Should Christians take up arms ?

[JoshuaDaryl]

I struggle with the question of whether or not a child of God if given the choice should take up arms. What if they are drafted into the service. These days I am leaning more and more towards a non resistance stance. Those who know me and my family know I am a man far from innocence when it comes to violence, as my past before Christ, and sometime after is littered with it, but a child of the Lord is suppose to grow and change, and I feel led to a non violent life. I admire Charles Spurgeon, and some of his quotes mirror my own thoughts and feelings...

Spurgeon Speaks to Today’s Christian:

The Lord’s battles, what are they? Not the garment rolled in blood, not the noise, and smoke, and din of human slaughter. These may be the devil’s battles, if you please, but not the Lord’s. They may be days of God’s vengeance but in their strife the servant of Jesus may not mingle. (“War! War! War!” May 1, 1859)

Long have I held that war is an enormous crime; long have I regarded all battles as but murder on a large scale. ["India's Ills and England's Sorrows," September 6, 1857]

Christ’s church hath been also miserably befooled; for this I will assert, and prove too, that the progress of the arms of a Christian nation is not the progress of Christianity,

Why does a peaceful nation bluster and threaten for a few months, and even commence fighting, when in a short time it sighs for peace, and illuminates its streets as soon as peace is proclaimed? The immediate causes differ, but the abiding reason is the same — man is fallen, and belongs to a race of which infallible revelation declares “their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways, and the way of peace they have not known.”

The Christian soldier hath no gun and no sword, for he fighteth not with men. It is with”spiritual wickedness in high places” that he fights, and with other principalities and powers than with those that sit on thrones and hold sceptres in their hands.

The church, we affirm, can neither be preserved nor can its interests be promoted by human armies. We have all thought otherwise in our time, and have foolishly said when a fresh territory was annexed to our empire, “Ah! what a providence that England has annexed Oude,” — or taken to itself some other territory — “Now a door is opened for the Gospel” (“Independence of Christianity,” August 31, 1857) [This was also said by some American evangelical leaders who endorsed the invasion of Iraq. Quotes Now, linked here]**

Our kingdom is not of this world; else would God’s servants fight with sword and spear. Ours is a spiritual kingdom, and the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual, and mighty through God, to the pulling down of strongholds

A war against falsehood, a war against sin, is God’s war; it is a war which commends itself to every Christian man, seeing he is quite certain that he has the seal of God’s approval when he goes to wage war against God’s enemies. Beloved, we have no doubt whatever, when we lift up our voices like a trumpet against sin, that our warfare is justified by the eternal laws of justice.

I would enjoy differing thoughts, and if possible scripture I may have overlooked, or even see the scripture from a different angle...

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

Two Swords: Enough Jun17

Luke 22

35 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” 36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.” 38 And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough” [ESV].

First, we might note the hyperbole of selling an essential garment in order to buy a sword. What is being emphasized is the critical situation that is developing.

The context of this setting is immediately before they go to the Mount of Olives where Jesus will be arrested and where Peter will use one of those swords (John 18). “Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword” (Matt. 26).



But back to the immediate context of the “swords”–there are clear clues in this hard saying for us to follow. We are told that the disciples possess “two.” Jesus reply, “It is enough,” can only mean either 1) that two swords are sufficient to fill the prescription [that the Scripture about being “numbered with the transgressors” must be fulfilled](Marshall thinks this not “probable”) or 2) that “enough” is a rebuke to the disciples for not understanding him.

“The words, ‘It is enough’, may imply that that is enough of that kind of talk”–The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology

Norval Geldenhuys, Luke (NICNT) thinks that, rather than a rebuke, this “ends the discussion sorrowfully.”

I. Howard Marshall, in Luke (NIGTC), says, “It is most probable that this simply means ‘That’s enough(sc. of this conversation) and is meant as a rebuke….This is the final conversation-piece in the extended dialogue…It brings to a climax the misunderstanding and earthly-mindedness of the disciples [how contemporary for us disciples today!]which has already figured three times in the dialogue…the disciples fail to understand; taking Jesus literally, they produce two swords, and Jesus has to rebuke them for their lack of comprehension…”

 

[JM]

I know this might seem a little glib, perhaps naive, but God gave us life and I believe we should defend it.

"It is lawful for Christians to accept and execute the office of a magistrate when called there unto; in the management whereof, as they ought especially to maintain justice and peace, according to the wholesome laws of each kingdom and commonwealth, so for that end they may lawfully now, under the New Testament wage war upon just and necessary occasions." London Baptist Confession, 1689

The 1689 is a Baptist rewrite of the Westminster and Savoy Confessions. It seems Baptists were seeking to express themselves along Reformed lines and echoed what Baptists believed using established confessional language.

