.

THE ALLIES
The Sunni Arab governments are allies of Israel. They very much want the Shia terrorist group Hamas destroyed. They also want the Shia groups in Lebanon (Hezbollah), Syria and Iraq contained. Iran is the enemy for them, not Israel. Their problem is with the Arab street. The leaders fear revolutions if they cannot contain Israel's excesses. The US has less of an issue, but still Biden must go through silly hoops, while there are pro-Hamas rallies.

ISRAEL
Shame on Israel for their intelligence failures. And, yes, they needed less undirected bombing. Also, they should have been much, much more careful in any bombing outside Gaza City. This was part of their outrage and revenge.

However, Israel has been very open in their plans to surround Gaza City, and then to go in and destroy the tunnels and other Hamas infrastructure, in addition to killing the Hamas leadership. Israel has been encouraging movement out of the North for a month. It has been encouraging humanitarian aid for a month. Yes, Israel refuses to allow fuel, fuel which Hamas hoards and will not share with its hospitals and people.

THE KEY to the future is the West Bank. Israel must change governments, remove all settlements from the West Bank, withdraw from the West Bank, and continue to partner with the government regarding security AS PARTNERS. Israel should relinquish all control and support their government. The West Bank government is unpopular because they have given much, and then the Israeli government has been very harsh with their settlement "policy" being the worst of their policies. [In effect, they did exactly this in Gaza, years ago]

There should be a path to statehood. Arab countries, the US and Israel should recognize the state of Palestine with the geography of the West Bank. This might need a timeline (as is usually the case), especially with regard to Israel withdrawal and internal security. The PLO recognizes Israel. Israel should recognize Palestine. It is really as simple as that. Of course, there will be the open isssues of Jerusalem and Gaza. That may be for another decade. For now, the state of Palestine should be a reality.

GAZA AFTER THE WAR
No one knows. Obviously, billions of humanitarian aid can come in. The issues will be security, governance, and ultimately, self-rule, The Arab states will need to step up if Israel is to have no part in security within Gaza. Moving toward self-rule could take a decade, even if everyone was on board, helping.

I'm noticing increasing support for Isreal. So it looks like people are more or less giving Isreal the OK to continue to get rid of Hamas in the Gaza strip.

I think the Isreali forces will continue to methodically go through Gaza finding and destroying Hamas strongholds. As this is now a ground offensive they will systematically take more territory until Hamas is completely taken out and as this happens more aid and support for Palestinians will come. This may take time finding all the tunnels.

I am hearing the Isrealis are allowing some fuel in for humanitarian support so they must be getting some control. But at this stage it looks like theres an increasing support for the Isrealis to completely take Gaza to get rid of Hamas.

This tells me that people are thinking the same that its got to a point where these terror groups need to be taken out and the time for negociation has come to an end.

I also heard that Hamas has offered to free 50 women and children hostages in exchange for a 5 day ceasefire. I am rather suspicious of this but it may show that the Isreali offensive is starting to have an effect on Hamas will to keep persisting with terror.

 

[stevevw]

Japan and Germany both surrendered unconditionally. It just took a certain attitude from the victors to seal the deal.

Unfortunately a big part of that at least for Japan was dropping two neuclear bombs on them.

I think the Gaza situation is different in that the sides are neighbours so they have to for practical reasons not only defeat the enermy but ensure future control of the area so that insurgence doesn't happen again.

If Hamas surrended the Isrealis would want to be sure they actually did and the way Hamas has acted in the past I don't blame them for not trusting what Hamas say. So I think for the own peace of mine they will want to ensure Hamas are in no way active or able to be in a position to attack throughout any area currently occupied outside Isreali control such as Gaza and the West Bank.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

I'm noticing increasing support for Isreal. So it looks like people are more or less giving Isreal the OK to continue to get rid of Hamas in the Gaza strip.

I think the Isreali forces will continue to methodically go through Gaza finding and destroying Hamas strongholds. As this is now a ground offensive they will systematically take more territory until Hamas is completely taken out and as this happens more aid and support for Palestinians will come. This may take time finding all the tunnels.

I am hearing the Isrealis are allowing some fuel in for humanitarian support so they must be getting some control. But at this stage it looks like theres an increasing support for the Isrealis to completely take Gaza to get rid of Hamas.

This tells me that people are thinking the same that its got to a point where these terror groups need to be taken out and the time for negociation has come to an end.

