She begs an interesting question

[Zaha Torte]

What an absurd collection of words.

-CryptoLUtheran

How so?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Your hermeneutics are off again. Galatians 5:13, Romans 13:1-7, Genesis 9:6, 1 Corinthians 14:33, Romans 12:8.

By your logic, being a Christian means living life free of legal consequences for civil disobedience. Although it is true that God is gracious, you will do well to remember that He is also a God of justice before cherry picking scripture to advance a futile argument with complete strangers on an online forum.

If you advise against debating with strangers online forum, you should follow your own advice.

It's interesting that you chose Galatians 5:13. Shall we review the whole chapter from the beginning?

Galatians 5: 1-6
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

The Old Testament lists 28 different crimes and sins punishable by the death penalty, ranging from murder to breaking the Sabbath to cursing one's parents. If we follow this law, we would also apply the death penalty to a prostitute and a rebellious child.

In 1 Corinthians 14:33, it is stated that God is not a God of confusion. But shall we review few more chapters before 14? Chapters 12 through 14 address orderly worship within the church, the appropriate use of spiritual gifts among congregants, guidelines on who should speak during church services, and the functioning of the body of Christ in unity.


You also brought up Romans 12:8. Shall we review all 8 verses ?

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. 3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a] faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.


Since chapters and verses were added to the Bible in the 13th century, some Christians reference individual verses without considering the entire book, leading to interpretations that may not align with broader biblical teachings. For example, there are verses in the Old Testament regarding the death penalty, but this does not necessarily mean the death penalty is supported by the Bible as a whole. These laws, such as those pertaining to the death penalty for rebellious children, had specific reasons in the Mosaic era. However, many of these laws and punishments have been modified or replaced under the new covenant. Polygamy and slavery were practiced by many biblical figures and prophets, but these practices are not permitted under the new covenant.

Early churches opposed the death penalty, but once Christians became rulers in Europe, they embraced it, citing Romans 13. This appears to be an instance of using the Bible to govern the masses.

 

[ViaCrucis]

How so?

So there's this book. Well, it's more of a volume of books. And this book is about this man, a Jewish man. You may have heard of Him, we are currently celebrating His birth this time of year. But maybe you haven't, His name is Jesus. And He said some things, did some things, and there's this whole book about it.

If you don't understand why what you said is absurd, perhaps you could try giving that book a read? Perhaps I could tell you more about this Jewish man and how He is relevant to the term "Christian". Just in case you are unfamiliar, which, I would hazard a guess that you are.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Oompa Loompa]

If you advise against debating with strangers online forum, you should follow your own advice.

Where did I advise against debating with strangers on an online forum. Perhaps the issue isn't hermeneutics, but perhaps reading comprehension. Do not forget that it was a public execution that brought you the gospel

 

[Hammster]

So there's this book. Well, it's more of a volume of books. And this book is about this man, a Jewish man. You may have heard of Him, we are currently celebrating His birth this time of year. But maybe you haven't, His name is Jesus. And He said some things, did some things, and there's this whole book about it.

If you don't understand why what you said is absurd, perhaps you could try giving that book a read? Perhaps I could tell you more about this Jewish man and how He is relevant to the term "Christian". Just in case you are unfamiliar, which, I would hazard a guess that you are.

-CryptoLutheran

That Jewish man said

Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
— Genesis 9:6

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

How so?

What's the difference between this politician's proposal for public execution and Missouri Executive Order 44 issued by Governor Lilburn Boggs on October 27, 1838?

Blindly following Romans 13 would justify Governor Lilburn Boggs, but we know his executive order was wrong and immoral.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Where did I advise against debating with strangers on an online forum. Perhaps the issue isn't hermeneutics, but perhaps reading comprehension. Do not forget that it was a public execution that brought you the gospel

I will disregard any insults and concentrate on the theological aspects.

Do you believe that because Christ was crucified, we should endorse the practice of crucifixion?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

That Jewish man said

Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
— Genesis 9:6

Leviticus 20:14 "If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you."

Exodus 21: 17 "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death"

Should death penalties be considered for these crimes as well? After all, they are mentioned in the Bible.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That Jewish man said

Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
— Genesis 9:6

According to St. Paul the state bears the authority of the sword to execute judgment.

