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Should Christians take up arms ?

MrJim

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No. No thumbs up.

Never give any govt absolute obedience---how many Christians followed hitler because that was the "biblical" thing to do? Especially in this day and age every action this and other administrations in every govt take are suspect-only God gets absolute obedience--the govt is not your friend even when they wrap themselves in the red, white, and blue and call for you to perform your "patriotic duty" you're a pawn in the devil's schemes.

BTW you have the anabaptist symbol for your faith avatar...I know because I was involved in helping to design it:cool:
 
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JM

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MrJim, it would be unfair to sum up the Reformed Baptist position, as you have done, based on a few pages of commentry. Especially if the writer wasn't dealing directly with the issues you raised by you post.
 
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MrJim

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MrJim, it would be unfair to sum up the Reformed Baptist position, as you have done, based on a few pages of commentry. Especially if the writer wasn't dealing directly with the issues you raised by you post.

"Confessions" tend to be used as blanket statements, just getting my 2 cents in ;)
 
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JoshuaDaryl

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No. No thumbs up.

Never give any govt absolute obedience---how many Christians followed hitler because that was the "biblical" thing to do? Especially in this day and age every action this and other administrations in every govt take are suspect-only God gets absolute obedience--the govt is not your friend even when they wrap themselves in the red, white, and blue and call for you to perform your "patriotic duty" you're a pawn in the devil's schemes.

BTW you have the anabaptist symbol for your faith avatar...I know because I was involved in helping to design it:cool:
you think I do not know I have the anabaptist signature, you think I do not know where I attend church, well I do.
Thus the post with the question, thus the confession of my internal struggle. Should a brother or sister who has doubts or questions just hide them behind a smile and live a lie mrJim, I think it more Godly to be open and honest, and discuss it with fellow believers.
 
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th1bill

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you think I do not know I have the anabaptist signature, you think I do not know where I attend church, well I do.
Thus the post with the question, thus the confession of my internal struggle. Should a brother or sister who has doubts or questions just hide them behind a smile and live a lie mrJim, I think it more Godly to be open and honest, and discuss it with fellow believers.
Amen!
 
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MrJim

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you think I do not know I have the anabaptist signature, you think I do not know where I attend church, well I do.
Thus the post with the question, thus the confession of my internal struggle. Should a brother or sister who has doubts or questions just hide them behind a smile and live a lie mrJim, I think it more Godly to be open and honest, and discuss it with fellow believers.

Just wanting to clarify~no sir you are correct, in fact way too many of us hide behind labels and titles and categorizations because it's easy.

mea culpa ~ mea MAGNA culpa :sorry:
 
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com7fy8

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"But Jesus said to him, 'Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.'" (Matthew 26:52)

Satan's kingdom of evil will do things to make it look bad to do what Jesus says to do.

So, if He says to do something, first it is good to make sure with Him about what He means . . . plus how to do it :)

You can't be a good soldier unless you first become a good citizen.

You need to know what you stand for and so what you are fighting for. And you need to know how to live in love and peace so you can bring love and peace and joy with your victory.

But there are plenty of people who do not know how to love; but they can fight and win battles. Their families are breaking up, partly because they are not strong and so they are broken by what they do and go through. God's love makes us strong so we can bear doing whatsoever He has us doing.

But we see how things have gone when a nation of sin has tried to fight a war right > if you can't take care of your own people right, surely you will not be able to fight right and bring peace.

We see how sin ruined things for the Jews when they fought with Ai > Joshua chapter seven. Also, see what happened when the Jews made a bad military choice because "they did not ask counsel of the LORD" > Joshua 9.

Jesus says, "'He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much.'" (Luke 16:10)

So, if you are unjust in how you take care of your family, how can you be right for taking care of your country or another country?

The main battle to win, then, is first in our own character and personality, so that we can do God's will and all He really means by His word > this includes being "swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (in James 1:19) so we are able to rightly understand.

