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Featured Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DennisTate, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. No... the demons have zero hope!

    11 vote(s)
    73.3%
  2. Yes..... Elijah must "restore all things"

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%
  3. I am not sure but I will research this further.

    3 vote(s)
    20.0%
  1. Divide

    Divide Well-Known Member

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    Easy Brother, because they do not have souls! Animals do not have souls. You wont be able to substantiate that with any scripture, that they do.

    What makes you think that we have the same nature as Angels? Post a scripture which says that Angels were created in the image and likeness of God. I've never seen one. There's scriptures that says that we are a little lower than the Angels, but I think it means in the flesh. Scripture also says that at some point, we will actually judge the Angels...so the implication is that we were created to be or at least at some point will be higher than the Angels.
     
  2. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    Do you read Hebrew?
     
  3. Divide

    Divide Well-Known Member

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    No, I sure wish you wouldn't put words in my mouth and assume a bunch of stuff about me. I didn't say that you were ignorant, or that Paul is Jesus, or insult you. I just don't want to argue with you because you're not being open minded and do seem to be coming from a position of 'well you're obviously right and I should accept that nothing in the scriptures are true except what Jesus said.' (< I did just say that).
    Do you believe that the scriptures are the inspired word of God? (It doesn't sound like it. That God isn't mighty enough to get a good copy of His word into your hands throughout the centuries? That His word will never pass away? ...) The way I figure it, if He can, then we should accept it all. If any of it is true, then it's all true. If any of it is false then all of it's false.

    Answer those, and then, because I am (open minded and academically considerate for the sake of discussion) I will try to approach this from Jesus's words since you seem to at least respect His words. Ok?

    Do you respect Jesus's words and teachings, and are you willing to at least accept all of Jesus's words, without picking and choosing what He Himself says for us to do?
     
  4. Divide

    Divide Well-Known Member

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    Not directly, but I am well versed in the use of the Concordance and the BlueletterBible.com which is a free online Concordance.

    I gotta run off to work now, running a little behind, but I'll be back tonight after work.
     
  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    But apparently some cherubs.... can appear like a horse (perhaps a horse with wings).


    Psalms 18:10 "And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind."


    Revelation 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."
     
  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    And even Pastor Rick Joyner... admits that
    he himself fell into ways of using words that he was shown in a dream
    was actually the work of the Accuser.

    I wonder was there rejoicing in front of the angels as Pastor Rick came to this
    realization?

    Could the rejoicing being done be by the Father....... who Messiah Yeshua - Jesus stated
    clearly was greater than him?


    Luke 15:10

    In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

    Pastor Rick Joyner, The Final Quest:
     
  7. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Christ brought the word of God. The Holy Spirit reveals the word of God. I follow the Word of God, heard by flesh through flesh and revealed Spirit through Spirit.

    The OT didn't have this, as the Gospel plainly dictates.
     
  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Well said!

    We have got to learn to rebel against exceptionally unwise interpretations of scripture!

    A writer named Rick Joyner reports that he was given a visionary dream of heaven in which
    he was led to deeper and deeper and deeper levels of understanding of the ways in which he
    was still somewhat in the mentality of the Accuser of the Brethren.

    I am of the belief that there was rejoicing in front of the angels of heaven as Pastor Rick....
    came to deeper levels of repentance....... and I believe he was inspired to write a book so that people like me who have made similar errors over the past forty years could learn from how Pastor Rick learned...........

    The Final Quest [English] Rick Joyner


     
  9. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    You are not seeing the spiritual message of hate and love. Mammon and God. Hate the one love the other. Hate the flesh, love the spirit. Our mothers and fathers are loved as we love our neighbors (2nd commandment). Spirit over flesh. Jesus took his spiritual mother (the Holy Spirit) over his fleshly mother (Mary). His spiritual mother led the fleshly mother. Not the other way around. Jesus said he came with a sword to divide sons and fathers, mothers and daughters, etc. It's a spiritual sword. See the spirit. The flesh confuses.

