Should Hamas Surrender?

[mark46]

If you are asking whether any of their allies are what you might accept to be Christian countries, the answer is that they are not. They are pagan. BTW, do you consider the UK a pagan country? Canada? Australia?

 

[mark46]

Okay then, are they godless ? Or pagan? (Like/with/ hamas)

Of the allies and opponents of Hamas in the region, none are Christian. Israel is Jewish, the rest are Muslim.

 

[mark46]

Paganism​

Paganism is a term first used in the fourth century by early Christians for people in the Roman Empire who practiced polytheism, or ethnic religions other than Judaism. Wikipedia

what is your point?

 

[mark46]

Do the countries you mentioned in a post fit that description ?

No, they are monotheistic followers of Islam.

 

[mark46]

I totally did not know that about U.K., Canada, or Australia !
But note that that does look like it does fit the posted description of pagan.

No, I was speaking about the ALLIES of Hamas, which are all Muslim.

The UK, Canada and Australia are majority secular, having no faith at all.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

They had and a have a choice. They made it 3 weeks ago. They want to fight. Unlike in Germany and Japan, there is a fighting force that has no interest in the leves of their citizens. In addition, they have many foreign allies.

Regarding Hamas, you are spot on. The history of the region proves it. Their mission statement proves it. And don't tell anybody, because it's a secret: The real enemy here is Islam.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

In addition, they have many foreign allies.

They are not so much allies as cheerleader's for their team against the common enemy, Israel. It is worth it to remember that they tried this nonsense in Jordan and they were summarily removed. Looks like Israel has finally reached that point.

An interesting post from powerline:

As to “occupation”: Do they not know that all Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in the hope that Hamas might become less obsessed with killing Jews? Instead, Hamas, founded in 1988, killed and maimed members of Fatah, its Palestinian rival and, soon after, began launching rockets into Israeli villages.

Despite that, Israelis have supplied Gazans with electricity, water, fuel, and construction materials (often repurposed by Hamas to make weapons). Gazans were welcomed into Israel to earn their livings – 20,000 a day prior to Oct. 7. Countless Gazans have been treated in Israeli hospitals.

And, The last time the Palis’ tried to go to Jordan (a "foreign ally") to settle they tried to kill King Hussein. The Jordanian army put them in their place, and so was born “Black September”.

 

[mark46]

They are not so much allies as cheerleader's for their team against the common enemy, Israel. It is worth it to remember that they tried this nonsense in Jordan and they were summarily removed. Looks like Israel has finally reached that point.

An interesting post from powerline:

As to “occupation”: Do they not know that all Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in the hope that Hamas might become less obsessed with killing Jews? Instead, Hamas, founded in 1988, killed and maimed members of Fatah, its Palestinian rival and, soon after, began launching rockets into Israeli villages.

Despite that, Israelis have supplied Gazans with electricity, water, fuel, and construction materials (often repurposed by Hamas to make weapons). Gazans were welcomed into Israel to earn their livings – 20,000 a day prior to Oct. 7. Countless Gazans have been treated in Israeli hospitals.

And, The last time the Palis’ tried to go to Jordan (a "foreign ally") to settle they tried to kill King Hussein. The Jordanian army put them in their place, and so was born “Black September”.

all good points

Hamas is not even Hezbollah's (Lebanon's) most significant ally in Gaza.

It is instructive, as you point out, to understand that Palestinians are welcome nowhere outside of Gaza and the West Bank. Certainly, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt want no refugees, as you think they might accept in such times of war.

Israeli Palestinian policy has been very wrong since the formation of Hamas. Israel has continued to fight against a Palestinian state, fearing such a state even more than the Arab countries where they have caused civil unrest. Israel helped Hamas a lot over the year, giving aid through Qatar. The idea was to weaken El Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. This error has had horrible consequences.

