Sheol: is it a place or a state of being?

[YahuahSaves]

Re:16:1-2:
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels,
Go your ways,
and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
And the first went,
and poured out his vial upon the earth;
and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast,
and upon them which worshipped his image.

Da:7:8:
I considered the horns,
and,
behold,
there came up among them another little horn,
before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:
and,
behold,
in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man,
and a mouth speaking great things.

Da:7:19-20:
Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast,
which was diverse from all the others,
exceeding dreadful,
whose teeth were of iron,
and his nails of brass;
which devoured,
brake in pieces,
and stamped the residue with his feet;
And of the ten horns that were in his head,
and of the other which came up,
and before whom three fell;
even of that horn that had eyes,
and a mouth that spake very great things,
whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Most of those^ have already been fulfilled.. but anyway I see you are on This Thread so I've shared some links over there if you're interested. Let's get back to the topic at hand as I don't want this thread derailed. Thanks

 

[YahuahSaves]

and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?

Not you obviously. Stop derailing my thread please.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Yes, I think that the Jewish Encyclopedia is a reliable record of their ancient beliefs and practices. Still waiting for you to show me something more credible. Think you can do that any time soon?

Your idea of "credible" and my idea of what constitutes truth are 2 completely different things, obviously.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Yep. The annihilation vs. eternal conscious punishment debate is a fascinating one that I’ve studied for many years, with well meaning and honest Christians on both sides.

I definitely come down on the ECP side.

Eternal "conscious" torment? How is it possible if humans don't have an immortal soul? Just look at this thread as an example. If the presupposition for eternal life (immortality) is to believe in God the Father, Son & Holy Spirit - and we don't have spiritual life without God, then how are non-believers going to be given immortality in order to suffer for eternity? think about it.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Eternal "conscious" torment? How is it possible if humans don't have an immortal soul? Just look at this thread as an example. If the presupposition for eternal life (immortality) is to believe in God the Father, Son & Holy Spirit - and we don't have spiritual life without God, then how are non-believers going to be given immortality in order to suffer for eternity? think about it.

who says man doesn't have an immortal soul ?

 

[Der Alte]

Your idea of "credible" and my idea of what constitutes truth are 2 completely different things, obviously.

Third request. I'll be glad to consider any source which you think is superior to the Jewish Encyclopedia as a source for credible, verifiable information about the ancient Jewish beliefs and practices. Or are you just making irrelevant noise?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Most of those^ have already been fulfilled.. but anyway I see you are on This Thread so I've shared some links over there if you're interested. Let's get back to the topic at hand as I don't want this thread derailed. Thanks

I'm not interested, thanks anyway.
Later.

 

[YahuahSaves]

who says man doesn't have an immortal soul ?

Plenty. Have a look through the answers on this thread for one.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

who says man doesn't have an immortal soul ?

Job is comforted by God when he is shown that he will be alive again, so will all the people he loved that Satan killed.
Job:14:10-15:
But man dieth,
and wasteth away:
yea,
man giveth up the ghost,
and where is he?
As the waters fail from the sea,
and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

 

[YahuahSaves]

are you just making irrelevant noise?

Perhaps that's what you're doing^

I've already stated in this thread and others that the modern Jewish language is not the same as the ancient language. I've also pointed out a majority of the "Jewish" people do not believe Jesus was (and is) the Messiah. If you want to accept a (mostly modern) source as the basis for your theology, then by all means, go ahead. No one else has to follow suit, just because you believe it is acceptable. Now please, if you aren't going to add your own viewpoint of the OP, and insist on regurgitating other people's viewpoints then maybe it's best you find a thread that's more up your alley.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Job is comforted by God when he is shown that he will be alive again,

Where in Job does it show that? Job is talking about going to the grave and not knowing if he will be resurrected.

 

[YahuahSaves]

who says man doesn't have an immortal soul ?

Scratch that last response. I forgot what thread I was on. A large majority of people believe we 1) go to the grave until resurrection or 2) believers are "caught up" to heaven after death. Many do not believe we have an immortal soul that exists beyond death, unless we are resurrected to eternal life by God himself.

Thread Here

 

[Der Alte]

Perhaps that's what you're doing^

I've already stated in this thread and others that the modern Jewish language is not the same as the ancient language. I've also pointed out a majority of the "Jewish" people do not believe Jesus was (and is) the Messiah. If you want to accept a (mostly modern) source as the basis for your theology, then by all means, go ahead. No one else has to follow suit, just because you believe it is acceptable. Now please, if you aren't going to add your own viewpoint of the OP, and insist on regurgitating other people's viewpoints then maybe it's best you find a thread that's more up your alley.