    To not hate that of the flesh is to follow two masters.
     
  10. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    When you return tonight, we will open to the place in Genesis where God creates animals and men, and the word he uses for both, "nephesh", which means "breather", and which is the word that is translated as "soul".

    Then we will flip forward to the Flood and find God drowning the breathers.

    You will not find any divergence in the use of this word that your English translators render as "souls" or "living beings" or other things. There's one Hebrew word - it is translated several ways into English. Those translations into English obscure the reality: what animals and we both are is one thing breath (which is spirit) breathed into flesh. The combination of a breath/spirit with flesh is a "breather", which is a "soul", a living being.

    In the actual Scriptures, neither animals nor men HAVE souls - we ARE souls - breathers. Breath is spirit, in both Hebrew and Greek. The actual Scriptures, particularly the Hebrew Scriptures, are much, MUCH more concrete than the complicated structure of belief that has been worked into the English by translators.

    Obviously I systematically and categorically discard every nuance inserted into the Hebrew by English translators, because none of those nuances actually really exist at all in the Scriptures. They are added elements that reflect the theological beliefs of the translators, but are not revealed by God.

    Animals and men are both described by the exact same word: breathers. Breathers is translated as "souls" SOMETIMES by English translators. The word should always be translated by the same word, because it's just one word, and just one concept. Animals and humans are exactly the same, in this regard, in Scripture. That they are not in English is a fantasy of English writers. The actual Scripture describes both men and animals as souls, because that's what we are: nephesh - breathers - breath animating flesh - spirit animating flesh.

    Animals are souls just exactly as we are. That's what is written in Scripture. There is no English Scripture. All Scripture is in Hebrew or Greek. It has been translated into other languages. Translations are not Scripture. They are interpretations of Scripture.
     
  11. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. We have two different gods and two different religions.
     
  12. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    I saw you add to the word of God (as interpreted by the English translators. I saw you add the words "as I do" twice in a quote of Jesus in which he did not say those words.

    Our gods are different, and even our scriptures are different. Don't think we can ever come to a meeting of the minds, given that.
     
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  13. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    There are no lines. Who was Baal, Bel, Bael, etc.? Who was the Prince (Ruler) of the Air?
    IMG_20171012_083823.jpg
     

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    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  14. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    Does your god require me - does he really MEAN - that I am supposed to hate my mother and father, and hate my wife, and hate my child? I see that you quoted Jesus SAYING that (and I see that you added the words "like I do" to that quote of Jesus, twice, though he did not say those words). And you seem to be echoing it here.

    Religion ultimately comes down to what you have to DO, so let me crystallize it to a simple question: to follow Jesus, do I have to hate my child?

    He said that, but did he MEAN it?

    I think he was speaking hyperbolically, and what he meant by that is what he said in Matthew 10 - we have to remember to love God MORE than we love our loved ones. That I can do.

    You seem to be saying that I must take him literally, that he said, and meant, that I must hate my child if I am to follow him.

    Do you believe that is what he meant? He SAID it, in Luke, but is that what he MEANT by those words? Is he to be taken literally on that? Yes or no?

    It's a really straightforward question.
     
  15. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    And isn't it interesting that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus sure seems to have stated that there are TWO who are greater than him?

    The Ancient of Days the Father is obviously greater than him:

    John 14:28

    “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

    But also.... .when Messiah Yeshua - Jesus stated that it was better for the Church to have the Holy Spirit
    poured out to them....... than to have him there in person....... then this sure sounds like The Holy Spirit was greater than Messiah as well?


    John 16:7

    "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

    Jhn 14:26

    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
     
  16. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    I'm lost on the "as I do" part. You must be confusing me with another debater.

    Given your moniker, I never really expected you to agree with me. I don't try to get people to agree with me. I'm fine. I present another perspective that others (than yourself) might seek out and find.