I also heard that Hamas has offered to free 50 women and children hostages in exchange for a 5 day ceasefire. I am rather suspicious of this but it may show that the Isreali offensive is starting to have an effect on Hamas will to keep persisting with terror.

I think the "reaction" phase of this is waning and more and more reliable information is forthcoming, causing more and more people to "respond" to the information they are getting - with the result being a lot of changed opinions. I think it's turning around.

As the old saying goes, "A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes"

Well, the truth got its shoes on and has entered the race. In the end I expect it to win.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Unfortunately a big part of that at least for Japan was dropping two neuclear bombs on them.

I think the Gaza situation is different in that the sides are neighbours so they have to for practical reasons not only defeat the enermy but ensure future control of the area so that insurgence doesn't happen again.

If Hamas surrended the Isrealis would want to be sure they actually did and the way Hamas has acted in the past I don't blame them for not trusting what Hamas say. So I think for the own peace of mine they will want to ensure Hamas are in no way active or able to be in a position to attack throughout any area currently occupied outside Isreali control such as Gaza and the West Bank.

Personally, I think the only solution is for Israel to push EVERYONE out, some into Egypt and some into Israel, from where they can continue on to their remaining homeland, Jordan. Then Israel can annex Gaza as the US did to indian land, populate it, and let all those displaced to seek to immigrate and each can attempt to do so on their own personal merit.

They need Iseali control over all of the area as a PART of Israel.

Frankly, the same goes for the west bank, but through a different methodology. Or they can just wait until they lob rockets over and do the same thing.

 

[mark46]

I'm noticing increasing support for Isreal. So it looks like people are more or less giving Isreal the OK to continue to get rid of Hamas in the Gaza strip.

I think the Isreali forces will continue to methodically go through Gaza finding and destroying Hamas strongholds. As this is now a ground offensive they will systematically take more territory until Hamas is completely taken out and as this happens more aid and support for Palestinians will come. This may take time finding all the tunnels.

I am hearing the Isrealis are allowing some fuel in for humanitarian support so they must be getting some control. But at this stage it looks like theres an increasing support for the Isrealis to completely take Gaza to get rid of Hamas.

This tells me that people are thinking the same that its got to a point where these terror groups need to be taken out and the time for negociation has come to an end.

I also heard that Hamas has offered to free 50 women and children hostages in exchange for a 5 day ceasefire. I am rather suspicious of this but it may show that the Isreali offensive is starting to have an effect on Hamas will to keep persisting with terror.

I have heard that Hamas will also require the release of women held in Israeli jails.

 

[mark46]

Personally, I think the only solution is for Israel to push EVERYONE out, some into Egypt and some into Israel, from where they can continue on to their remaining homeland, Jordan. Then Israel can annex Gaza as the US did to indian land, populate it, and let all those displaced to seek to immigrate and each can attempt to do so on their own personal merit.

They need Iseali control over all of the area as a PART of Israel.

Frankly, the same goes for the west bank, but through a different methodology. Or they can just wait until they lob rockets over and do the same thing.

Your position is one of the reasons that we are where we. Another position is that the West Bank is Palestine and Israel must withdraw as they did from Gaza in the past.

 

[Desk trauma]

Another position is that the West Bank is Palestine and Israel must withdraw as they did from Gaza in the past.

After how the withdrawal from Gaza worked out there is no reason to think that will happen.

 

[mark46]

The problem in the West Bank is NOT the Palestinians and the Palestinian government. The problem is Israeli policies and the violence of the settlers.

Withdrawal from Gaza failed because the Israeli government continued to SUPPORT Hamas with funds sent through Qatar. Supporting Hamas was seen as a way to prevent Palestinian self-rule by weakening Arafat and the PLO (now the Palestinian Authority under Abbas).

The West Bank will indeed require interim, continuing security arrangements. Israel does that now. The issue is the removal of settlements and the removal of much of the Israeli presence. West Bank violence is primarily caused by Israeli settlers (and their government in Israel) not by Palesinians.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Your position is one of the reasons that we are where we. Another position is that the West Bank is Palestine and Israel must withdraw as they did from Gaza in the past.

Opinions vary. My personal opinion is that we are where we are because they didn't do it sooner. I think Israel is finally done appeasing these Islamists.

In all seriousness, though the Arab nations have had a lot of wars against the tiny nation, always refusing to take in "refugees" of their own, this time I think it's different. That is why the risk of WWIII is more serious this time. No more appeasement. We see where that has gotten them.

