Should Christians support Rebuilding of Jerusalem Third Temple.

[Copperhead]

[Jn18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.] k All my posted scripture kjv biblegateway, unless stated otherwise.

if you notice, that was after the Leadership of Israel had rejected the offer of the kingdom. Matthew 23:37-39; Luke 13:34-35. Several days before Yeshua was on trial before the Sanhedrin and Pilate when He stated what He did in the passage you are using.

But again, the disciples thought the restoration of Israel and the earthly kingdom with Messiah as the head was still in play (Acts 1). Yeshua only stated it was not their concern when it would happen. He never said it was a fallacy on their part.

P.S. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic believer and scholar, floated the idea that one of the reasons for the Jewish people trying to get a temple in place is that Rabbinical eschatology seems to suggest that a temple must be in place before Messiah can come. If that is the case, then one can see why they think it is so critical to get a move on doing it.

 

[DennisTate]

I am open to read your best specific points in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 47 has predictions that seem to correspond nicely to some statements in Zechariah 14 as well as to Revelation .

47 And he brought me back unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward; (for the forefront of the house was toward the east and the waters came down from under, from the right side of the house, on the south of the altar.

2 Then he brought me out by the way of the gate northward, and led me round by the way without unto the outer gate, by the way of [the gate] that looketh toward the east; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

3 When the man went forth eastward with the line in his hand, he measured a thousand cubits, and he caused me to pass through the waters, waters that were to the ankles.

4 Again he measured a thousand, and caused me to pass through the waters, waters that were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and caused me to pass through [the waters], waters that were to the loins.

5 Afterward he measured a thousand; [and it was] a river that I could not pass through; for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed through.

......

8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue forth toward the eastern region, and shall go down into the Arabah; and they shall go toward the sea; into the sea [shall the waters go] which were made to issue forth; and the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every living creature which swarmeth, in every place whither the rivers come, shall live; and there shall be a very great multitude of fish; for these waters are come thither, and [the waters of the sea] shall be healed, and everything shall live whithersoever the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that fishers shall stand by it: from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim shall be a place for the spreading of nets; their fish shall be after their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

11 But the miry places thereof, and the marshes thereof, shall not be healed; they shall be given up to salt.

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow every tree for food, whose leaf shall not whither, neither shall the fruit thereof fail: it shall bring forth new fruit every month, because the waters thereof issue out of the sanctuary; and the fruit thereof shall be for food, and the leaf thereof for healing.


......

Zechariah 14

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso of [all] the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain.


Without the restoration of rain in the Holy Land it would be challenging for that stream from the Temple to continue to flow all the way to the areas mentioned????

The brook that becomes a river in Ezekiel 47 does not have to correspond exactly with the river mentioned in Revalation but.... it would be a type of this later river at the least.

Revelation 22

22 And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve [manner of] fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[Jipsah]

Well, disregarding any new temple now, there will be a temple in the Messianic Kingdom and sacrifices will be made.

What a horrible notion! Our Lord's sacrifice made light of by returning to the slaughter of livestock, never!

Probably more as a visual aid to those mortals that go into the kingdom and their children to emphasize that it took the shedding of blood for sin.

Diabolical nonsense.

 

[Copperhead]

What a horrible notion! Our Lord's sacrifice made light of by returning to the slaughter of livestock, never!

Diabolical nonsense.

So you are saying the scripture is diabolical nonsense? Hmmm.

You seem to have missed the comments that most sacrifices had nothing to do with Sin, which is what the Lord's sacrifice was for, but for ceremonial type of things. Like when Jesus' mother offered the sacrifice for her purification after giving birth to Jesus (Luke 2:22-24). And Paul going to the temple to offer the sacrifice required for the Nazarite vow (Acts 21 and Numbers 6).

So, those two instances, one even after Jesus had been killed, resurrected, and ascension....... pure diabolical... of the devil... as you put it? Are you sure you want to stick with that idea?

