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Featured Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DennisTate, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. No... the demons have zero hope!

    11 vote(s)
    73.3%
  2. Yes..... Elijah must "restore all things"

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%
  3. I am not sure but I will research this further.

    3 vote(s)
    20.0%
  1. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    The books of knowledge (not in the Canon) is the words Jesus told the Disciples when he returned to them after he arose. It is the Secret books (like Secret James and Secret John), apocryphons not accept by the catholic ideology. Jesus explains much without parables to his elect. The words are meant for those who understand spirit, and not for the world, hence Secret.

    Since you asked me to send you a secret book which was revealed to me and Peter by the Lord, I could neither refuse you nor speak directly to you, but I have written it in Hebrew letters and have sent it to you - and to you alone. But inasmuch as you are a minister of the salvation of the saints, endeavor earnestly and take care not to recount this book to many - this which the Savior did not desire to recount to all of us, his twelve disciples. But blessed are those who will be saved through faith in this discourse.- Secret James

    The teaching of the savior, and the revelation of the mysteries and the things hidden in silence, even these things which he taught John, his disciple.- Secret John

    In Pauls letters, he refers many times to the hidden knowledge. The hidden knowledge gives clarity of many things spiritual. It compliments the Gospel message of Christ while shunning the OT ignorance that made the Jews blind to the son of God. It reveals the ignorance of early catholic ideology, which is why the priests hated it. They wanted control. It free's us from their control. It shows us how they eventually became "liars and murderers" by following the one who Jesus said was a "liar and murderer from the beginning". John 8.

    It glorifies the Father even beyond that of the Gospel, and shows, through knowledge from the Spirit, the glorified Christ.

    Those who benefit from flesh, hate it.
     
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  2. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    I quoted the words of scripture from the Gospel of Thomas just as they appeared. I added nothing.
     
  3. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Jesus didn't know what the Father knew. If he did, he wouldn't have needed his faith. The Holy Spirit within him revealed his fate as she heard.

    Christ had the Holy Spirit within him, who revealed what the Father wanted him to say:

    John:
    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    John:
    (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    The Holy Spirit is the mother. Ignorance wants us to see it as not. No one has heard Gods voice. It was the Holy Spirit who entered Jesus at the Chrism and said "this is my son". The Father speaks through the Holy Ghost as John clearly explains. The Holy Spirit speaks and you don't listen.

    Mark:
    2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
    3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
    4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
    5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
    7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

    The Holy Spirit told you who to listen to. Not Moses. Not Isaiah. But to Jesus. Yet you follow Moses and his law.

    I cannot help you. You fight for ideology over spiritual knowledge. My words fall on deaf ears.
     
  4. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    I see. The Gnostic Gospel of Thomas. So you're going to be quoting the Gnostic Jesus, and he's going to be opposed to the Canonic Jesus on many things, because the Canonic "Catholic" Jesus is "of the flesh", which the Gnostic Jesus is "of the spirit", according to the Gnostics. Got it.

    Well, that's going to be a tough row to hoe, considering that I'm Catholic and not a Sola Scripturalist in the first place, just getting to agreement on using Scripture as THE source of things is difficult enough. I'll do that with people, as long as we focus on what Jesus said.

    But we would have to go another step, and agree to use the quotes of Gnostic Jesus, which I don't have.
    I DO have "secret knowledge" of my own encounters with God and with demons - and I'm more prone to rely on what I know through personal experience to be true, though secret, than to rely upon ancient Gnostic texts that I don't even possess.

    We could go through the exercise, I suppose, but given that I think that the Holy Spirit is what guides the Catholic Church to make infallible decisions on matters of dogma - such as the one that excluded the Gnostic Gospels from the Canon - I expect we'll end up in a chicken-and-egg situation.

    I'm not HOSTILE to the Gnostic "Gospels", I just don't think they're really real.
     
  5. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    I believe that my spiritual knowledge is true. Yours conflicts with it in part because of what it is based on. You've used building materials that I believe the Holy Spirit rejected, because the Catholic Church rejected them and I believe that God lives in the Catholic Church and makes such decisions.

    I believe that God lives in the Catholic Church because I was baptized a Catholic and have experienced direct miracles from God, and communicated with God - and why would he do that if he objected to my religion? So my own miracles confirm my religion to me, and the miracles of my religion look, feel and sound like my own, so they fit together.

    It is going to be impossible to overcome my resistance to using Gnostic Gospels as real, or to substitute somebody else's spiritual experience for my own - that's true.
     
