She begs an interesting question

[Pommer]

Yes it begs the question & this is a common & confusing topic. Which way is it? Frankly, we don't know. It differs from denomination to denomination. It kind of makes sense to me that when Christ said on the cross "It is finished." Then indeed it is finished. Because to have to come back & visit again & again every event in our lives would make it seem then that epic battle was not enough. He said to his fellow crucifixants, that they would be with him in paradise that day. Makes sense. Once & for all. That is the standard. Humans can never be perfect. We have been wobbling around for 2000 years & behavior never improves for the liking. So the standard was set back then. So then what does God do with the worst among us...all the dictators or epic murderers. Well we don't know the real answer; it's not ours for the knowing. Christ would ask, what do you care, it's not your burden. Mankind does not have a good track record so it makes sense that the bar is not set real high. Christ did it so we are taken care of by grace. However, when I pondered this issue, this is how I separate it out. Institutions of faith have never conquered evil for all time. It's a constant struggle. So evil exists for all time. There is always that epic battle. The reality--we lose good people, we lose the innocent. So where do they end up? Well if they are lost to the abyss, then there would be no point. Our faith would be in vain & we are then predestined. I think where God steps in, is he knows mankind is fallible. No it's not about going thru life with a guilt conscience every step. God I remember growing up how being late for Church was considered a sin. Not exactly health for one. Actually it can be observed in the chronicle of civilization. What do all the bad guys have in common? They are very successful in extinguishing faith & human beings & much mass destruction & dividing us. Their common attribute--these individuals, by their own volition, seek to usurp the power & omniscience of God & that is a rung on the ladder one cannot tackle. That is the ultimate sin & unforgiveable. God works thru people yes but those burdens are taken with humility. The arrogance of leaders thru-out time has been well-recorded. Those souls are whom Christ evaluates for hell. It makes sense that this is the bar that separates. We often grow up thinking that every sinner ends up in hell--the common thief, the assailant, the embezzler. If that were true, then most of us don't climb out. So there is a deeper truth inside. Remember the 2 criminals that died with Christ. But the leader is held to the higher burden & most leaders, given to folly, always stumble big time. It is a difficult issue because don't forget we have many faiths & perceptions around the world. Even the story of Judas, well the Bible is wholly silent on this. Was he elected to carry this chore out? Did he or did he not repent? Was he a tool of God? The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, his fate is known only but to God. It's that difficult an issue. Certainly one of curiosity. The likes of the Herods, Caesar, Pilate, the list goes on.

Line breaks are our friends.

 

[Hammster]

Justice was reversed; the criminals were freed, and the innocent man took on all sins, paying with his own life on the cross.

“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

I guess you want to completely eliminate prisons, then.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I fully agree that the actions of Christ have made it possible for humans to judge justly. One can rule and act justly through the grace and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
However, the history of the last 2000 years suggests that this has been achieved by only a few leaders.

We can all only do the best that we can. That is all He asks of us. And if we didn't - He will judge - all is in His hands.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I made my argument. At least twice. It's your choice whether you ignore it or not.

Not ignored - just recognized as pointless.

 

[Bradskii]

I guess you want to completely eliminate prisons, then.

They serve two purposes. Firstly to protect us against those who would do us harm (until we are convinced that they are no longer a risk). And secondly as a warning to deter those who might think of doing us harm.

But as retribution? It's almost barbaric.

 

[Bradskii]

Not ignored - just recognized as pointless.

Then argue against it.

 

[Hammster]

They serve two purposes. Firstly to protect us against those who would do us harm (until we are convinced that they are no longer a risk). And secondly as a warning to deter those who might think of doing us harm.

But as retribution? It's almost barbaric.

Who brought up retribution?

 

[Zaha Torte]

Then argue against it.

I already have - executing rapists and murdered would deter rape and murder - but I will break it down some more.

I do not know for sure because I am not a criminal and I would not do such heinous things - but I would assume that anyone who wants to rob a bank, rape or murder someone - they don't commit to such an act while planning on getting caught.

This idea that threatening rapists with execution is going to lead them to murder their victims is ludicrous - because they don't plan on getting caught in the first place.