Robert Shaw (a Presbyterian) comments on the portion of the confession shared by Baptists, Presbyterians and Congregational churches,

"War must be regarded as a great evil, but in the present state of the world it is sometimes necessary; and if a nation were to adopt and act upon the principle that war is absolutely unlawful, it would soon become a prey to its ambitious neighbours. Under the Old Testament, wars were undertaken by the express command and with the approbation of God; but he could never command and approve of what is morally wrong. In the New Testament, too, there are various circumstances stated which countenance the lawfulness of magistrates waging war, and of Christians bearing arms. When the soldiers inquired of John what they should do, he said unto them, "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely;" but he did not command them to relinquish their profession, as unlawful; on the contrary, the precept which he added, "Be content with your wages," supposed them to continue in their situation.–Luke iii. 14. The first Gentile convert who was received into the Christian Church was a centurion; but Peter, when he baptised him, did not require him to give up his situation in the Roman army.–Acts x. To determine the several cases in which war may be justifiable would be out of place here; it may, however, be generally stated, that aggressive wars, or such as are undertaken to gratify views of ambition or worldly aggrandisement, cannot be justified; but that defensive wars, or those which, as to the first occasion of them, are defensive, though in their progress they must often be offensive, are lawful."

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

I know this might seem a little glib, perhaps naive, but God gave us life and I believe we should defend it.

"It is lawful for Christians to accept and execute the office of a magistrate when called there unto; in the management whereof, as they ought especially to maintain justice and peace, according to the wholesome laws of each kingdom and commonwealth, so for that end they may lawfully now, under the New Testament wage war upon just and necessary occasions." London Baptist Confession, 1689

The 1689 is a Baptist rewrite of the Westminster and Savoy Confessions. It seems Baptists were seeking to express themselves along Reformed lines and echoed what Baptists believed using established confessional language.

Robert Shaw (a Presbyterian) comments on the portion of the confession shared by Baptists, Presbyterians and Congregational churches,

"War must be regarded as a great evil, but in the present state of the world it is sometimes necessary; and if a nation were to adopt and act upon the principle that war is absolutely unlawful, it would soon become a prey to its ambitious neighbours. Under the Old Testament, wars were undertaken by the express command and with the approbation of God; but he could never command and approve of what is morally wrong. In the New Testament, too, there are various circumstances stated which countenance the lawfulness of magistrates waging war, and of Christians bearing arms. When the soldiers inquired of John what they should do, he said unto them, "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely;" but he did not command them to relinquish their profession, as unlawful; on the contrary, the precept which he added, "Be content with your wages," supposed them to continue in their situation.–Luke iii. 14. The first Gentile convert who was received into the Christian Church was a centurion; but Peter, when he baptised him, did not require him to give up his situation in the Roman army.–Acts x. To determine the several cases in which war may be justifiable would be out of place here; it may, however, be generally stated, that aggressive wars, or such as are undertaken to gratify views of ambition or worldly aggrandisement, cannot be justified; but that defensive wars, or those which, as to the first occasion of them, are defensive, though in their progress they must often be offensive, are lawful."

Yours in the Lord,

jm

You make some compelling points. My Mennonite friends counter this with God uses the Lost to wield the sword. I do not know if I agree with that or not, as my mind can think of many ifs ands ors buts. But the question comes back, are my excuses spiritual, or flesh.

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

The Bible teaches that we have the right to self defense.

Exodus 22, NASB
2 If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account.
​

The Bible also tells us to protect the innocent.

Deuteronomy 19
10 "So innocent blood will not be shed in the midst of your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, and bloodguiltiness be on you."
​

Applying these principles to war, it seems to me that war is justifiable when it is in self defense and/or when it is to protect the innocent. That justifies both Iraq and Afghanistan, it justifies Desert Storm and every other 20th Century war. Therefore, a Christian could rightfully engage in war given those conditions.

 

[JM]

You make some compelling points. My Mennonite friends counter this with God uses the Lost to wield the sword. I do not know if I agree with that or not, as my mind can think of many ifs ands ors buts. But the question comes back, are my excuses spiritual, or flesh.

I’m sure you are familiar with the history of the Anabaptists but there were two groups espousing oppose, both extreme, views. The Anabaptist position that survived the early Reformation taught by fellas like Meno Simons was peaceful but almost Gnostic in the way it shunned all worldly things including government, war, etc. as inherently evil. The other group of Anabaptists believed in taking over the earth and imposing the Kingdom of God by the sword, had multiple wives, etc. A just war is just if it is waged to uphold God's moral Law and all that entails.

