She begs an interesting question

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

The New Testament does not speak directly about capital punishment - either for or against - yet there is ample evidence in the Old Testament that God does support the practice for various offenses.

However - there are a couple examples from Paul that prove that at least he understood and taught that the faithful were to be subject to Man's laws and that Man had authority to punish offenders even to death.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." (Romans 13:1-5)

God has ordained the powers on Earth and the faithful should be subject to them and that these powers "beareth the sword" and act as a "revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" - and the faithful should not only be subject for wrath, but also for "conscience sake".

The governance of Man has been ordained by God and they can punish evil-doers - even by use of the sword (death) - and it is done as a form of "revenge" or inflicting retribution or justice - and for the sake of the conscience of the people - to preserve order.

"Then said Paul, I stand at Cæsar’s judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.

For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Cæsar." (Acts 25:10-11)

As a Roman citizen - Paul appealed to Caesar's judgment - yet he claimed that he was willing to die if he had committed any offense worthy of that punishment.

Paul understood that no Man was above the laws of the land and that there were crimes that could cause the offender to be worthy of death and that execution could be an appropriate punishment.

God has ordained Man's governments to execute judgment to preserve order and to bring justice upon the offenders and to assuage the conscience of the offended - and this could be accomplished by execution when appropriate.

I personally believe that one of the causes of the many plights we have in our society stems the fact that we are refusing more and more to execute righteous judgment and put to death those that deserve it.

Some Christians refer to Romans 13 to discuss government actions. When Paul wrote the Book of Romans, Tiberius Claudius was the Roman emperor and a pagan worshiper who claimed to be a god. Romans 13 addresses premises of obedience and living in harmony. Paul does not instruct Christians to blindly follow the government.

In Romans 13:1-5, Paul violated at least three Roman laws. When Paul wrote the Book of Romans, it was forbidden to preach to Roman citizens, yet he directed his message to them. It was also illegal to promote a monotheistic God to Roman citizens, but Paul did so. Additionally, it was against Roman law to undermine the deity of the Roman Emperor, but Paul suggested that only one true God in heaven appointed the emperor. Romans 13 is never about obedience blindly to government.

The New Testament directly addresses the death penalty. Jesus spoke the words: “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” (John 8:7) The broader theme of the New Testament suggests that although humans committed crimes deserving punishment, Jesus took upon himself the ultimate punishment, thus freeing those who committed crimes.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I personally believe that one of the causes of the many plights we have in our society stems the fact that we are refusing more and more to execute righteous judgment and put to death those that deserve it.

Do you believe that human governments are capable of executing righteous judgment? Really?

 

[Bradskii]

You were trying to claim that all rapists would become murderers if the punishment for rape was the same as murder.

You were arguing that capital punishment is not a viable deterrent to heinous crimes like rape and murder.

I made no such argument. To spell it out in simple terms, anyone who commits a crime, although they invariably think that they'll get away with it, is mentally prepared to risk the consequences if caught. So if you're robbing a bank you want to make sure that you don't kill anyone in tne process because the punishment for robbing the bank might be a few years, which you have decided to risk, but the punishment for murder might be the death penalty. Which you want to avoid.

However...if the punishment for both is the death penalty, assuming you still want to rob a bank then you lose nothing in making sure that there are no witnesses. The number of bank robberies would decrease, but the consequences of someone robbing a bank would be much more severe because killing the witnesses carries no additional risk.

It's the same with rape.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Some Christians refer to Romans 13 to discuss government actions. When Paul wrote the Book of Romans, Tiberius Claudius was the Roman emperor and a pagan worshiper who claimed to be a god. Romans 13 addresses premises of obedience and living in harmony. Paul does not instruct Christians to blindly follow the government.

In Romans 13:1-5, Paul violated at least three Roman laws. When Paul wrote the Book of Romans, it was forbidden to preach to Roman citizens, yet he directed his message to them. It was also illegal to promote a monotheistic God to Roman citizens, but Paul did so. Additionally, it was against Roman law to undermine the deity of the Roman Emperor, but Paul suggested that only one true God in heaven appointed the emperor. Romans 13 is never about obedience blindly to government.

The New Testament directly addresses the death penalty. Jesus spoke the words: “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” (John 8:7) The broader theme of the New Testament suggests that although humans committed crimes deserving punishment, Jesus took upon himself the ultimate punishment, thus freeing those who committed crimes.

