Should christian sex offenders only be forgiven by the church or also do jail time?

[Radagast]

Absolutely it does. No matter what the situation, if there is a superior/subordinate relationship, there can be no "consent." Even if the "subordinate" initiates the activity.

That's a point of view on morals. In most jurisdictions, that's not the law.

 

[Dave-W]

That's a point of view on morals. In most jurisdictions, that's not the law.

I understand that. But I advocate for the laws of the land to reflect that moral truth.

 

[Zoii]

Forgiveness has NOTHING to do with the perp. It has everything to do with the "victim" being open for God's healing.

Forgiving someone does NOT let them off the hook for their misdeeds in any way shape or form.

Well - Dave I know you a little now, so I recognize your views and like them. Unfortunately thats not how a lot see it. Its why i ask - When someone says you have forgiveness from the church, what does that mean and whats it impact for the congregation anjd victim?

 

[Dave-W]

- When someone says you have forgiveness from the church, what does that mean and whats it impact for the congregation anjd victim?

there has been a long standing opinion (not supported in scripture) that forgiving someone lets them off the hook for any moral or legal obligation they have for the crimes or moral breaches they have committed.

Some groups like the Amish take that so far as to actively impede law enforcement investigations into murders.

But that is NOT what the bible teaches.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Apparently, she feels that he should also receive jail or prison time, and not just being forgiven by the church alone.

Well she was almost 18 but, legally still a minor.

When he repented before the church that was a good start.

But, it seems a short jail sentence would be in order.

90 days in jail
or
52 weekends

Charges to be reduced to a misdemeanor so as to not wreck his life forever.

M-Bob

 

[Zoii]

Well she was almost 18 but, legally still a minor.

When he repented before the church that was a good start.

But, it seems a short jail sentence would be in order.

90 days in jail
or
52 weekends

Charges to be reduced to a misdemeanor so as to not wreck his life forever.

M-Bob

And Bob Id suggest it needs someone like yourself to give him a metaphorical slap around the head to tell him to wake up to himself and dont expect fellow christians to think hes a great guy for confessing what a douche he actually is. Time to break out your size 10s Bob.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

And Bob Id suggest it needs someone like yourself to give him a metaphorical slap around the head to tell him to wake up to himself and dont expect fellow christians to think shes a great guy for confessing what a douche he actually is. Time to break out your size 10s Bob.

I agree Zoii.
Besides the jail time this man needs to be counseled and mentored very closely possibly by one of the church elders.

Who comes to mind is big Elder Evan who attends our church. Evan is the biker type and weighs about 330 lbs. One would not want to try to pull the wool over Evans eyes.

I must also admit if that was my daughter I'd have to be able to slap that guy around for a little while.

That's just the way it works up top the mountain.

M-Bob

 

[Radagast]

Well she was almost 18 but, legally still a minor.

In Texas, the age of consent is 17. What he did was wrong, but it wasn't a crime in Texas.

To the best of my knowledge:

• In Arizona, California, North Dakota, New York, Oregon, Virginia, and Wisconsin, it would have been a crime.
• In Florida, Delaware, and Idaho, Utah, the age of consent is 18, but he was under the age of 24, which would have made it legal (under "close in age" exemptions)
• In Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, and New Jersey, the age of consent is normally 16, but his position as a youth group leader might have bumped the age of consent up to 18, making it a crime.
• In other states, it would have been legal.

The law seems remarkably complex. And there seems to be lobbying both to increase and to decrease the age of consent.

I agree Zoii.
Besides the jail time this man needs to be counseled and mentored very closely possibly by one of the church elders.

You do realise this event happened 20 years ago, right?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

In Texas, the age of consent is 17. What he did was wrong, but it wasn't a crime in Texas.

To the best of my knowledge:

In Arizona, California, North Dakota, New York, Oregon, Virginia, and Wisconsin, it would have been a crime.

In Florida, Delaware, and Idaho, Utah, the age of consent is 18, but he was under the age of 24, which would have made it legal.

In Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, and New Jersey, the age of consent is normally 16, but his position as a youth group leader might have bumped the age of consent up to 18, making it a crime.

In other states, it would have been legal.

The law seems remarkably complex. And there seems to be lobbying both to increase and to decrease the age of consent.

That's why I recommended light jail time and not to be charged with a felony.

I believe sometimes in California someone in this situation could be charged with a felony and have to be a registered sex offender for life. It seems that in this case that would definitely not be just.

As you have stated sometimes being over the Border can make a big difference.

Like I stated before if it was my daughter my son and I would be looking for some one-on-one time.

M-Bob

 

[Radagast]

That's why I recommended light jail time and not to be charged with a felony.

We only put people in jail if they commit a crime. They were in Texas. It wasn't a crime there.

I believe sometimes in California someone in this situation could be charged with a felony and have to be a registered sex offender for life.

I believe so.

 

[mkgal1]

I understand that. But I advocate for the laws of the land to reflect that moral truth.