    Church doctrines are extremely strong, but their strength comes through the fear of death (and hell). To be free of such thinking is what Christs intentions were for us.

    1 John:
    There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

    To use fear as a motivator is what the false God within the OT used.
     
  17. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    Somebody else called me ignorant repeatedly. I'm not. Jesus says to turn the other cheek. I'm not good at doing that. I slapped back at the guy who called me ignorant. If I caught you in the crossfire, I'm sorry - it wasn't directed at you (unless you also called me ignorant, but if you did, I don't remember it).
     
  18. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Did God have to kill his son to prove love?

    What is this "like I do" you keep saying?
     
  19. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    Are you not Phantasman?

    I have added the emphasis to "as I do" in the quote above that you directed to me. I have capitalized the words "AS I DO", but if you look up the thread you will see that you posted that to me.

    Those three words "as I do", allegedly spoken by Jesus in the Scripture you quoted, are not in fact in the Scripture at all. This is the "AS I DO" that I am referring to so insistently.

    I assume that you did not just add those three words to the Scripture that you quoted, that you got those quotes somewhere. Trouble is, those three words in those two places - Jesus saying "hate...AS I DO", are not in the Bible at all. They are not there. Jesus didn't say that.

    So, you gave me a "quote" of Jesus that Jesus didn't say, and you asked me if I understood them, and you gave me the hint that they are spiritual.

    My problem is that you didn't quote Jesus. You quoted somebody misquoting Jesus. So I was not dealing with Jesus when I was dealing with that quote. I was dealing with somebody making Jesus say something Jesus never said.

    I focused on that because we're LITERALLY not reading the same words when we're reading Scripture. Your Scripture apparently has whole phrases in it that are not in my Scripture. Obviously I think that somebody added those words to your version of Scripture in order to make the point that Jesus was saying that he hated certain people and we were supposed to also.

    But Jesus never said those words at all, according to my Scripture.

    I don't know how we can even discuss what JESUS said when our Scriptures don't agree on the very words themselves that he is said to have said.
     
  20. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    No. He decided to do that for other reasons. Of course, God knew exactly what was happening to his Son, where his Son's spirit would go, what would happen next, that his Son's body would rise again - all of it. God didn't have to "trust" or "believe" anything, because he already knew - indeed CREATED the outcome.

    WE don't know and have no power to do anything like that. When WE lose a child, we suffer a great deal more than God did, because God knew and directed everything. When we give a child a shot, we understand that the child is in fear, but we know what the shot is, and what happens next. We're in charge, and we're calling the shots, and we understand that the shot really isn't that bad, and that everything will be all right. God was in the same position as he oversaw the crucifixion and physical death of his son, and everybody else. Jesus knew what the father knew as well - he was not in the dark and just having to TRUST the way we do when looking at our own deaths, and much moreso on the death of one of our children.

    God wasn't really losing anything when Jesus was crucified - he knew that his son was going to go through some misery and pain, but he knew everything that would happen next. Same thing with Jesus - HE knew what was going to happen next, with divine foresight.

    WE DON'T. It is MUCH harder for us to face all that, because we've been TOLD, but we don't KNOW the way that God does. We just have to TRUST, and that is MUCH MUCH harder to do, for finite beings, than what God did. It is asking more of a human parent to give up his child to death than God asked of himself when he gave Jesus up to death, because God was always in command, and saw exactly what would come next. For God, it was just a matter of enduring a short period of pain in eternity, and accepting it of his own volition - and always capable of doing something else.

    With humans, there is none of the command, none of the knowledge, none of the perspective. All we have is hope and trust. We are asked to do something much MUCH harder than what God, as a parent, was asked to do. He KNEW, and indeed CONTROLLED the fate and future of his son. We DON'T know and DON'T control, we can only believe and hope - and that is a MUCH MUCH harder thing to act upon than what God acts upon.
     
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