Our character can effect how well we can understand God's word. There are people who can pride themselves in force, and who can depend on "the sword" as their way to get what they desire and want to protect; and this depending on less than God can get us in trouble. And, of course, if God's word says something, then surely Satan will use very dirty things to make it look bad to do what God says to do.

So, I would say do not let Satan's threats decide if you do what Jesus says to do.

If we read something in God's word, it is wise not to be swift to first think of problems we have about what God's word says to do :)

But Romans 13:4 does say . . . about someone in secular power, I understand > "For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."

So, I see that God does use secular authority people to "bear the sword" against evil doers. But how are these people in authority becoming, themselves, while they do this? I notice how some number of people of law enforcement and the military are not deeply sound and strong enough to handle what they are doing > even before they go into traumatic situations, already they can be too weak to control just a glass of booze or a cigarette, never mind control themselves for war and law enforcement and the interpersonal problems that can be in military and enforcement chains of command; so ones are weak, to begin with, so then they can suffer so much the more in war and other conflicts. You need to be ready to relate with other personalities > "Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

Paul says, "Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation," in Philippians 2:14-16. If we do not have love's self-control against arguing and complaining, we also "might" not be strong enough to bear very hard things in this world. In God's love making us strong against arguing and complaining, we have His almighty strength to also keep us safe emotionally and spiritually during hard things of this life. A soldier needs to be ready, in love's strength > "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might." (Ephesians 6:10)

"And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

So - - for doing what really is God's will, we have grace almighty so we can bear well in love whatever we go through > love "bears all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7.

Paul was so tortured and stoned, and had so many people against him; yet in God's grace almighty of God's love he took "pleasure" in all he went through > 2 Corinthians 12:7-10. So, he was a ready soldier, but also he fought for what brings peace with God. Helping this world's people with their causes "might" not be the same thing. This world is very evil; and it can do nasty things to keep our attention away from the real fight which we need to fight.

If a nation is ok with attacking and killing unborn people, how can this nation have the character to stand against the attacks of terrorism? So many are weak in fear, but "Perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment; but he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18) So, while ones are in weakness so they can kill their unborn and fight and argue in their marriages, their weakness of this makes them available to being controlled by fear. Their fighting can be because of pride making sure they do not see how they themselves are into murder and using people instead of loving any and all people like Jesus wants (Matthew 5:46).

But we Christians love our enemies, even as ourselves . . . like Jesus did, on the cross > "And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, and offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2) So, if we are not able and ready to love like this, we are not ready to fight right. And yes Satan will bring things to excuse us and distract us from this. It is not our "job" to fight this selfish world's battles! We are specialists in love and compassion and forgiveness :)

So, I consider that if God calls people to be police and soldiers, this is so they can be examples of how to win in love and enforce good by our example of how to love > "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)
 
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Goodbook

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I dont recall any followers in the book of acts using anything to defend themselves against the enemy except prayer. Paul was stoned and beaten but didnt fight back. The sword he used was the sword of the spirit to cut to peoples heart with the word of God.

We are to submit to God, RESIST the devil and he will flee from us.

Thats right, the devil will flee. We dont have to engage in battle. Its the Lord who fights for us. Hes got tens of thiusand angels who can do a much better job. As a soldier of Christ, we spend our part on our knees in prayer.
 
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brinny

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The Bible teaches that we have the right to self defense.
Exodus 22, NASB
2 If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account.
The Bible also tells us to protect the innocent.
Deuteronomy 19
10 "So innocent blood will not be shed in the midst of your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, and bloodguiltiness be on you."
Applying these principles to war, it seems to me that war is justifiable when it is in self defense and/or when it is to protect the innocent. That justifies both Iraq and Afghanistan, it justifies Desert Storm and every other 20th Century war. Therefore, a Christian could rightfully engage in war given those conditions.

i agree.
 