 

[DennisTate]

So you are saying the scripture is diabolical nonsense? Hmmm.

You seem to have missed the comments that most sacrifices had nothing to do with Sin, which is what the Lord's sacrifice was for, but for ceremonial type of things. Like when Jesus' mother offered the sacrifice for her purification after giving birth to Jesus (Luke 2:22-24). And Paul going to the temple to offer the sacrifice required for the Nazarite vow (Acts 21 and Numbers 6).

So, those two instances, one even after Jesus had been killed, resurrected, and ascension....... pure diabolical... of the devil... as you put it? Are you sure you want to stick with that idea?

And... in Eden after Adam and Eve sinned and were given leather garments.... an animal was killed to provide the leather for those garments and the point was that their sin led to consequences.... the death of an animal. I assume a lamb or sheep.

 

[Jipsah]

So you are saying the scripture is diabolical nonsense? Hmmm.

You seem to have missed the comments that most sacrifices had nothing to do with Sin, which is what the Lord's sacrifice was for, but for ceremonial type of things. Like when Jesus' mother offered the sacrifice for her purification after giving birth to Jesus (Luke 2:22-24). And Paul going to the temple to offer the sacrifice required for the Nazarite vow (Acts 21 and Numbers 6).

So, those two instances, one even after Jesus had been killed, resurrected, and ascension....... pure diabolical... of the devil... as you put it? Are you sure you want to stick with that idea?

I’m afraid we’re following different religions, mate. In the faith I follow, there’s no thought of reinstating Temple Judaism, as though the coming of God Incarnate and the creation of His Church was merely a temporary distraction. Read the letter to the Hebrews!

 

[Copperhead]

I’m afraid we’re following different religions, mate. In the faith I follow, there’s no thought of reinstating Temple Judaism, as though the coming of God Incarnate and the creation of His Church was merely a temporary distraction. Read the letter to the Hebrews!

Could be. I take all of scripture into account, and Ezekiel and Zechariah seem to make it pretty clear that at least some portions of the Mosaic Law will be in force regarding sacrifices and feast observances during the Millennial Kingdom.

Hebrews is talking about temple sacrifice in terms of remission of sin. Especially the Yom Kippur sacrifice that seems be the yearly sacrifice that is being alluded to in Hebrews. There is a lot more to the Mosaic Law and sacrifices and offerings that do not have anything to do with individual sin or sin of the people.

 

[JLHargus]

Ezekiel 47 has predictions that seem to correspond nicely to some statements in Zechariah 14 as well as to Revelation .
47 And he brought me back unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward; (for the forefront of the house was toward the east and the waters came down from under, from the right side of the house, on the south of the altar.
2 Then he brought me out by the way of the gate northward, and led me round by the way without unto the outer gate, by the way of [the gate] that looketh toward the east; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3 When the man went forth eastward with the line in his hand, he measured a thousand cubits, and he caused me to pass through the waters, waters that were to the ankles.
4 Again he measured a thousand, and caused me to pass through the waters, waters that were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and caused me to pass through [the waters], waters that were to the loins.
5 Afterward he measured a thousand; [and it was] a river that I could not pass through; for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed through.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue forth toward the eastern region, and shall go down into the Arabah; and they shall go toward the sea; into the sea [shall the waters go] which were made to issue forth; and the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every living creature which swarmeth, in every place whither the rivers come, shall live; and there shall be a very great multitude of fish; for these waters are come thither, and [the waters of the sea] shall be healed, and everything shall live whithersoever the river cometh. 10 And it shall come to pass, that fishers shall stand by it: from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim shall be a place for the spreading of nets; their fish shall be after their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof, and the marshes thereof, shall not be healed; they shall be given up to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow every tree for food, whose leaf shall not whither, neither shall the fruit thereof fail: it shall bring forth new fruit every month, because the waters thereof issue out of the sanctuary; and the fruit thereof shall be for food, and the leaf thereof for healing.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso of [all] the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain.
Without the restoration of rain in the Holy Land it would be challenging for that stream from the Temple to continue to flow all the way to the areas mentioned????
The brook that becomes a river in Ezekiel 47 does not have to correspond exactly with the river mentioned in Revalation but.... it would be a type of this later river at the least.