Perhaps, just perhaps, after this war (even with some foreign participation), there can come the realization that the Arab states need to guarantee peace and security in Gaza, not Israel. Israel must WITHDRAW from the West Bank, as they did from Gaza, with all settlers leaving the West Bank. Israel did it exactly backwards in the past in withdrawing from Gaza instead of the West Bank. The sticking point, of course, is the administration of Jerusalem. Clearly, the solution will require the finalization of the agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabis, obviously after there is a new government in Israel, and the beginning of the dismantling of the settlements. The mistake must be corrected. The Palestinian Authority is the answer, no matter how unpopular they are at the moment (unpopular because they are corrupt and can't stop the Israeli policies in the West Bank, including Israel allowing all sorts of crimes by the settlers.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

all good points

Hamas is not even Hezbollah's (Lebanon's) most significant ally in Gaza.

It is instructive, as you point out, to understand that Palestinians are welcome nowhere outside of Gaza and the West Bank. Certainly, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt want no refugees, as you think they might accept in such times of war.

Israeli Palestinian policy has been very wrong since the formation of Hamas. Israel has continued to fight against a Palestinian state, fearing such a state even more than the Arab countries where they have caused civil unrest. Israel helped Hamas a lot over the year, giving aid through Qatar. The idea was to weaken El Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. This error has had horrible consequences.

Perhaps, just perhaps, after this war (even with some foreign participation), there can come the realization that the Arab states need to guarantee peace and security in Gaza, not Israel. Israel must WITHDRAW from the West Bank, as they did from Gaza, with all settlers leaving the West Bank. Israel did it exactly backwards in the past in withdrawing from Gaza instead of the West Bank. The sticking point, of course, is the administration of Jerusalem. Clearly, the solution will require the finalization of the agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabis, obviously after there is a new government in Israel, and the beginning of the dismantling of the settlements. The mistake must be corrected. The Palestinian Authority is the answer, no matter how unpopular they are at the moment (unpopular because they are corrupt and can't stop the Israeli policies in the West Bank, including Israel allowing all sorts of crimes by the settlers.

My personal opinion is that Israel should simply annex both Gaza and the West Bank once and for all. All appeasement with antagonistic enemies is a fool's errand. It may be painful, just as heart surgery was painful for me and involved a few months of recovery. But I'm a lot better for it now and the problem is finally put in the past.

But that's just me.

 

[mark46]

My personal opinion is that Israel should simply annex both Gaza and the West Bank once and for all. All appeasement with antagonistic enemies is a fool's errand. It may be painful, just as heart surgery was painful for me and involved a few months of recovery. But I'm a lot better for it now and the problem is finally put in the past.

But that's just me.

Jordan was offered the West Bank. They refused. Egypt could have the Gaza. They have no interest.

No one wants to have millions of Palestinians as part of their state.

The problem would not be put in the past. Israel would have the same civil unrest as other countries have had.

In any case, Israel cannot survive as a secular state. The entire reason for its existence is as a Jewish homeland.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Jordan was offered the West Bank. They refused. Egypt could have the Gaza. They have no interest.

No one wants to have millions of Palestinians as part of their state.

The problem would not be put in the past. Israel would have the same civil unrest as other countries have had.

In any case, Israel cannot survive as a secular state. The entire reason for its existence is as a Jewish homeland.

I tend to generally agree. If they try to survive as a secular state, they will enjoy the same political fate as South Africa. And we all know how well that went for all South Africans, black or white...

 

[Pommer]

My personal opinion is that Israel should simply annex both Gaza and the West Bank once and for all. All appeasement with antagonistic enemies is a fool's errand. It may be painful, just as heart surgery was painful for me and involved a few months of recovery. But I'm a lot better for it now and the problem is finally put in the past.

But that's just me.

You do understand why the annexation of these regions (nothing for the Golan Heights?) would be fought against, tooth-and-nail, right?

 

[Reasonably Sane]

You do understand why the annexation of these regions (nothing for the Golan Heights?) would be fought against, tooth-and-nail, right?

Yes.

 

[Pommer]

Yes.

This would likely lead to a genocide of the Palestinians.

 

[Valletta]

This would likely lead to a genocide of the Palestinians.

What is going on now is an attempt to STOP the genocide by the jihadists. It is difficult because the jihadists are particularly evil and cowardly as the world has seen are willing not just to kill Israeli babies, but sacrifice innocents in Gaza. Israel is taking the best course of action given the evil they are facing. What it might lead to we do no know, there are a significant number of people in the world who support the horrific butchery that took place in Israel. As we can see from students at American universities are country is not immune from this evil.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

This would likely lead to a genocide of the Palestinians.