  6. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    You'll know them by their fruits. Catholics and Protestant, Jews and Muslims, all are judges, liars and murderers. I'll follow the spiritual path that doesn't teach such and condemns it. Even if alone in the flesh. My God doesn't teach such things. My faith is sound in my mind.
     
  7. Phantasman

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    The gnostics were taught through Paul and John.

    I sometimes wonder if the church believes the Johannines were even saved. They followed the teachings of John. Paulines followed Paul. Neither ever used the OT or other books for decades.

    Guess they were heretics and lost their souls.
     
  8. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    The fruit of the Catholic Church over the millennia has been pretty good. There have been sins and errors and terrible things also, as there have been in all adult human lives.

    In the time I have been alive, the Catholic Church has dispensed more charity, fed more starving people, treated more sick people, watered more crops, taught more children to read, raised my orphans than any other human organization, including the United States government and the United Nations.

    And we've done it using the contributions of us "judges, liars and murderers".

    So yeah, I'll stand by the fruits of the Catholic Church in my time. They are greater and more beneficial than anybody else's.

    My God saved my life, even though I barely knew him then. So I'll stick with him too.

    Please do judge Catholics on their fruits.
     
  9. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    I could be wrong... but after studying NDE accounts for many years I believe that they are an important example of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus keeping several of his promises.

    If the canonized scriptures = old wine... then some of these modern NDE accounts could perhaps be compared with new wine...... and they can assist in inspiring us to change our lives for the better.

    John 16:25

    These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."


    John 5:22

    For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

    Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Baruch Chapter 6

    [6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls." (Baruch 6:6)
     
  10. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    To me, the primary use of the NDE's is that they really do prove a detachable consciousness that continues after death. In particular, the sighted NDEs of the congenitally blind cannot be faked (those born blind never see in their dreams, but they DO see in their NDEs).
     
  11. Divide

    Divide Well-Known Member

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    What? Animals have souls? So they have to repent or their souls burn in hell? Uhh, no Brother. I believe that you're over thinking this. Animals need not repent ok? They have no redemption per se. There will be animals in heaven, probably even the beloved pets that we had on earth. But there's nothing about animals repenting in scripture. We are not equal to the animals. We are above them. You're over-thinking this. Show me a scripture which substantiates what you are saying. If you can not, then it is opinion.

    We are triune beings, created in the very image and likeness of God. God is triune. Father-Son-Holy Spirit. Man is spirit-soul-body. We are a spirit, we have a soul, and we live in a body.
    you are saying that the combination of our spirit and body makes a soul together. That is incorrect. If you can not show me a scripture to back this up, then it is your opinion.

    The spirit indeed animates the flesh. Pneuma G4151
    soul G5590
    Body G4983
    Go to your Concordance or BlueletterBible.com and look up the below posted scripture and click on these three words and read them all.

    Here is the scripture which substantiates what I am saying.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.../

    Wholly: Spirit AND soul AND body. Not spirit + body=soul. Brother, we are not a human being on a spiritual journey. We are a spirit being on a human journey. We're above the animals. Show me where animals were created in the very image and likeness of God in scripture and we can talk. Otherwise, you're over-thinking it and have formed an opinion. No offense Brother, but an erroneous opinion.

    Super hard day at work. Still doing paperwork and stuff. Can't spend much time on this tonight.
     
  12. Divide

    Divide Well-Known Member

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    Come on brother. Please answer the questions I asked you here.
     
  13. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    It is nice that you believe that. But it is not what the Hebrew says, anywhere. It's simply a traditional belief. You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. A "soul" is a breather - a union of breath and flesh. Breath, or wind, is spirit. It's one word: ruach. "Soul" is one of the English words used to translate the single word "nephesh", which means "breather". That which breathes does not HAVE a soul - we do not have souls. That which breathes IS a soul - the union of breath (which is spirit), and body. Animals and Humans - that which breathes - are souls. Souls die - the spirit separates and goes on. The body falls back to dirt. Plants don't die in Scripture, they wither or fade, because plants are not nephesh, they are not breathers. They are not souls.

    You and I are souls.

    What has gotten really screwed up in English is that the word "soul" has come to mean spirit, alongside the word spirit, so people talk of their souls and spirits being two things. With one going one place and one going another.

    That is not what the words of Scripture actually SAY. I can see you're going to dig in on this because you believe something, because you have been taught it. You don't care what the text actually SAYS, but you're going to be very insistent on quoting a couple of pieces of English from one part of the text to "prove" your point.

