Should Hamas Surrender?

[Pommer]

Hamas is evil. Israel is frustrated because all their attempts at peace have been spit at.

It must be nice to have a worldview that is so clearly defined into such sharp contrasts.

 

[Pommer]

So what is the alternative, knowing Iran will start a nuclear war as soon as they can?

Nobody with only one nuclear device begins a war.
Nobody begins a war with that single nuclear device.

 

[Lukaris]

Iranian people seem to be further tiring of Hamas:

Iranians Mock Regime Campaign To Recruit Fighters For Hamas War

The Iranian regime launched a multi-platform campaign to recruit fighters for the Hamas war against Israel while Iranians are branding it a propaganda stunt.

www.iranintl.com

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

It must be nice to have a worldview that is so clearly defined into such sharp contrasts.

What I said is true. Israel offered a two-state solution. It was denied with no counteroffer. Then Israel gave the Arabs Gaza and shortly after pulled all their people out of there because of the elected Hamas, who, strictly speaking, wanted to see Israel destroyed. They based this on their reading of their holy books. In fact, we could say Hamas is far more consistent in their Islam than the moderates of Islam are. They simply understand the eschatology of Islam better than the moderates do.

 

[wing2000]

I think it is going way beyond that. Iran sponsored Hamas and Iran is behind the attacks on Americans. After Hamas the nuclear capability of Iran needs to be removed.

Gee, who’s going to [be insane enough to] try that?

Maybe the op can volunteer?
[Didn't we learn anything from our Iraq adventure?]

 

[Valletta]

Maybe the op can volunteer?
[Didn't we learn anything from our Iraq adventure?]

U.S. forces have been attacked by Iranian backed terrorist organizations. The Biden administration has relaxed sanctions on Iran and provided Iran with billions which will be used to fund terrorism--including the atomic bomb. Once Iran has the atomic bomb they will use it first on Israel. Next the rest of non-Muslims. So too we don't know the number of terrorists that have crossed our southern border due to Biden border policies. Both of these situations are reality, in both the terrorists have brought the war to us. Have we learned from the Hamas attack on Israel?

 

[Valletta]

Nobody with only one nuclear device begins a war.
Nobody begins a war with that single nuclear device.

No country has ever begun a war with an atomic bomb. It seems extremely naive to believe Iran would not use their first atomic bomb as quickly as possible, especially knowing that Israel will destroy atomic bomb making facilities as soon as they find out Iran has a bomb ready.

 

[mark46]

What I said is true. Israel offered a two-state solution. It was denied with no counteroffer. Then Israel gave the Arabs Gaza and shortly after pulled all their people out of there because of the elected Hamas, who, strictly speaking, wanted to see Israel destroyed. They based this on their reading of their holy books. In fact, we could say Hamas is far more consistent in their Islam than the moderates of Islam are. They simply understand the eschatology of Islam better than the moderates do.

Israel took Gaza from Egypt in 1967 It did not give it "back" to the Arabs. Israel pulled out and allowed those there to govern. Of course, the majority in Gaza were refugees from other countries. Israel then immediately took steps to undermine El Fata and the Palestinian Authority, and then gave Hamas money through Qatar. Hamas has controlled Gaza for a while, using the countries resources to fight wars against Israel.

A much better approach would have been to give back Gaza to Egypt and allow them to allow elections (if they wished) and to provide security. Of ccourse, the West Bank should also have been returned to Jordan. After all, it was Jordanian territory since 1967. Many, many countries have pressured Israel to restore the 1967 borders. They shoud have taken these countries at their word and returned the territories.

 

[Lukaris]

The thing is the 1967 borders would have remained as such if Israel wasn’t attacked from those zones. If they give back the territory, who is to say the rocketeers won’t fire their weapons further into Israel?

John 16:33

 

[mark46]

The thing is the 1967 borders would have remained as such if Israel wasn’t attacked from those zones. If they give back the territory, who is to say the rocketeers won’t fire their weapons further into Israel?

John 16:33

The territory isn't more than they have now.

In any case, I guess that you are suggesting that Israel's allies would attack Israel. I was suggesting giving the territory back to Egypt and Jordan. I think that Israel would have had a lot less trouble from Gaza if the territory was under Egyptian control over the past 10 years. And even if Egyptian allowed Hamas to have rockets, Israel would shoot them down, as they do now.

As for as the West Bank, Jordan would probably continue to allow the Palestine Authority to govern, while Jordan mainintained border security. Israel and the Palestinians would both be much better off.

of course, the real issue is that neither Egypt nor Jordan wanted the territory back. Even now, neither wants more Palestinian refugees in their countries.