That wasn't really the point that I was making.

I was making the point that the New Testament indirectly supports the ideas that there are offenses that make a person worthy of death, that Man has authority to execute those who are worthy of death and that it is for the greater good that they do so.

As to what the Lord Jesus Christ said in regard to the woman taken in adultery - you have presented a very ignorant and naive view to it - because this was not the Lord directly addressing the concept of capital punishment at all - but a specific case.

John 8:6 records the motivation of those scribes and Pharisees - "This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him."

What would they accuse Him of?

At that time Judah was subject to Roman Law - and the Romans had outlawed the death penalty for adultery, and they did not like the practice of stoning either.

So - by asking Him this question - not about capital punishment in general, but specifically the practice of stoning - they were tempting Him.

They wanted to see if He would agree with Moses and the stoning - which they could then use to make accusations against Him before the Roman authorities - or if He decided to speak against Moses and the Law - they could then try to prosecute Him before the Sanhedrin as an opposer of the Law of Moses.

It was a nasty scheme - inspired by Satan himself - and they knew that they were not asking Him this question in good faith.

Not only that - but by bringing the woman before the Lord in order to place Him in that predicament - they themselves had to violate the Law of Moses.

The Law demanded that both the woman and the man - as well as the witnesses to their sin - were to be taken before a judge.

This is what makes the Lord's response so perfect - not only in respect to that specific situation - but to His nature and message in general - that He was not sent to condemn the world (John 3:17).

So - instead of Him offending either Rome or the Sanhedrin - He instead "convicted" those malicious tricksters and violators of the Law "by their own conscience".

This is a great example of His Supremacy - that no craftiness of Satan can frustrate the works of God.

And notice also that even though this political, theological and spiritual battle - as well as the Lord's nature and message - left this woman without condemnation - the Lord did not forgive her of her sin - and He commanded her to sin no more.

Which denotes that if she continued to sin hereafter as she did before - the Lord would not condemn her - but she would be like her accusers - "convicted by [her] own conscience" - and she would leave the Lord's presence.

That is what happens to those who do not repent and seek forgiveness - they condemn themselves - go their own way - and separate themselves from God - which is Hell.

I understand why you want to focus on the "broader view" - because when you focus on the details - your argument falls apart.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I understand why you want to focus on the "broader view" - because when you focus on the details - your argument falls apart.

If you wish to discuss a broader view of the New Testament, it can be summarized as follows: According to NT teachings, every person has committed sins that warrant the penalty of death. However, Jesus Christ, who was without sin, paid the penalty for all sinners.

Yet, you think new testament justify capital punishment by government?

 

[Zaha Torte]

Do you believe that human governments are capable of executing righteous judgment? Really?

All human beings have the Light of Christ within them. No one is perfect - but as long as we are mentally accountable - we can discern Good from Evil and make righteous judgments.

 

[durangodawood]

All human beings have the Light of Christ within them. No one is perfect - but as long as we are mentally accountable - we can discern Good from Evil and make righteous judgments.

Sometime our govt makes righteous judgements. Sometimes it doesnt. I dont see this changing anytime soon.

 

[Chesterton]

I think her heart's in the right place.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

All human beings have the Light of Christ within them. No one is perfect - but as long as we are mentally accountable - we can discern Good from Evil and make righteous judgments.

"There is no one righteous, not even one" Romans 3:10

Do you believe that human governments are capable of delivering just judgments? If human governments were indeed capable of perfect justice, there would have been no need for Christ to come and sacrifice Himself on the cross. Historically, we had a government known as Israel which was intended to uphold righteousness.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I made no such argument. To spell it out in simple terms, anyone who commits a crime, although they invariably think that they'll get away with it, is mentally prepared to risk the consequences if caught. So if you're robbing a bank you want to make sure that you don't kill anyone in tne process because the punishment for robbing the bank might be a few years, which you have decided to risk, but the punishment for murder might be the death penalty. Which you want to avoid.

However...if the punishment for both is the death penalty, assuming you still want to rob a bank then you lose nothing in making sure that there are no witnesses. The number of bank robberies would decrease, but the consequences of someone robbing a bank would be much more severe because killing the witnesses carries no additional risk.

It's the same with rape.

All you did was agree with what I said.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Sometime our govt makes righteous judgements. Sometimes it doesnt. I dont see this changing anytime soon.

Neither do I. Like I said - not perfect.