Revelation 22
22 And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve [manner of] fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

JL: I see nothing in any of those scriptures that would indicate an OT temple during the millennium nor evidence Christ is physically present on earth. The symbolic 1000 years would be an undetermined length of time. The millennium will be a time of great grace, peace, blessings, joy, holiness and prosperity for the Church and humanity. In the millennium the water=Holy Spirit=God’s grace will flow from the Church, like a river.

Ezekiel 1:47 house=temple=Church where all will go up to New Jerusalem on the new earth.

 

[JLHargus]

Copperhead: Well, the disciples seem to think there was going to be a kingdom.

Acts 1:6 (NKJV) Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

At which Yeshua did not rebuke them for asking such a question, as it was valid. Many of the OT Prophets refer to Israel being restored with the Messiah reigning over it. He told them that it was not up to them but up to the Father when these things would happen. Since they seem to think a restored Israel Kingdom with the Messiah as head of it, according to the scripture, seem to be a real idea to them. We might want to think so also. [/quote]

JL: The Messiah, King Jesus the Son of David is and has been reigning over that kingdom from heaven for two thousand years now. That spiritual kingdom is in the world but not of the world, the Church.

[1Cor15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.]

The apostles rarely grasped the significance of Christ’s words till Pentecost. The apostles where expecting a political kingdom, natural, of this world. A kingdom which would throw the Romans out of natural Israel. Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world but from hence=from heaven, spiritual of the heart. His kingdom is in the world in seed from=the Church, but not of the world. That kingdom on earth in seed from is to be scattered and watered by the Church and spring up all over the earth till the harvest and the regeneration of all things.

[Jn18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.] k

[Mt3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.] k

[Mt8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.] k

If anyone is going to sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. It will not be a kingdom of this world but the world to come.

 

[JLHargus]

Copperhead: And also, if there is not a restored earth with the Messianic Kingdom, when who will we be ruling over with a rod of iron along side of Him? Revelation 2:26-27 Was John just making stuff up as he went along? And notice, it is ruling with a rod of iron. That implies a dictatorial firm kingdom where rule of law will be strictly enforced. And that conforms to a restored earth with the Messiah ruling over it. Not to be confused with the New Earth of Revelation 21 after the old earth is passed away. A restored, present earth is in view. [/quote]

JL: Jesus the Son of David, has been ruling the Messianic Kingdom from heaven, at least since He ascended. Christ shares his rule=authority with his people even now on earth through the Church and those saints in heaven.

[Lk22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.] k

Christ’s saints in heaven and earth share in that rule with a rod of iron when Jesus judges the nations.

[1Cor6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?] k

[Rv2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.] k

 

[JLHargus]

Copperhead: If there is not a 1000 year period of that, then what is Revelation 20 all about? Just filler so that Revelation would be 22 chapters instead of 21?

JL: The 1000 years would not be literal, but a period of time. From heaven Christ the King, and son of David is now, and has been ruling with the saints in heaven and on earth=Church through the Holy Spirit. After the symbolic 1000 years, however long that may be, Satan will be loosed for the final battle.

[Rv20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.] k

After the tribulation when the Beast and Antichrist have been defeated and thrown into the lake of fire, alive. Satan is bound for a thousand years and cast into the bottomless pit. Satan will be released after the millennium for a short time. Christ, from heaven rules with the saints=Church through the Holy Spirit, during the tribulation with a rod of iron judging the Church, Antichrist and his followers. The Church will have been totally purified coming though the tribulation. Most if not all, natural Israel will have been converted along with Gentiles.