 

[Valletta]

A much better approach would have been to give back Gaza to Egypt and allow them to allow elections (if they wished) and to provide security. Of ccourse, the West Bank should also have been returned to Jordan. After all, it was Jordanian territory since 1967. Many, many countries have pressured Israel to restore the 1967 borders. They shoud have taken these countries at their word and returned the territories.

Realize most Palestinians were not alive in 1967. The reality of today is that many in Palestine are jihadists or sympathizers, and the U.S. has too much looked the other way from those who espouse the same hatred in our country.

 

[Lukaris]

The territory isn't more than they have now.

In any case, I guess that you are suggesting that Israel's allies would attack Israel. I was suggesting giving the territory back to Egypt and Jordan. I think that Israel would have had a lot less trouble from Gaza if the territory was under Egyptian control over the past 10 years. And even if Egyptian allowed Hamas to have rockets, Israel would shoot them down, as they do now.

As for as the West Bank, Jordan would probably continue to allow the Palestine Authority to govern, while Jordan mainintained border security. Israel and the Palestinians would both be much better off.

of course, the real issue is that neither Egypt nor Jordan wanted the territory back. Even now, neither wants more Palestinian refugees in their countries.

I wasn’t suggesting that Egypt, Jordan etc. would attack Israel. I believe the territory would probably Palestinian by default and anyone else’s official control would not be firm. The situation would probably be like that of Lebanon in the north.

I hadn’t fully thought out my point when I posted but that was in the back of my mind.

 

[wing2000]

U.S. forces have been attacked by Iranian backed terrorist organizations. The Biden administration has relaxed sanctions on Iran and provided Iran with billions which will be used to fund terrorism--including the atomic bomb. Once Iran has the atomic bomb they will use it first on Israel. Next the rest of non-Muslims. So too we don't know the number of terrorists that have crossed our southern border due to Biden border policies. Both of these situations are reality, in both the terrorists have brought the war to us. Have we learned from the Hamas attack on Israel?

And your solution for removing Iran's nuclear capability?

Valletta said:
I think it is going way beyond that. Iran sponsored Hamas and Iran is behind the attacks on Americans. After Hamas the nuclear capability of Iran needs to be removed.

 

[mark46]

I wasn’t suggesting that Egypt, Jordan etc. would attack Israel. I believe the territory would probably Palestinian by default and anyone else’s official control would not be firm. The situation would probably be like that of Lebanon in the north.

I hadn’t fully thought out my point when I posted but that was in the back of my mind.

Hazbullah controls the government in Lebanon.

I am suggesting that Egypt would not allow Egyptian controlled Gaza to attack Israel; the same for Jordan.

 

[Valletta]

And your solution for removing Iran's nuclear capability?

Valletta said:
I think it is going way beyond that. Iran sponsored Hamas and Iran is behind the attacks on Americans. After Hamas the nuclear capability of Iran needs to be removed.

It must be destroyed one way or another.

 

[benadamm]

Because I'm a student of the wars of WWII, and so many see that as the "just" war, I just tend to think, "what would FDR or Churchill do, assuming Gaza is Germany and Hamas is the Nazi party. Same with Japan regarding the military vs civilians.

It makes the answer to individual situations pretty obvious, at least to me.

An example: We bombed the heck out of Berlin and the bombing of Dresden is (in)famous. But after Germany surrendered, we did a tremendous airlift to bring in supplies to West Berlin, though during the war we had a different perspective on that city and its inhabitants. War is war. Peace is peace. They are different things that each require their own decision making process.

BTW, this is my first day here. I didn't come here to discuss politics, but when I clicked on new posts, that's what was there. Apparently it's a very popular topic. At least today...

Hi and welcome.
You know, the Nazis had a sense of guilt to deal with. The guys shooting Jewish men and women over mass graves went home to drink that away.
Hamas is proud of killing the Jews. Calling their parents to brag. Hamas has no respect for any citizens. Placing military targets in their midst. Targeting citizens instead of military targets. They don't care about their own children the certainly don't care about anyone else's.
They should be completely eliminated along with any other groups that
act in like manner.

 

[benadamm]

Every single member?
Who determines who was in Hamas when it launched these attacks?

If possible every member. I think Israel's intelligence is determining members with certainty.

 

[stevevw]

Should Hamas keep up the fight, and fight Israel to the bitter end? Or surrender and fully submit to the authority of Israel, turning over their weapons and facing up to the consequences of their immoral and unjustified terrorist attack?

Perhaps some think a lesson needs to be learned, and this should drag out a bit longer for the message to really sink in.