Your unsupported opinion of the Hebrew language or anything else, related to this topic, is pretty much irrelevant to anything. What the Jewish people believe about Jesus or Christianity is not relevant to anything.
My viewpoint is based on the historical evidence I can and have found. What is your viewpoint? Do you just make stuff up or do you try to review credible, verifiable historical evidence? If so, can you provide any such evidence, which refutes anything I have quoted? I am convinced you cannot.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Where in Job does it show that? Job is talking about going to the grave and not knowing if he will be resurrected.

There was no if, Job even said the heavesn would be no more and all wrath would be past. The Great White Throne is after the heavens from Ge:1 are 'removed' as well as the wrath that sent Satan to the fiery lake is past.
' till the heavens be no more, until thy wrath be past,'

Job did not know about the 1,000-year reign, but the odds are very high he will be a living witness to Satan being sent to the fiery lake:
Re:20:9-12:
And they went up on the breadth of the earth,
and compassed the camp of the saints about,
and the beloved city:
and fire came down from God out of heaven,
and devoured them.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are,
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead,
small and great,
stand before God;
and the books were opened:
and another book was opened,
which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works.

Joh:11:23-25:
Jesus saith unto her,
Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him,
I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said unto her,
I am the resurrection,
and the life:
he that believeth in me,
though he were dead,
yet shall he live:

God even pointed out where Job's friends will be building their homes in the Isa:65 new earth verses.
Job:38:31:
Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades,
or loose the bands of Orion?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Job is comforted by God when he is shown that he will be alive again, so will all the people he loved that Satan killed.
Job:14:10-15:
But man dieth,
and wasteth away:
yea,
man giveth up the ghost,
and where is he?
As the waters fail from the sea,
and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Amen see Job 19:26 below

Job 19:26
And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Amen see Job 19:26 below

Job 19:26
And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

Based on the wrath being past part, Job would be part of the ones under judgment at the end of Re:20, the Great White Throne Event. The see the face of God when He is sitting on the Throne. The Throne is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit from Ge:1:2. The throne is where the living water comes from (aka breath of life)

If Job is alive for the 1,000 years, he will see the face of God when He is sending sinful beings to the fiery lake. When you have been through that, and are not in the lake, you are one of the 'perfected people' who are sitting beside the perfected angels in the Mount Sion verses of Hebrews:12.
Adam went to sleep when he died, the 7,000 killed in the ending of Re:11 are the last people that die and sleep until the Great White Throne event. The people that die after that (2/3 of all the living) end up in hell, very much awake.
Hell is a locked cage in a prison for immortals. The prison is called 'the Pit'. The people sent to hell witness what fallen angels from Ge:6 go through 'on their last day of being alive'. The people left alive are taught about what a shepherd does in a sinless version of this earth. Both will tell the other about what they witnessed as in a shepherd/flock relationship.

 

[parousia70]

Eternal "conscious" torment? How is it possible if humans don't have an immortal soul? Just look at this thread as an example. If the presupposition for eternal life (immortality) is to believe in God the Father, Son & Holy Spirit - and we don't have spiritual life without God, then how are non-believers going to be given immortality in order to suffer for eternity? think about it.

Think about this:
How would rewarding the atheists with EXACTLY the after death annhilation they believe in, look for and happily expect, teach them that they were wrong?

 

[Der Alte]

Think about this:
How would rewarding the atheists with EXACTLY the after death annhilation they believe in, look for and happily expect, teach them that they were wrong?

@YahuahSaves
Was Jesus wrong? I don't believe so!

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Think about this:
How would rewarding the atheists with EXACTLY the after death annhilation they believe in, look for and happily expect, teach them that they were wrong?

Atheists don't believe in God so they aren't "expecting" anything but to go to the grave. That's not proving your point that there is eternal suffering.

 

[HSong]

God describes Sheol with "sleep" and "bed" imagery, so whether you see it as a place or state of being depends on if you take these verses literally or metaphorically.

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to olam life, others to shame and olam contempt.

Daniel 12:2 - Michael's Deliverance and the End Times
עוֹלָ֔ם (?ō?w?lām)
Noun - masculine singular
Strong's 5769:

The original Hebrew word for "everlasting" is correctly translated as "age lasting".

who sleep
מִיְּשֵׁנֵ֥י (m??yə????n?)
Preposition-m | Noun - masculine plural construct
Strong's 3463: Sleeping

in Sheol,
שְּׁא֣וֹל (?ə??ō?wl)
Noun - common singular
Strong's 7585: Underworld (place to which people descend at death)

PSALM 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.

if I make my bed
וְאַצִּ֖יעָה (wə??aṣ?ṣ?āh)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Hifil - Conjunctive imperfect Cohortative - first person common singular
Strong's 3331: To strew as a, surface

Why do people make a bed? To sleep on

1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord kills and he gives life, he sends down to Sheol, he can bring the dead up again.
The dead meaning all the dead brought up again.

Psalm 16:10 You will not leave my soul in Sheol.
The Lord will never leave anyone's soul in Sheol, everyone will enter into New Jerusalem!