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mikedsjr

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Is there a Scripture commanding Christians not to take up arms or forbids it? No.

Where the Scripture is silent, we need to be careful not to create rules against or impose the rule. Let each person in his own mind decide. This is very much like Peter and the food issue. Been you have those who hate a right someone else has, depending on the side you are on, a Christian must be sensitive to others for the sake of the gospel.
 
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98cwitr

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Agreed as well Mike. In the light of our service men and women, Christ Himself found great faith in a solider. The question is, what did the solider do? He followed orders and gave orders. Luke 7. Verse 7 really amazes me!
 
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Oscuro

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I struggle with the question of whether or not a child of God if given the choice should take up arms. What if they are drafted into the service. These days I am leaning more and more towards a non resistance stance. Those who know me and my family know I am a man far from innocence when it comes to violence, as my past before Christ, and sometime after is littered with it, but a child of the Lord is suppose to grow and change, and I feel led to a non violent life. I admire Charles Spurgeon, and some of his quotes mirror my own thoughts and feelings...

Spurgeon Speaks to Today’s Christian:

The Lord’s battles, what are they? Not the garment rolled in blood, not the noise, and smoke, and din of human slaughter. These may be the devil’s battles, if you please, but not the Lord’s. They may be days of God’s vengeance but in their strife the servant of Jesus may not mingle. (“War! War! War!” May 1, 1859)

Long have I held that war is an enormous crime; long have I regarded all battles as but murder on a large scale. ["India's Ills and England's Sorrows," September 6, 1857]

Christ’s church hath been also miserably befooled; for this I will assert, and prove too, that the progress of the arms of a Christian nation is not the progress of Christianity,

Why does a peaceful nation bluster and threaten for a few months, and even commence fighting, when in a short time it sighs for peace, and illuminates its streets as soon as peace is proclaimed? The immediate causes differ, but the abiding reason is the same — man is fallen, and belongs to a race of which infallible revelation declares “their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways, and the way of peace they have not known.”

The Christian soldier hath no gun and no sword, for he fighteth not with men. It is with”spiritual wickedness in high places” that he fights, and with other principalities and powers than with those that sit on thrones and hold sceptres in their hands.

The church, we affirm, can neither be preserved nor can its interests be promoted by human armies. We have all thought otherwise in our time, and have foolishly said when a fresh territory was annexed to our empire, “Ah! what a providence that England has annexed Oude,” — or taken to itself some other territory — “Now a door is opened for the Gospel” (“Independence of Christianity,” August 31, 1857) [This was also said by some American evangelical leaders who endorsed the invasion of Iraq. Quotes Now, linked here]**

Our kingdom is not of this world; else would God’s servants fight with sword and spear. Ours is a spiritual kingdom, and the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual, and mighty through God, to the pulling down of strongholds

A war against falsehood, a war against sin, is God’s war; it is a war which commends itself to every Christian man, seeing he is quite certain that he has the seal of God’s approval when he goes to wage war against God’s enemies. Beloved, we have no doubt whatever, when we lift up our voices like a trumpet against sin, that our warfare is justified by the eternal laws of justice.

I would enjoy differing thoughts, and if possible scripture I may have overlooked, or even see the scripture from a different angle...

NO Christianity should not take up arms that is ridiculous .
 
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JM

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Most of you "Baptists" are really Anabaptists. What kills me the most...ya'll vote Neo-Con! (Republican) And make posts about "Standing with Israel."
 

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BrokenWarrior

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God says it's wrong to murder,never said anything about killing.

There's a difference.

It's a tough subject...

Yes,Christ did say that those who live by the sword,die by it. But He never said you'd end up in hell,or say it was evil.

Not to mention God led Isreal to the Promised land. And I can assure you that there was plenty of blood shed.

Personally,as long as I'm not maliciously seeking to kill,I believe bearing arms is ok to defend ones self and family.

Seek Truth,
-Your Brother In Christ
 
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