Or maybe you think Hamas is in the right, and Israel should be destroyed.

Say your piece, and vote as you do.

I think its got to a point where no one is going to surrender. Isreal has had enough and the DNA of terror groups like Hamas can never change from wanting to get rid of Isreal.

I'm thinking this is where things have evolved and theres no turning back. No more treaties that keep getting broken. Its either end Hamas or end Isreal.

This same sentiment seems to be reflected all over the place and the issue is becoming a world issue where Jews are being attacked and persecuted. Its rather unbelievable that we are facing something similar to the Nazis all over again. This is so far from a world at peace.

My concern is that it may not just stop with either Hamas or Isreal but expand and become a international conflict. Isreal says that getting rid of Hamas is not only good for them but the world in gaining peace and I tend to agree it seems to have got to this point in time.

 

[stevevw]

Thousands of years ago what is happening today worldwide
is foretold in Prophecy(Divine Utterance) in Scripture.

Yes its starting to seem that way. It seems to be coming full circle in that events are causing the Jews to get back to who they are as a people and their biblical roots. At the same time this is seen as an attack on surrounding ethnic groups opposed to Isreal. I think this is the aim of extremist to bring about division and a final great gihad against a common enermy.

 

[mark46]

I think its got to a point where no one is going to surrender. Isreal has had enough and the DNA of terror groups like Hamas can never change from wanting to get rid of Isreal.

I'm thinking this is where things have evolved and theres no turning back. No more treaties that keep getting broken. Its either end Hamas or end Isreal.

This same sentiment seems to be reflected all over the place and the issue is becoming a world issue where Jews are being attacked and persecuted. Its rather unbelievable that we are facing something similar to the Nazis all over again. This is so far from a world at peace.

My concern is that it may not just stop with either Hamas or Isreal but expand and become a international conflict. Isreal says that getting rid of Hamas is not only good for them but the world in gaining peace and I tend to agree it seems to have got to this point in time.

Agree. No one will surrender. Some thoughts in moving forward

THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION
Hamas has refused to supply the hospitals and other citizen centers in need. Hamas has lots of fuel stores. Hamas continues to interfere with humanitarian efforts. Jordan showed that there could be humanitarian drops if Hamas allowed. Israel has tried to provide fuel, incubators and other supplies to the large remaining hospital. Hamas does not allow it. Hamas builds its command centers under and in hospitals and schools, and then gets civilians to camp out in those same institutions. Then, of course, they show pictures of the dead.

THE ALLIES
The Sunni Arab governments are allies of Israel. They very much want the Shia terrorist group Hamas destroyed. They also want the Shia groups in Lebanon (Hezbollah), Syria and Iraq contained. Iran is the enemy for them, not Israel. Their problem is with the Arab street. The leaders fear revolutions if they cannot contain Israel's excesses. The US has less of an issue, but still Biden must go through silly hoops, while there are pro-Hamas rallies.

ISRAEL
Shame on Israel for their intelligence failures. And, yes, they needed less undirected bombing. Also, they should have been much, much more careful in any bombing outside Gaza City. This was part of their outrage and revenge.

However, Israel has been very open in their plans to surround Gaza City, and then to go in and destroy the tunnels and other Hamas infrastructure, in addition to killing the Hamas leadership. Israel has been encouraging movement out of the North for a month. It has been encouraging humanitarian aid for a month. Yes, Israel refuses to allow fuel, fuel which Hamas hoards and will not share with its hospitals and people.

THE KEY to the future is the West Bank. Israel must change governments, remove all settlements from the West Bank, withdraw from the West Bank, and continue to partner with the government regarding security AS PARTNERS. Israel should relinquish all control and support their government. The West Bank government is unpopular because they have given much, and then the Israeli government has been very harsh with their settlement "policy" being the worst of their policies. [In effect, they did exactly this in Gaza, years ago]

There should be a path to statehood. Arab countries, the US and Israel should recognize the state of Palestine with the geography of the West Bank. This might need a timeline (as is usually the case), especially with regard to Israel withdrawal and internal security. The PLO recognizes Israel. Israel should recognize Palestine. It is really as simple as that. Of course, there will be the open isssues of Jerusalem and Gaza. That may be for another decade. For now, the state of Palestine should be a reality.

GAZA AFTER THE WAR
No one knows. Obviously, billions of humanitarian aid can come in. The issues will be security, governance, and ultimately, self-rule, The Arab states will need to step up if Israel is to have no part in security within Gaza. Moving toward self-rule could take a decade, even if everyone was on board, helping.