In the meantime, though......if you were to have the power over a situation like this one (the Andy Savage one)....how do you believe we--as a church--should handle this where the victim (like Jules) can feel heard, understood, and given compassion so she could heal?

Also....what about Andy Savage? Should he just be removed from this church (which then leaves his lack of understanding of the severity of what he'd done to be left unaddressed)? I believe I remember seeing that he's the father of 5 young boys. With his dismissive language, I'm not confident he's going to raise those boys with an understanding of a woman's right to her own agency (in other words: I doubt they'll understand consent).

I don't think jail or being fired will change his mindset...but any ideas of what *could*? Maybe he should be mandated to view recovery meetings of victims of sexual abuse (not in person---that would be hurtful to other victims...and only with their permission). Maybe the adults of that entire congregation should go through some sort of study on the effects of sexual abuse?

 

[Dave-W]

..how do you believe we--as a church--should handle this where the victim (like Jules) can feel heard, understood, and given compassion so she could heal?

Find another congregation and provide her a good biblical counselor to promote proper healing frm those wounds.

Also....what about Andy Savage?

Before or after he gets worked over with a 2x4 in the back alley?

 

[mkgal1]

Find another congregation and provide her a good biblical counselor to promote proper healing frm those wounds.

What I'm actually asking is what that ideal congregation would look like? What would the standards be....what policies would be in place....and how would this be dealt with if it ever came up in that (ideal) congregation (or would it possibly NOT happen with the proper policies and attitudes)?

Before or after he gets worked over with a 2x4 in the back alley?

I don't believe that violence encourages change (at least not a positive change).

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Maybe the adults of that entire congregation should go through some sort of study on the effects of sexual abuse?

Seems most of those people would not need that study. On a volunteer basis okay.
M-Bob

 

[mkgal1]

Seems most of those people would not need that study. On a volunteer basis okay.
M-Bob

Anyone that's giving a standing ovation to something that merely says, "sorry 'bout that" would need it. They're going to come in contact with others that have been abused (or coerced sexually)....I would guess.

To be fair, though.....I don't believe that congregation actually knew what happened (I think it was presented as a "inappropriate sexual incident" (and left to imply a consensual ordinary kiss).

 

[Mountainmanbob]

To be fair, though.....I don't believe that congregation actually knew what happened (I think it was presented as a "inappropriate sexual incident" (and left to imply a consensual ordinary kiss).

Well it would be no ordinary kiss for this serious situation in our church. This requires much church discipline.
M-Bob

 

[mkgal1]

This requires much church discipline.

You're at a Calvary Chapel.....correct? What would the discipline be? Would it be with the hopes of restoring this guy's attitude to a genuinely more compassionate and respectful one? Or would it just be more of a punitive deterrent sort of consequence (like firing)?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

You're at a Calvary Chapel.....correct? What would the discipline be? Would it be with the hopes of restoring this guy's attitude to a genuinely more compassionate and respectful one? Or would it just be more of a punitive deterrent sort of consequence (like firing)?

I attended Calvary Chapel many years ago. Actually, a couple of different times. We now attend a Presbyterian Reformed Church. The elders handle these situations with input from the Pastor.

If I was involved I would want to see some true repentance from the guy. If not kick him out of church.

And I still believe that he should do 52 weekends in jail. That probably wakes up a few? These ones have to go turn themselves in at the jail every Friday night and get released on Sunday evening it's no piece of cake.



M-Bob

M-Bob

 

[Paidiske]

we could develop one for usag, with the coaches photo on it as well.

May I share you image and idea with my coaching and gymnastics contacts?

I would say it would need to be governmental to be really effective; that way you're not moving predators from one industry to another but all are covered.

If you want to write to your politicians about it, though (and I'd encourage you to) there's more information here: About the Check - Working With Children Check, Victoria

@Paidiske could advise. I think I recall her saying this is a requirement for ministers

Yes. Under the latest legislation, not just ministers but anyone in any leadership role in the church (such as board members, elders, and the like) or anyone in any ministry which involves children must have them. I'm currently going through the process of bringing my parish up to date, and I need 30-something people to have them in a congregation that averages 50 people in church on Sunday.

It is a requirement, and I would imagine that she has exactly such a card, because the picture I posted was from her state.

Right along with the de rigueur terrible photo.

In the US, best practice for churches actually seems to be to get insurance against sexual assault lawsuits. The insurance company will then, as a condition of insurance, provide a detailed set of rules and procedures for the church to follow. For example, no church employee should ever be alone in a car with a child. Every church employee should have that rule (and all the other rules) explained to them when they join.

I'd be wary of leaving thus up to private enterprise to manage. Can we really trust them beyond what is in their financial interest? Do they actually care about victims or potential victims as human beings?

 

[Radagast]

If I was involved I would want to see some true repentance from the guy. If not kick him out of church.

As I understand it, when he applied for his pastor job, he mentioned this episode from his past, and they were satisfied that he had truly repented.