But for a Christian to be happy for, and to desire public executions, that is neither justice nor about the proper administration of the sword--that is the Old Adam, the same which was incited in Cain to murder his brother Abel.

No Christian should be pleased with the death of the wicked. For God HImself has said, "Do I desire the death of the wicked?". The state rightly administers the sword; but it is an entirely different matter for someone who calls themselves "Christian" to be provoked in their passions to be enthusiastic about public execution.

Execution, whether private or public, even if justified, should create in us godly sorrow that leads us to prayer and to hope in the just God of mercy.

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in the heavens. For He makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust." - Matthew 5:44-45

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Zaha Torte]

So there's this book. Well, it's more of a volume of books. And this book is about this man, a Jewish man. You may have heard of Him, we are currently celebrating His birth this time of year. But maybe you haven't, His name is Jesus. And He said some things, did some things, and there's this whole book about it.

If you don't understand why what you said is absurd, perhaps you could try giving that book a read? Perhaps I could tell you more about this Jewish man and how He is relevant to the term "Christian". Just in case you are unfamiliar, which, I would hazard a guess that you are.

-CryptoLutheran

I think you are ignoring the vast majority of those books and the history recorded in them.

God commanded capital punishment as well as public executions and the Lord Jesus Christ did not speak out against that aspect of the Law.

 

[Zaha Torte]

What's the difference between this politician's proposal for public execution and Missouri Executive Order 44 issued by Governor Lilburn Boggs on October 27, 1838?

Blindly following Romans 13 would justify Governor Lilburn Boggs, but we know his executive order was wrong and immoral.

Yes - persecuting people is wrong. Raping people is wrong. Murdering people is wrong.

Executing a person who has been convicted of a heinous crime worthy of death in a court of law is not wrong or immoral.

I never said that we should blindly follow whatever a government commands.

You are trying to have an argument that I never agreed to have.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think you are ignoring the vast majority of those books and the history recorded in them.

God commanded capital punishment as well as public executions and the Lord Jesus Christ did not speak out against that aspect of the Law.

So the thing is that I believe in keeping a Christian understanding of the Bible. The Bible isn't merely a collection of disparate texts which we must concern with understand in and of themselves (certainly there is truth to this, it is an essential part of good exegesis to be aware of the particular context of a given text); but what is distinctively Christian in approaching these books is a particular confession about these books: These books are unified, not merely because the coexist within the same Canon; but more deeply, there is a singular unifying thread: Jesus Christ.

St. Augustine expresses this when he writes, "The Scriptures contain but one Utterance", the singular indivisible Utterance of Sacred Scripture is Jesus Christ, Himself the very Word of God (John 1:1). For Jesus Himself taught, "You search the Scriptures because in them you believe you have everlasting life, it is these which bear witness to Me." (John 5:39-40).

The Christian religion maintains that Jesus Christ is the point, the purpose, the theme, and indeed the very Word of God about whom the Scriptures are about.

This means that a Christian reading of Scripture, by necessity, is Christ-centered.

To quote Dr. Luther, "We believe the Scriptures for Christ's sake; we do not believe in Christ for Scripture's sake", and to make reference again to Fr. Martin, the Scriptures are as the manger which held the Christ-Child. We come to the Scriptures for the same reason the shepherds came to an old cave where the Child, wrapped in swaddling, was laid in a manger. Here is Christ.

If one wants to make the argument that the state has the authority to administer civil justice through the sword, you won't find me in opposition. If you want to point out that, in the Torah and, indeed, the Old Testament broadly; God commanded to use of the sword to exercise judgment; that's fine. Though I feel that it is much easier to simply acknowledge what the Holy Apostle St. Paul has written in his Epistle to the Roman Church.

But mere appeal to the right of the state to execute judgment is insufficient in addressing a Christian relationship with violence. For we have to concern ourselves with the biblical injunctions against the corrupt abuses of power; and even more importantly, with Christ Himself and what He has spoken, and which the Apostles themselves have laid down for us.

Does the right of the state to administer the sword mean that the Christian is to be favorably inclined toward death? Should we cheer when a man or woman is brought to the public square and hanged, or the guillotine; do we rejoice for the gallows? Do we say, when the wicked person has sufficiently suffered, and no life is left in their body, "Amen, thanks be to God!"?