 

[stevevw]

I think the "reaction" phase of this is waning and more and more reliable information is forthcoming, causing more and more people to "respond" to the information they are getting - with the result being a lot of changed opinions. I think it's turning around.

As the old saying goes, "A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes"

Well, the truth got its shoes on and has entered the race. In the end I expect it to win.

I like that quote, its very true. But lets hope that now the truth is coming out that we continue to follow the truth and not get carried away with it.

 

[stevevw]

I have heard that Hamas will also require the release of women held in Israeli jails.

OK, well if it can move things forward then maybe thats the way to go. But the Isrealis are skeptical as Hamas has used this ploy before to delay attacks on them to enable them to reload or escape. We have to remember that the end rsult should be Hamas is defeated, is no longer in a position of control over anything or anyone. That may require either complete surrender by Hamas or the Isrealis continue to move forward to taking them out if they don't cooperate or try something.

 

[benadamm]

So, I may be very ignorant to ask this.

Is the purpose, of the targeting of civilians, to shift the response from military to diplomatic as soon as possible?
Thereby gaining legitimacy as a governing body?

 

[stevevw]

So, I may be very ignorant to ask this.

Is the purpose, of the targeting of civilians, to shift the response from military to diplomatic as soon as possible?
Thereby gaining legitimacy as a governing body?

What do you mean targeting civilians.

 

[benadamm]

What do you mean targeting civilians.

Hamas targeted civilians.

 

[stevevw]

Hamas targeted civilians.

I don't think Hamas have any purpose in targeting civilians apart from trying to stir up trouble and attack Isreal whichever way they can.

 

[mark46]

Opinions vary. My personal opinion is that we are where we are because they didn't do it sooner. I think Israel is finally done appeasing these Islamists.

In all seriousness, though the Arab nations have had a lot of wars against the tiny nation, always refusing to take in "refugees" of their own, this time I think it's different. That is why the risk of WWIII is more serious this time. No more appeasement. We see where that has gotten them.

So, Netenyahu is willing to make allies with the Sunni Arab nations, but you are not. To you, they are all Arabs,

I mean no disrespect to you personally, but it is this view that has gotten us where we are. Had previous Israeli governments moved toward an evententual 2-state solution, there would be a different situation now.

I will list two OBVIOUS and reprehensible ISraeli policies. There are many more, especially on the West Bank.

WEST BANK
1) Israel has continued to support the settlers in West Bank and has increased the number of settlers and settlements. The government has condoned many, many crimes by settlers against West Bank Palestinians who they consider enemies of Israel. Israel sould have closed all settlements and moved out of the West Bank, except for the security force that works with the Palestinian Authority.

The Palestinian Authority agreed to recognize Israel. They BELIEVED Israel and their allies. They believed that this would the first fo many steps toward a Palestinian state. Instead, the Israeli government has greatly undermined the PA, with the expected results of a weak, unpopular government.

The West Bank should be called Palestine, not a state yet, but the name would be a major state. In addition, Israel should support the Palestinian government with policies and economic partnerships (as it is doing with several of the Arab states).

GAZA
2. What can I say,? The Israeli goernment wanted to avoid a 2-state solution. The PLO (now the Palestinian Authority) could have moved toward a 2-state solution as they have moved in the West Bank. So they had to weaken the Palestinian Authority. They did so ont he West Bank. They did the same in Gaza, directly and through FINANCIAL SUPPORT OF HAMAS. Yup, the Israeli government sent money, through Qatar, to Hamas. More importantly, the government acted in ways that caused Hamas to strengthen at the expense of the PA.

The result should have been expected. When the Israeli government was hopelessly split and showed weakness, SHIA Hamas acted. Also, Hamas need to act soon, before Israel made allies of all the Sunni states, in effect taking sides in favor of Saudi Arabia and against Iran.

NOW, the only hope for Gaza and to prevent an extended war is for the Sunni Arabs to take over Gaza's security within and without. And there would need to be a Palestinian civil government. The economic aid needed may total 1 trillion dollars. But, that is the only solution. Of course, this would eventually result in a recognition of the country of Palestine, total failure for the settlers and their government lackeys like Netanyahu.

And by the way, all current members of HAMAS can NOT be excluded from government. US and our allies made that mistake in Iraq. Hamas cannot be pushed underground to for a new SHIA terrorist group, with the support of Iran. Of course, the HAMAS military leadership would be excluded, and probably turned over to the Israelis.