I'm at work and responding while on break so let me think about it a little more (while fishing tomorrow) and I'll post again.

jm

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus did say, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” (in John 18:36) Jesus did not have people defending His life.

Years ago, I understood that Jesus wants me to love my enemies but also to serve "God and country" and die a martyr's death so I would go straight to Heaven. So, how would I serve in Vietnam for God and country and love the enemies? I made up a plan. I would join the Marines as a Corpsman who would be their healing angel. Also, when I saw a Vietnamese soldier get shot, I would run to him and give him medical care. Of course, then both sides would shoot at me and I would go to Heaven.

I decided not to tell the recruiter my plans

But, it turned out, the Marines had just pulled out of "Nam". So, I signed for regular hospital training and duty so I could have training that I could use as a civilian . . . since my plans to die had been so dashed.

And during boot camp the Vietnam conflict was declared officially ended.

What I see is the possibility that since I had resolved to "obey" the Gospel message about loving, I sowed my intentions and God had things work so it did not happen. For all I know, my doing that spiritually could have totally wrecked the war activity which "might" have been of Satan's kingdom. Possibly, it sent Satanic powers into confusion, since my plan was not what Satan's kingdom was promoting that people do?

Can one person have this much effect? The angel of the LORD told Abraham, "'In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.'" (Genesis 22:18) So, yes I would say your obedience can get many people blessed . . . even if what I did was not really obedient, maybe only a coincidence In Jesus we can

"Maybe" I was not quite . . . something. But it shows the idea that what you intend could be connected with how God might have things work out. So, if I am preparing to use force to kill and hurt people, in order to protect myself, this could be sowing what will produce opportunities for me to . . . fight and kill. It is important to make sure about which spiritual kingdom we are sowing in.

What we are thinking can be the prayer God hears, or our thinking with stinking can be producing results in Satan's kingdom; so it is important to understand and do what God pleases.

Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29) So, our arguing and forcing spirit can have us sowing in the wrong kingdom. If I am ready to be unforgiving, this is not sowing in God's kingdom and can help to attract things for me to be unforgiving about.

 

[USCGrad90]

I tend to think that violence should be avoided when possible, but that it is not always possible. With so many battles noted in the Bible, I tend to think that it is sometimes unavoidable. There are many Christians who serve in the military by choice and I do not think it is wrong. Based on the stories told in our church by soldiers who returned from Iraq and Afghanistan, their service was justified by the response and appreciation shown to them by the locals they dealt with.

 

[th1bill]

Hi Josh,
Being a Blooded vet I'll bet you already know my position. I respectthe Mennonites but their sayings are not scripture and though I've said it over and over, I'll say it again, "No scripture, group of scripture nor any collection of scriptures can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it/them."

Jesus is the inspiration for all of the scripture, John 1:1-3, and He has never, never, changed, Mal. 3:6a. There are verses, particularly in the New
Testament that, taken out of the whole context of the Bible, can be used to prove a Christian should never go to war for any reason. But that does require a great violation of the rule of hermeneutics and the heretical belief that God changed between the writing of the two Testaments.

Whenever we read of King David we read of a warrior that became king after he was anointed into the service of God. God did not allow David the honor of building the House of God because of his bloody hands but God still proclaimed him a man after His own heart. And these popular verses against war need, also, to be balanced against the truth that God/Jesus sent Israel into Canaan with orders to kill every man, woman and child and the livestock to purify the land. That is a command to go to war.

And, then as I read the scriptures I can find, nowhere, that I must stand back and watch my wife, my daughters and other ladies being raped by an invading force. Many will scream at that statement but having been to war I have seen what is not common to the Christian Soldier is common to our enemies. I and my men failed to save young ladies from that and from far worse because we were to late.

What I see, in the entire context of the scriptures, is we should never rush into war but we must be ever ready to obey God and to defend what God has allowed us, men, stewardship of.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

Jesus did say, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” (in John 18:36) Jesus did not have people defending His life.

Years ago, I understood that Jesus wants me to love my enemies but also to serve "God and country" and die a martyr's death so I would go straight to Heaven. So, how would I serve in Vietnam for God and country and love the enemies? I made up a plan. I would join the Marines as a Corpsman who would be their healing angel. Also, when I saw a Vietnamese soldier get shot, I would run to him and give him medical care. Of course, then both sides would shoot at me and I would go to Heaven.

I decided not to tell the recruiter my plans

But, it turned out, the Marines had just pulled out of "Nam". So, I signed for regular hospital training and duty so I could have training that I could use as a civilian . . . since my plans to die had been so dashed.