The Apostle has said, "May this φρονείσθω be in you, which also was in Christ Jesus". This is often rendered "mind", but is more nuanced than that; it indicates sentiment, a way of thinking and feeling; we might say "disposition" or even "mindfulness" I suppose. It is a way of thinking, feeling, and being; and the Apostle says Christ's φρονείσθω should be our own; to be mindful, to have the same disposition and attitudes, as Christ?

"Who from the beginning was God in form, did not aspire to exploit being God's equal; but rather poured Himself out, assuming the form of a slave, having come in human likeness. And being found in all ways a human being He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, even more, death on the cross." (Philippians 2:6-8).

To this end, permit me again to quote the Great Doctor of the Christian Church, St. Augustine of Hippo,

"Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbor, does not yet understand them as he ought."

Even as the Holy Apostle said, "The whole of the Law is summed up in a single statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Galatians 5:14)

And also, St. John having written, "Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8).

The Scriptures are here to point us to Christ and the Way of Christ--not to justify our own peccable, erring, and fallen lusts which we mistake for morality.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hammster]

What's the difference between this politician's proposal for public execution and Missouri Executive Order 44 issued by Governor Lilburn Boggs on October 27, 1838?

Blindly following Romans 13 would justify Governor Lilburn Boggs, but we know his executive order was wrong and immoral.

We are not called to blindly follow Romans 13. But we are to follow it.

 

[Hammster]

Leviticus 20:14 "If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you."

Exodus 21: 17 "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death"

Should death penalties be considered for these crimes as well? After all, they are mentioned in the Bible.

The command in Genesis predates the law in Exodus. So no, those penalties do not apply today since we are not Israel trying to be a set apart nation.

 

[Hammster]

According to St. Paul the state bears the authority of the sword to execute judgment.

But for a Christian to be happy for, and to desire public executions, that is neither justice nor about the proper administration of the sword--that is the Old Adam, the same which was incited in Cain to murder his brother Abel.

No Christian should be pleased with the death of the wicked. For God HImself has said, "Do I desire the death of the wicked?". The state rightly administers the sword; but it is an entirely different matter for someone who calls themselves "Christian" to be provoked in their passions to be enthusiastic about public execution.

Execution, whether private or public, even if justified, should create in us godly sorrow that leads us to prayer and to hope in the just God of mercy.

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in the heavens. For He makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust." - Matthew 5:44-45

-CryptoLutheran

I see. It’s now about feelings.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I will disregard any insults and concentrate on the theological aspects.

Do you believe that because Christ was crucified, we should endorse the practice of crucifixion?

My apologies. My intention was not to insult, but to point out that you are not reading what I am posting. In all fairness, it is likely that you are confusing me with other members. Which is understandable. For example, I ask you to revisit out conversation history and show me where I endorsed the death penalty? All I said was that if you violate the laws of man, you should expect to face the legal consequences for that crime. The issue with capital punishment is not a theological, but ethical. Although it would have been both theologically and legally appropriate to stone the adulterous woman to death, Jesus emphasized mercy.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Should death penalties be considered for these crimes as well? After all, they are mentioned in the Bible.

Is God wrong for encouraging death penalties?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

My apologies. My intention was not to insult, but to point out that you are not reading what I am posting. In all fairness, it is likely that you are confusing me with other members. Which is underatandable. For example, I ask you to revisit out conversation history and show me where I endorsed the death penalty? All I said was that if you violate the laws of man, you should expect to face the legal consequences for that crime. The issue with capital punishment is not a theological, but ethical. Although it would have been both theologically and legally appropriate to stone the adulterous woman to death, Jesus emphasized mercy.

I apologize if I confused you with someone else.

Have a blessed evening.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I apologize if I confused you with someone else.

Have a blessed evening.

You too.

 

[Bradskii]

Um…okay. I haven’t read any of you posts, and have no idea why you responded to mine in that manner since there was a context to my post that you seemed to ignore.

I was explaining why we shouldn't remove all prisons. Which was the question you asked. And you obviously read my response which gave the three reasons we punish people by incarcerating them as you replied to it.