    You can't prove the point to me, because I know what the text says. I've been trying to show you. I suppose I could quote it directly and show you the proper meaning of the words. Would you like me to do that?

    I guess I will have to.

    As to your other questions, I'll get around to answering them at some point. Each fresh new point extends the work list. I'm not sure that there's a purpose in us going through the drill, though. You believe what you believe, for the reasons you believe it, and I do the same. I doubt you're going to substitute your scholarship for mine, and I know I'm not going to substitute mine for yours. So why would we be going through the exercise?

    Still, I suppose it would be good to do it, all the way to the bitter end, if only to demonstrate...something. I guess the depth of it.
     
  14. Divide

    Divide Well-Known Member

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    Reading and comprehension was my best subject. I can read. That you get on here and say that it doesn't mean what it says, doesn't make it so. You have strong opinions and wont even answer questions about Jesus which you use as a hammer to put down the rest of scripture...

    and you wont answer them because I could nail Jesus's words to your opinion and prove it wrong too, and you know it and that's why you wont answer those questions.! Lol.

    I had all my Jesus in a row waiting for you to agree to what you say....so I can post it. But then you'd just regurgitate the same stuff you've said. No offense but you seem to have poor comprehension. So maybe we better just drop it.
     
  15. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    The word is nephesh. It is the word that is used for animals and humans. English translations vary. It literally means "breather". It is often rendered "living soul" in English.

    There's nothing to go back and forth about on it. Animals are nephesh and humans are nephesh.

    You're right, it IS better to drop it. Communication is not really possible across the gulf.

    You gave me a list of questions. I will go back and answer them - not as an invitation to debate, but to confirm that it is true, we can't communicate.
     
  16. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Where is the friendly discussion required by forum rules? Do not attack the poster just answer the questions.
     
  17. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    (1) Do you believe that the scriptures are the inspired word of God?
    A: I think that God inspired the scriptures. He didn't inspire only the scriptures. He inspired a great many things, the scriptures included. When he inspired the men who wrote scriptures to write, they did not take dictation. When God wanted them to take dictation, he said so, as in Revelation, where he told John to write specific words. Most of scripture is not dictation. It's a man inspired by God to write something. The man wrote it. God did not. A similar case: when a man is inspired by the sunset to paint a painting. The man painted the painting, not the sunset that inspired him to do it.

    Where God, in the Scriptures, wanted to be directly quoted, he made sure that happened, by talking to the man, so that the man wrote "God said". If it doesn't say "God said", then one cannot add the words "God said" and assert that God said it. Notably, when Paul writes his copious letters, that's Paul saying thus and so. It is not Paul taking dictation from God. It's the mind of Paul, inspired by God to write a letter, just as Paul Cezanne was inspired by the sunset to paint the evening sky.

    When God wanted to speak directly, he did so, and the Bible always identifies it.

    (1A) (It doesn't sound like it. That God isn't mighty enough to get a good copy of His word into your hands throughout the centuries? That His word will never pass away? ...)
    A: It sounds to me as though you think that the Bible is an oracle, that every single word in it is a direct dictation from God. Thus, the Bible stands there and talks as God. That looks a whole lot like idolatry to me.

    (2) The way I figure it, if He can, then we should accept it all.
    A: I agree. "It all" includes the Wisdom of Solomon, the Book of Sirach, the long form of Esther, 1 and 2 Maccabees. Judith, Tobit. Do you agree?

    But I think that you probably mean something different by the word "accept" than I do. I accept that a letter written by Paul was written by Paul, that it is Paul's mind that is writing what is Paul's opinion, that Paul was inspired by God to write it, but that it is not dictated by God. I accept that God inspired to Church to choose certain ancient writings as Scripture. I don't accept that Scripture is an oracle above all other authority. And I do not accept the weird notion that every word in the Bible is of the same authority. The text itself TELLS YOU that is not so. The text makes a POINT of identifying when God is speaking directly, and those are the most authoritative part of the Bible.
    SO, for example, where Jesus says that NOTHING a man eats makes him unclear, and where the Holy Spirit shows Peter theretofore unclean food three times, and three times admonishes Peter NOT TO call unclean what God has made clean, what that MEANS is that God made all foods clean.