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. They are Arabs. Knowing Israel, they'd cart them off to a local Arab nation. Jordan, etc. Frankly, that's where most of them came from a few decades ago. Very few of them actually lived in the area when Israel started buying up property. That's one reason England gave it to them. And they were compensated. Their land was bought, not stolen.

 

[mark46]

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. They are Arabs. Knowing Israel, they'd cart them off to a local Arab nation. Jordan, etc. Frankly, that's where most of them came from a few decades ago. Very few of them actually lived in the area when Israel started buying up property. That's one reason England gave it to them. And they were compensated. Their land was bought, not stolen.

I disagree.

There are Palestinians. They were here when Zionists started buying land. They were tenant farmers for the Jews who first came near 1900. They were shepherds with no permanent villages. And yes, they were rich folks who lived outside the country (or rather outside this part of Ottoman territory. Calling them Arabs is OK, so let's try an analogy. There are no Israelis, at least not for 2000 years. There are European Jews. BTW, Israel was just of the choices for the European Jews. There were others. To be real, it is Jordan and the West Bank that is more the land of the Jews than the land of Israel.
====================
Only a series of misguided Israeli governments has prevented the Palestinian Authority from having statehood in the West Bank. Israel only needed to withdraw in the same way as they did in Gaza. They would have immediately become a state that many countries would recognize. Instead, they withdrew from Gaza, let them self-govern as they locked down the borders, and threw away the keys.

 

[Valletta]

I disagree.

There are Palestinians. They were here when Zionists started buying land. They were tenant farmers for the Jews who first came near 1900. They were shepherds with no permanent villages. And yes, they were rich folks who lived outside the country (or rather outside this part of Ottoman territory. Calling them Arabs is OK, so let's try an analogy. There are no Israelis, at least not for 2000 years. There are European Jews. BTW, Israel was just of the choices for the European Jews. There were others. To be real, it is Jordan and the West Bank that is more the land of the Jews than the land of Israel.
====================
Only a series of misguided Israeli governments has prevented the Palestinian Authority from having statehood in the West Bank. Israel only needed to withdraw in the same way as they did in Gaza. They would have immediately become a state that many countries would recognize. Instead, they withdrew from Gaza, let them self-govern as they locked down the borders, and threw away the keys.

Actually the name "Palestinian" was co-opted by Arafat and his followers. They took the name from the Jews. It is the name the Israelites used to refer to themselves, taken from when they were held in slavery, taken from the word the Jews referred to as "Philistine" back in the second century. Israel occupied the land over the three thousand years except when attacked and displaced. One of the problems with the Muslim attacks is that once they seize a land they consider it their own forever.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

I disagree.

There are Palestinians. They were here when Zionists started buying land. They were tenant farmers for the Jews who first came near 1900. They were shepherds with no permanent villages. And yes, they were rich folks who lived outside the country (or rather outside this part of Ottoman territory. Calling them Arabs is OK, so let's try an analogy. There are no Israelis, at least not for 2000 years. There are European Jews. BTW, Israel was just of the choices for the European Jews. There were others. To be real, it is Jordan and the West Bank that is more the land of the Jews than the land of Israel.
====================
Only a series of misguided Israeli governments has prevented the Palestinian Authority from having statehood in the West Bank. Israel only needed to withdraw in the same way as they did in Gaza. They would have immediately become a state that many countries would recognize. Instead, they withdrew from Gaza, let them self-govern as they locked down the borders, and threw away the keys.

They were not called Palestinians. That area was part of the Ottoman empire until after WWI. There was no Palestine, nor Palestinians.

Israel's failure with these people was to assume they would act like civilized people. Have you done any reading or seen the documentaries I linked in a different thread on the subject? The history is VERY clear.

 

[mark46]

They were not called Palestinians. That area was part of the Ottoman empire until after WWI. There was no Palestine, nor Palestinians.

Israel's failure with these people was to assume they would act like civilized people. Have you done any reading or seen the documentaries I linked in a different thread on the subject? The history is VERY clear.

and there was no Israel and no Israelis