[1Pt4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?] k

The millennium starts after the tribulation when Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

[Rv20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.] k

[1Thes4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.] k

[Rv20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.] k

[2Pt3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.] k

[1Cor15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.] Those in Christ and those cast into the lake of fire can never die, death is destroyed. There will only be eternal life with Christ or eternal death=existence apart from God and all the mayhem that would entail.

[Rv20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire[/b]. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.] k

[Rv21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.] k

 

[JLHargus]

Copperhead: if you notice, that was after the Leadership of Israel had rejected the offer of the kingdom. Matthew 23:37-39; Luke 13:34-35. Several days before Yeshua was on trial before the Sanhedrin and Pilate when He stated what He did in the passage you are using.

But again, the disciples thought the restoration of Israel and the earthly kingdom with Messiah as the head was still in play (Acts 1). Yeshua only stated it was not their concern when it would happen. He never said it was a fallacy on their part.

JL: [Jn18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.] k

The Messianic Kingdom and Temple, the body and bride of Christ=Church has been in the world, but not of the world, in seed from, since Christ. It was endued with power at Pentecost. That same Messianic Kingdom, in full bloom, will be present in the regenerated new earth when Christ returns in glory and Heavenly Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

The symbolic 1000 years would be an undetermined length of time. The millennium will be a time of great grace, peace, blessings, joy, holiness and prosperity for the Church and humanity. In the millennium the water=Holy Spirit=God’s grace will flow from His Temple=Church, like a river.

[Acts1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.] All scripture KJV biblegateway.com

 

[Copperhead]

JL: [Jn18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.] k

Of course not. The Messianic Kingdom has not been set up yet on this earth. That will occur when Yeshua returns and sets foot on the Mt. of Olives.

 

[Copperhead]

The symbolic 1000 years would be an undetermined length of time. The millennium will be a time of great grace, peace, blessings, joy, holiness and prosperity for the Church and humanity. In the millennium the water=Holy Spirit=God’s grace will flow from His Temple=Church, like a river.

It will be a time of great grace, peace, blessings, joy, holiness, and prosperity? Then how is it that those who will not come to Jerusalem during the feast of tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land? (Zechariah 14) How is it there is still death in the kingdom? (Isaiah 65) How is it that leaven (sin) will grow in the kingdom (Matthew 13) until at the time of Satan's release he is able to foment a last major rebellion against Messiah as per Revelation 20 and Psalm 2?

Even the Parables of Matthew 13 describe a less that ideal condition of the Kingdom. The Parable of the Sower shows the birds that Yeshua describes later as the evil ones. In the following Parable of the Mustard Seed, the birds are nesting in the kingdom. Satan himself may be locked up, but there is nothing is scripture that says the other evil angles are locked up. In the Parable of the Leaven, Leaven is introduced by the woman into 3 measures of meal which is the fellowship offering at the Temple. That is a sin in scripture. Yet we see many references in scripture how the woman Jezebel was always introducing sin into both Israel and the church. Leaven is always a symbol of sin because like pride, leaven puffs up. Yeshua told his disciples to avoid the leaven of the Pharisees.

There is nothing that allows for a allegorical interpretation that the 1000 years is symbolic. And that is it an "indeterminate" length of time.

It would be wonderful if things were as Kumbaya as you imply, but scripture doesn't support your contention.

 

[JLHargus]

Copperhead: Of course not. The Messianic Kingdom has not been set up yet on this earth. That will occur when Yeshua returns and set foot on the Mt. of Olives.

JL: I find no evidence Jesus will return before the end of the 1000 years. I am open to any evidence you might have regarding Mt. of Olives or any other evidence.

The Kingdom has been present in the world but not of the world, with power since Pentecost. When Jesus returns and the last judgment is complete. Heavenly Jerusalem will come down on the new regenerated earth. Then the kingdom will be present on the new regenerated earth in its fullness. God will dwell with us. The following scriptures tell us when Christ returns

[Acts3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.] k

Jesus will remain in heaven until restitution of all things, that will occur after the 1000 years, the last judgment and Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. Then New Jerusalem will come down from heaven and God will dwell with us on the new regenerated earth and universe.