    So, when in Acts, the Council of Jerusalem, the Apostles, pronounce certain foods (blood products and food strangled or offered to idols) as off limits, that's those men making a human rule for the church of their time, which men can - and did - properly later change, because God's rule is directly stated: ALL food is clean for men. So it is. Men cannot undo that. And they DID not undo that at the Council of Jerusalem. It was not GOD ruling certain foods off limits, it was men - Apostles - doing it for political reasons pertaining to what men - mostly Jewish men - would or could accept.

    Blood is a staple food of various parts of the world. And Blood Sausage is perfectly legitimate food, according to God - Jesus made ALL food clean, as in all - not all except what some Apostles said. Apostles do not have the authority to overrule God, and just because Apostles are recorded in the Bible, or wrote parts of the Bible, does NOT mean that what Apostles say in the Bible overrules the parts of the Bible where God says something directly that the Apostle later overrules. Apostles cannot overrule God.

    Quick, what are men judged on, deeds or beliefs? Jesus said deeds. Paul seems to say beliefs. So, who trumps? Jesus, obviously, because he's God. "But Paul was inspired by God!" Yes, but neverthless God speaking directly is of higher authority than a man inspired by God. Where there is conflict and contradiction, which there is, then what God said out of his own mouth trumps what a man inspired by God wrote from his own inspired head. This is obvious.

    (3) If any of it is true, then it's all true. If any of it is false then all of it's false.
    A. If this were so, then it's all false. Jesus made all foods clean, and the Holy Spirit repeated that three times. But the Council of Jerusalem said some foods are not - blood-based foods being the most important (blood is the staple protein source in certain ancient cultures that live in difficult environments). There's a straight up conflict. By your standard, therefore, I may as well toss my Bible in the trash, because it's all false.

    But I say "No, the Bible identifies within itself the lesser and greater authorities. It always identifies when God speaks, and it identifies to whom God speaks. When Jesus makes all foods clean, and the Holy Spirit shows a sheet full of unclean food and tells Peter to eat three times - that's God. The Council of Jerusalem is men. God trumps men. So the Bible contradicts itself, but it contains within it the key whereby the moral truths that God is seeking to impart are conveyed.

    So, for example, when Genesis tells me that God makes men and animals nephesh - souls - that utterly wipes out all of the various arguments that anybody wants to raise to the contrary.

    Summation: I've answered your questions. We do not see things the same way, and proceed from different fundamental beliefs about things. These beliefs are irreconcilable. You have spoken the truth when you have said that there is no point in going on. We cannot agree on anything important, because we use words differently and we define them differently, and we are both absolutely certain that we're right.

    All we can do, then, is fight, and that is bothersome. So let's not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  18. Divide

    Divide Well-Known Member

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    I'm not attacking him. He is a Brother in Christ. And he has a couple erroneous ideas. I was actually trying to help (and being polite) but he has shown to be firmly opinionated and pretty much rejects to consider the possibility that he may be incorrect so I suggested that we drop it at that point, agree to disagree as they say.

    I know it's not politically correct to tell someone that their wrong. But since when it is ok to put PC above God Brother? I don't believe that I violated forum rules. I haven't been calling him names or being insulting or anything like that. Telling some that they're wrong is in no way an attack. To believe so is to be adhering to propaganda. Geez, when I was a kid me and my friends could cuss each other out, and be friends in the same 60 seconds! I know this is the age of the wimp (so to speak), so I did make sure to say...No offense, but...

    See what I mean Brother? I'm being ok. Don't get offended. Me and him is just talking. He's being cool too and agreed perhaps we should drop it. So...cheer up Brother! God bless you and yours.

    2 Thessalonians 3:15
    Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.../
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  19. Divide

    Divide Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I'm sorry Brother I missed this before. It doesn't actually say that the cherub appeared as a horse. Just that he gave someone a ride. But even so, if he did appear as a horse, he's still an Angel. They can and have appeared as men also, but they're not men either, they are still Angels.

    Or maybe Cherubs do look like a horse with wings, lol. I don't really know. All I know is they're agents of God and the good guys! Yeah!
     
  20. Divide

    Divide Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this.

    I wouldn't be so sure about that Brother. Have you looked into all of the Bible codes that they have found since the advent of computers? There is a lot of them. And there are different types of codes. One of the types of code that is used is an ELS code, or equidistant letter spacing.

    Here, Chuck Missler explains it quick and gives an excellent example.

    That is a pretty big pill to swallow that it is some sort of accident that happened in the literature. ELS would in and of itself be indicative of actual dictation. So, ponder that one Brother. :)
     
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