 

[Zaha Torte]

"There is no one righteous, not even one" Romans 3:10

Do you believe that human governments are capable of delivering just judgments? If human governments were indeed capable of perfect justice, there would have been no need for Christ to come and sacrifice Himself on the cross. Historically, we had a government known as Israel which was intended to uphold righteousness.

I clearly stated that no one was perfect, and the Lord Jesus Christ calls His faithful to make righteous judgment,

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24)

Human governments are capable of delivering just judgments. They won't be perfect - but they are capable.

I have given very clear examples from the New Testament, and I have reasonably explained the flaws in your arguments.

 

[Bradskii]

All you did was agree with what I said.

You said this:

You were arguing that capital punishment is not a viable deterrent to heinous crimes like rape and murder.

And I, making it as simple as I could, said this:

I made no such argument....The number of bank robberies would decrease, but the consequences of someone robbing a bank would be much more severe because killing the witnesses carries no additional risk.

It's the same with rape.

I can't see as how you can not understand what I am saying. Yes, the rate of assaults would drop, but those who would still commit that crime, knowing what the punishment would be, would lose nothing in ensuring that there were no witnesses.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I clearly stated that no one was perfect, and the Lord Jesus Christ calls His faithful to make righteous judgment,

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24)

Human governments are capable of delivering just judgments. They won't be perfect - but they are capable.

I have given very clear examples from the New Testament, and I have reasonable explained the flaws in your arguments.

The fundamental issue with your explanation is that if humanity could govern righteously, then Christ's sacrifice would be unnecessary.

 

[Zaha Torte]

You said this:

And I, making it as simple as I could, said this:

I can't see as how you can not understand what I am saying. Yes, the rate of assaults would drop, but those who would still commit that crime, knowing what the punishment would be, would lose nothing in ensuring that there were no witnesses.

That is not all that I said though.

I also asked you, "Are you claiming that rapists don't care if their victim's see them if the punishment for rape is anything short of execution?"

And I also said, "You were trying to claim that all rapists would become murderers if the punishment for rape was the same as murder."

As you yourself said - the threat of execution deters people from committing murder.

Following that logic - the threat of execution would deter people from committing other crimes - like bank robberies and rape.

You are arguing - however - that even though execution works as a deterrent for murder - it somehow won't deter other crimes like bank robberies or rape.

This argument is based on the claims that rapists - for some reason - would not be deterred by the threat of death and they would no longer go to any length to obscure their identity when committing their crime.

You are agreeing with me on all points, and I don't see any data backing up your assertions.

 

[Zaha Torte]

The fundamental issue with your explanation is that if humanity could govern righteously, then Christ's sacrifice would be unnecessary.

Governing or judging righteously does not mean perfect. A righteous person is still not perfect.

We all sin and come short of the glory of God - and the insurmountable obstacle that is physical death would still separate us from Him.

If Mankind was not capable of judging righteously then the Lord Jesus Christ would not have commissioned the faithful to do just that.

We are capable of judging righteously because of what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for us all - He is the Light of Men.

Even if you were to live your life perfectly - you still would fail and be miserable forever - if not for His Atoning Sacrifice.

You are presenting very lackluster arguments.

 

[Bradskii]

You are arguing - however - that even though execution works as a deterrent for murder - it somehow won't deter other crimes like bank robberies or rape.

I literally said this:

The number of bank robberies would decrease...

And...

Yes, the rate of assaults would drop...

 

[Zaha Torte]

I literally said this:


And...

And you ignore everything else that was said.

So - if threatening rapists and murderers with death leads to less rapes and murders - what is your argument?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Governing or judging righteously does not mean perfect. A righteous person is still not perfect.

We all sin and come short of the glory of God - and the insurmountable obstacle that is physical death would still separate us from Him.

If Mankind was not capable of judging righteously then the Lord Jesus Christ would not have commissioned the faithful to do just that.

We are capable of judging righteously because of what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for us all - He is the Light of Men.

Even if you were to live your life perfectly - you still would fail and be miserable forever - if not for His Atoning Sacrifice.

You are presenting very lackluster arguments.

I fully agree that the actions of Christ have made it possible for humans to judge justly. One can rule and act justly through the grace and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
However, the history of the last 2000 years suggests that this has been achieved by only a few leaders.

 

[Bradskii]

So - if threatening rapists and murderers with death leads to less rapes and murders - what is your argument?

I made my argument. At least twice. It's your choice whether you ignore it or not.