[Rv20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven,and devoured them.] k

[1Thes4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.] k

[1Cor15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.]

Notice in 1Thes 4:16-17 and 1Cor15:21-24, at Christ’s coming those dead in Christ are resurrected. Those alive on earth that are Christ’s will meet them in the air. What happens next? Then cometh the end.

Christ never physically reigns on earth in the 1000 year period, which has passed before He returns. Also notice below 2Pt3:10-13, the day of the Lord, that would be when He comes. The heavens=universe will pass away, melt with fervent heat the earth also.

[2Pt3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 1 3 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.]

[Rv20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.]

If the present earth and universe are so tainted with sin that they must flee from the face of our glorified Lord Jesus at His coming, how could it be possible for this present earth to remain while He physically reigns on it for a 1000 years?

[Mt16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.]

Scripture never says at Christ’s return He will physically reign on this present earth for 1000 years. In fact, scripture clearly tells us when Christ returns then comes the end, the universe and earth shall pass away, melt with fervent heat. We look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[Rv1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.]
All scripture KJV biblegateway

 

[JLHargus]

Copperhead: It will be a time of great grace, peace, blessings, joy, holiness, and prosperity? Then how is it that those who will not come to Jerusalem during the feast of tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land? (Zechariah 14)

JL: Zechariah’s prophecy was first fulfilled in 70AD by the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem on their third assault. It may also have another final fulfillment at the last battle of the tribulation just before the 1000 years.

Zachariah in that same prophecy had a vision of Christ standing on the Mt of Olives at the time of Christ visitation, pronouncing judgment on Jerusalem.

[Lk19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. 45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;] k

Copperhead: how is it that those who will not come to Jerusalem during the feast of tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land? (Zechariah 14)

JL: Catholics are obliged to go up to Jerusalem=bride of Christ=Church on Sunday. Those who will not come to Church, for the feast of the Lord’s supper=breaking of bread=mass, will have rain=grace withheld from heaven.

Copperhead: How is it there is still death in the kingdom? (Isaiah 65)

JL: As far as I can see no one has ever claimed that. Human beings will certainly die till Christ returns in glory and the dead are raised. Then death will be thrown into the lake of fire, it is the last enemy to be destroyed by Christ.

Rv20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.] k

[Rv21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.] k.

No more death in the new earth and new universe=heaven. Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men. he will dwell with them.

Copperhead: How is it that leaven (sin) will grow in the kingdom (Matthew 13) until at the time of Satan's release he is able to foment a last major rebellion against Messiah as per Revelation 20 and Psalm 2? Even the Parables of Matthew 13 describe a less that ideal condition of the Kingdom.

JL: You have said Christ will physically rule during the 1000 years, so you believe, even with Christ present and visibly ruling on the present earth the 1000 years will be no better. If it’s the same old, same old what’s the point of 1000 years with Satan bound?

There will always be sin and tares in the world and the Church till Christ returns in glory after the 1000 years. Everyone will not be a faithful Christian in the 1000 years there will still be sin. With Satan the tempter bound, and grace abounding more there will be far less sin. It will be a time of great grace, peace, blessings, joy, holiness, and prosperity for humanity?

Copperhead: There is nothing that allows for a allegorical interpretation that the 1000 years is symbolic. And that is it an "indeterminate" length of time.

JL: To me it makes no difference if one believes the 1000 years are literal or symbolic. The results will be the same regardless. I believe it is symbolic otherwise we could know the times and season reserved to the Father.

[Acts1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.]