And during boot camp the Vietnam conflict was declared officially ended.

What I see is the possibility that since I had resolved to "obey" the Gospel message about loving, I sowed my intentions and God had things work so it did not happen. For all I know, my doing that spiritually could have totally wrecked the war activity which "might" have been of Satan's kingdom. Possibly, it sent Satanic powers into confusion, since my plan was not what Satan's kingdom was promoting that people do?

Can one person have this much effect? The angel of the LORD told Abraham, "'In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.'" (Genesis 22:18) So, yes I would say your obedience can get many people blessed . . . even if what I did was not really obedient, maybe only a coincidence In Jesus we can

"Maybe" I was not quite . . . something. But it shows the idea that what you intend could be connected with how God might have things work out. So, if I am preparing to use force to kill and hurt people, in order to protect myself, this could be sowing what will produce opportunities for me to . . . fight and kill. It is important to make sure about which spiritual kingdom we are sowing in.

What we are thinking can be the prayer God hears, or our thinking with stinking can be producing results in Satan's kingdom; so it is important to understand and do what God pleases.

Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29) So, our arguing and forcing spirit can have us sowing in the wrong kingdom. If I am ready to be unforgiving, this is not sowing in God's kingdom and can help to attract things for me to be unforgiving about.

I like that I have kinda thought on that direction. What has got my thinking going is all this prepper mentality, second amendment arguments, militias etc. I don't buy into none of it, of course some of my christian neighbors, good Godly people, even if I do not agree with them 100 percent, are telling me to stock up on ammo, practice my shooting. But then my Mennonite friends are 180 degrees, but I was thinking like you said, which to me is the middle ground. Pray for peace, leave it in Gods hands, and follow my daily routine trying to live like Christ.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

I tend to think that violence should be avoided when possible, but that it is not always possible. With so many battles noted in the Bible, I tend to think that it is sometimes unavoidable. There are many Christians who serve in the military by choice and I do not think it is wrong. Based on the stories told in our church by soldiers who returned from Iraq and Afghanistan, their service was justified by the response and appreciation shown to them by the locals they dealt with.

That just adds to my internal conflict, my father, was the man who led me to the Lord, was a Vietnam vet, my brother served 18 months in Afghanistan. But I also know first hand the physical and mental sacrifice it cost them.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

Hi Josh,
Being a Blooded vet I'll bet you already know my position. I respectthe Mennonites but their sayings are not scripture and though I've said it over and over, I'll say it again, "No scripture, group of scripture nor any collection of scriptures can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it/them."

Jesus is the inspiration for all of the scripture, John 1:1-3, and He has never, never, changed, Mal. 3:6a. There are verses, particularly in the New
Testament that, taken out of the whole context of the Bible, can be used to prove a Christian should never go to war for any reason. But that does require a great violation of the rule of hermeneutics and the heretical belief that God changed between the writing of the two Testaments.

Whenever we read of King David we read of a warrior that became king after he was anointed into the service of God. God did not allow David the honor of building the House of God because of his bloody hands but God still proclaimed him a man after His own heart. And these popular verses against war need, also, to be balanced against the truth that God/Jesus sent Israel into Canaan with orders to kill every man, woman and child and the livestock to purify the land. That is a command to go to war.

And, then as I read the scriptures I can find, nowhere, that I must stand back and watch my wife, my daughters and other ladies being raped by an invading force. Many will scream at that statement but having been to war I have seen what is not common to the Christian Soldier is common to our enemies. I and my men failed to save young ladies from that and from far worse because we were to late.

What I see, in the entire context of the scriptures, is we should never rush into war but we must be ever ready to obey God and to defend what God has allowed us, men, stewardship of.

Thank you Bill, you hit my struggle head on. I have heard these horrors from both my father and my brother. I also have been struggling with reconciling the old Testament with the New. I think my struggle is one of trying to find the balance. I come from a violent people. My father was the first man in his family to give himself entirely to Christ. When I say I come from a violent people, trust that I mean it to the utmost, thus my quest for a better way. One of the last things my father and I talked about before he passed on was that he took the first steps to forge a new path, and he expected me to carry it on for my children. It sounds so simple to change a way of life, but the sins of the fathers, there is something tangible there. I have fought this personal demon of a violent temper my entire life. I used to love fighting, for fun. I thought it cowardly to walk away, but Jesus has been teaching me a new way. now I need to find the balance.

Ephesians 6:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

 

[Bluelion]

Yes brother you need to take up arms. You need to take up the Sword of God which is the Word of God.

If drafted we are to obey those in authority, God raises up people to fight like king David.
so it is ok and right to obey.
Israel went to war many times.