 

[Bradskii]

Who brought up retribution?

I'm sure it was me. Yes, I did. It's the third reason for punishment.

 

[Bradskii]

I already have - executing rapists and murdered would deter rape and murder...

Executing people for breaking the speed limit would deter speeding. It needs a little more consideration than you are giving it.

I do not know for sure because I am not a criminal and I would not do such heinous things - but I would assume that anyone who wants to rob a bank, rape or murder someone - they don't commit to such an act while planning on getting caught.

No, they take a risk. But they limit the chances of being caught.

This idea that threatening rapists with execution is going to lead them to murder their victims is ludicrous - because they don't plan on getting caught in the first place.

No, they limit the risk of punishment, as someone just said. But some will do more to lessen the risk if by lessening it doesn't increase the punishment.

If you have already decided to risk a death sentence for raping someone then killing them to reduce the chances of being caught doesn't add to the punishment. You have nothing more to lose. But so much more to gain.

How does that not make sense to you?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

We discussed this in another thread. Romans 13 does not give the government a blank check to impose any law it deems necessary, nor does it compel Christians to obey every government law. Death Penalty is unbiblical and immoral. I am not suggesting Christian should vandalize property to protest against the death penalty, but neither should they support it.

Part of "respecting the laws of the land" is accepting the consequences if you violate them. Ask the Daniel about that when he was being thrown with the lions.

 

[Hammster]

I'm sure it was me. Yes, I did. It's the third reason for punishment.

Um…okay. I haven’t read any of you posts, and have no idea why you responded to mine in that manner since there was a context to my post that you seemed to ignore.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Part of "respecting the laws of the land" is accepting the consequences if you violate them. Ask the Daniel about that when he was being thrown with the lions.

Despite my daily sins, my place in heaven remains secured since I accepted Jesus Christ. If accepting consequences is the Gospel's message, then Christ's death was pointless. We would all end up in hell.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I guess you want to completely eliminate prisons, then.

That plan is attributed to Jesus Christ, and I cannot take credit for it.

 

[Hammster]

That plan is attributed to Jesus Christ, and I cannot take credit for it.

You have, though, completely misunderstood scripture.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

You have, though, completely misunderstood scripture.

Thank you very much!

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Despite my daily sins, my place in heaven remains secured since I accepted Jesus Christ. If accepting consequences is the Gospel's message, then Christ's death was pointless. We would all end up in hell.

Your hermeneutics are off again. Galatians 5:13, Romans 13:1-7, Genesis 9:6, 1 Corinthians 14:33, Romans 12:8.

By your logic, being a Christian means living life free of legal consequences for civil disobedience. Although it is true that God is gracious, you will do well to remember that He is also a God of justice before cherry picking scripture to advance a futile argument with complete strangers on an online forum.

 

[Hammster]

Thank you very much!

You are welcome.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Executing people for breaking the speed limit would deter speeding.

Yes, it would - but the punishment would not fit the crime - therefore not an appropriate or just punishment.

It needs a little more consideration than you are giving it.

What needs a little more consideration?

No, they take a risk. But they limit the chances of being caught.

Yes, they limit the chances of being caught - which includes not leaving a trail of corpses to follow.

No, they limit the risk of punishment, as someone just said. But some will do more to lessen the risk if by lessening it doesn't increase the punishment.

Your argument that the only thing stopping a bank robber or a rapist from becoming a murderer is the potential punishment is baffling to me.

If you have already decided to risk a death sentence for raping someone then killing them to reduce the chances of being caught doesn't add to the punishment. You have nothing more to lose. But so much more to gain.

Believe it or not - potential punishment does not make people murderers - because they will always operate with the hope that they will not be caught.

Remember when California stopped punishing shoplifting up to a certain amount - did that increase or decrease the number of shoplifters?

How does that not make sense to you?

What doesn't make sense to me is that you have already admitted that executing rapists would deter rape - but you are still here arguing as if anything else you say matters.

I know you don't believe in objective Good and Evil - but less murder and rape is good.

 

[ViaCrucis]

As a Christian I am all for the public execution

What an absurd collection of words.

-CryptoLUtheran