 

[Copperhead]

Don't equate new heaven and new earth with the restored earth that the Messiah will rule over from the period at the end of the Tribulation Period until the final rebellion when Satan is released. It is only after that when death will be abolished. He will be ruling over a restored national Israel per the Davidic Covenant which was affirmed in Gabriel's comments to Mary. None of that has anything to do with the new heaven and new earth. The Disciples even asked when this restoration of the kingdom of Israel would occur, in Acts 1. Yeshua did not reject the question or the idea, He only told them it was not for them to worry about the timing, thereby affirming that it would indeed occur in the future. With the new heaven and new earth, the distinction of Israel and the nations is abolished.

 

[DennisTate]

Don't equate new heaven and new earth with the restored earth that the Messiah will rule over from the period at the end of the Tribulation Period until the final rebellion when Satan is released. It is only after that when death will be abolished. He will be ruling over a restored national Israel per the Davidic Covenant which was affirmed in Gabriel's comments to Mary. None of that has anything to do with the new heaven and new earth. The Disciples even asked when this restoration of the kingdom of Israel would occur, in Acts 1. Yeshua did not reject the question or the idea, He only told them it was not for them to worry about the timing, thereby affirming that it would indeed occur in the future. With the new heaven and new earth, the distinction of Israel and the nations is abolished.

Good points..... pretty much what I have believed for decades!

 

[JLHargus]

Copperhead, post: 74663548, member: 325470"] Don't equate new heaven and new earth with the restored earth that the Messiah will rule over from the period at the end of the Tribulation Period until the final rebellion when Satan is released. It is only after that when death will be abolished.

JL: I have never done so. I have spoken of this present earth as the present earth, the old earth or un-regenerated earth. The regenerated new earth will come after the resurrection and final judgment when death will be destroyed, as I stated in my last post.

I don’t recall scripture ever speaking specifically of a restored earth, other than a regenerated=restored new earth. Could you enlighten me scripturally how this present earth will be restored and to what it is restored, prior to the new earth and universe?

What would be the purpose of this restored national Israel, on this present earth, with Christ present and ruling during the 1000 years? Does Christ come more than twice, first as a humble man, second in His glory as King of Kings and Lord of Lords to rule for a 1000 years on this present earth?

Will Christ once again have to put aside His glory, returning to live on this present earth again for centuries? Will He keep His resurrected glorified body? Scripture tells us when Christ comes in His glory, this present earth and universe will flee before His face and no place found for them.

[Rv20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.] k

Copperhead: None of that has anything to do with the new heaven and new earth. The Disciples even asked when this restoration of the kingdom of Israel would occur, in Acts 1. Yeshua did not reject the question or the idea, He only told them it was not for them to worry about the timing, thereby affirming that it would indeed occur in the future.

JL: Jesus didn’t reject the question because the kingdom, in its fullness, with Christ present will occur in the future, after the resurrection and judgment. When Heavenly Jerusalem comes down from heaven on the new earth. Jesus nor scripture affirm a restored national Israel with Jesus present and ruling on this present earth. The kingdom is now present on earth in the regenerated people of God, the Church. Those in Christ have been translated=transferred or brought into the kingdom.

[Col1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:] k

I see no scriptural evidence Christ, after the tribulation, will rule being present on this present earth. Scripture mentions Christ’s return several times. Would you post a couple of those scriptures, you view, as support of His physical return to earth and ruling after the tribulation?

 

[JLHargus]

Copperhead: With the new heaven and new earth, the distinction of Israel and the nations is abolished.

JL: Since Christ rose there is no distinction, on this present earth or the new earth to come, between Israel and Gentile in the Messianic Kingdom=Church. Christ was born king of Israel he has been reigning, sitting on His throne of glory since He ascended. He is now reigning over the regenerated spiritual Davidic kingdom of Israel and of His kingdom there shall be no end.

[Rms12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.]

[Gal3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.]

[Eph2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:] k

[Rms2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.] k

[Col2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off[/b] the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.] k

[Gal3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.] k

[Rms11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2-4 …. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6-8 …. 9 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 10-19 …. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 …. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:]

There is only one good olive tree and kingdom by which humanity, without distinction, whether Jew or Gentile must belong to be saved, therefore Abraham’s children and heirs.