But for those who have an ear turn the other cheek.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

Yes brother you need to take up arms. You need to take up the Sword of God which is the Word of God.

If drafted we are to obey those in authority, God raises up people to fight like king David.
so it is ok and right to obey.
Israel went to war many times.

But for those who have an ear turn the other cheek.

Yes, turning the other cheek. That being said I was reading about a man who did not believe in guns or fighting, his home was invaded and he was forced to watch his wife and children violated and murdered before his eyes, the worst part, he lived. I do believe that would be a line for me. I do possess firearms, I am a hunter. But my prayer is that Almighty God show me mercy, and protect me and my family from evil.

 

[th1bill]

Thank you Bill, you hit my struggle head on. I have heard these horrors from both my father and my brother. I also have been struggling with reconciling the old Testament with the New. I think my struggle is one of trying to find the balance. I come from a violent people. My father was the first man in his family to give himself entirely to Christ. When I say I come from a violent people, trust that I mean it to the utmost, thus my quest for a better way. One of the last things my father and I talked about before he passed on was that he took the first steps to forge a new path, and he expected me to carry it on for my children. It sounds so simple to change a way of life, but the sins of the fathers, there is something tangible there. I have fought this personal demon of a violent temper my entire life. I used to love fighting, for fun. I thought it cowardly to walk away, but Jesus has been teaching me a new way. now I need to find the balance.

Ephesians 6:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

My first experience with the presence of the LORD was the morning my best friend had take an 81mm to his chest. I was a devout Atheist but as I stood there at 7am I cursed God. It was then that I knew He existed and he was there with me... in spite of my hate and disregard for Him.

I am the pretty boy in my bunch but I also am the product of a mean bunch full of fighting and everey manor of sexual sin. When God made Himself known to me I was not very smart and knew (in my mind) that God would/could not save me. I had killed men and continued for better than a year to enjoy killing men and being the pretty boy, I hooked up with the same people that had led my mom away from God and into a life of sexual worship and sure enough, there I went, down the same road. Many nights I announced "Motel Time" at the end of my last set.

There was one joint on Highway 90 that had Chicken Wire around the Band
Stand with the emergency escape under the Drummer's Seat, used when the gunfire broke out. I can relate, I believe, to your family background. But, God has made a Bible Teacher out of me and I'm certain He has greater things planned for you.

God bless.

 

[Bluelion]

Yes, turning the other cheek. That being said I was reading about a man who did not believe in guns or fighting, his home was invaded and he was forced to watch his wife and children violated and murdered before his eyes, the worst part, he lived. I do believe that would be a line for me. I do possess firearms, I am a hunter. But my prayer is that Almighty God show me mercy, and protect me and my family from evil.

I would protect my family its part of my duty as Husband and Father. But for me i try to walk away from fights.

The turn the other cheek speak of you not when a person is in trouble. Like i said God raises up protectors like king David.

 

[MrJim]

Having been a Marine and a Mennonite (not at the same time ) I can understand your struggle very well. I've come to the conclusion that while I can accept and obey the nonviolence for myself I can't stand by and let others, particularly family and neighbors, be subject to violence because of my personal understanding of Scripture.

Supposing I was recalled to the military I would not go~~understand the difference between "submission" and "obedience"..I would surrender to the authorities but would not do their bidding. However if there was some sort of invasion in home, neighborhood, or nation threatening harm to my family and neighbors I will bring my own gear to the fight. That may make me some sort of hypocrite but it's a line I walk. Similarly I carry a sidearm when in public and I'm out with my family, but if I'm out alone usually the most I carry is a pocket knife..I don't worry much about myself.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

Having been a Marine and a Mennonite (not at the same time ) I can understand your struggle very well. I've come to the conclusion that while I can accept and obey the nonviolence for myself I can't stand by and let others, particularly family and neighbors, be subject to violence because of my personal understanding of Scripture.

Supposing I was recalled to the military I would not go~~understand the difference between "submission" and "obedience"..I would surrender to the authorities but would not do their bidding. However if there was some sort of invasion in home, neighborhood, or nation threatening harm to my family and neighbors I will bring my own gear to the fight. That may make me some sort of hypocrite but it's a line I walk. Similarly I carry a sidearm when in public and I'm out with my family, but if I'm out alone usually the most I carry is a pocket knife..I don't worry much about myself.

that is pretty much were I am, yes feeling like a Hypocrite, but you all have helped

 

[JM]

A quote from Waldon's exposition on the London Baptist Confession of Faith that might be helpful.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

A quote from Waldon's exposition on the London Baptist Confession of Faith that might be helpful.