Shavuot - June 12th

[Steve Petersen]

Pharisees thought 'the morrow after the sabbath' referred to the day after the first day of ULB.
Boethusians (and Sadduccees) thought that it meant the day after the weekly sabbath that falls during ULB.

Differeneces of interpretation of the passage. Doesn't mean either was being disobedient. They all agreed that the commandment should be kept; they just disagreed about the day due to the ambiguity of the Scripture.

 

[yedida]

Pharisees thought 'the morrow after the sabbath' referred to the day after the first day of ULB.
Boethusians (and Sadduccees) thought that it meant the day after the weekly sabbath that falls during ULB.

Differeneces of interpretation of the passage. Doesn't mean either was being disobedient. They all agreed that the commandment should be kept; they just disagreed about the day due to the ambiguity of the Scripture.

I let the congregation I'm worshipping with figure it out. It is very confusing the way it's written. I believe Hashem will honor whichever day we celebrate it for it is the position of our hearts that speak to Him the loudest. I honestly don't think He will punish the side that has had it wrong all this time, for both sides are attempting to honor Him in His command.

 

[TertiusC]

Pharisees thought 'the morrow after the sabbath' referred to the day after the first day of ULB.
Boethusians (and Sadduccees) thought that it meant the day after the weekly sabbath that falls during ULB.

Differeneces of interpretation of the passage. Doesn't mean either was being disobedient. They all agreed that the commandment should be kept; they just disagreed about the day due to the ambiguity of the Scripture.

I obviously don't really care if anyone thinks there is an ambiguity or not. If verse 15 is taken solely by itself then I see this ambiguity clearly. But interpretation is never one verse alone. If just verse 16 is added we remove the one part of the ambiguity and the following facts emerge.

1. Counting of the Omer starts on the 1st day of the week.
2. Shavuot is then also on the first day of the week.

My question the remains: Why observe a man made Shavuot when it should clearly be on the 1st day of the week? Observe Shavuot as YHWH has commanded.

 

[TertiusC]

I let the congregation I'm worshipping with figure it out. It is very confusing the way it's written. I believe Hashem will honor whichever day we celebrate it for it is the position of our hearts that speak to Him the loudest. I honestly don't think He will punish the side that has had it wrong all this time, for both sides are attempting to honor Him in His command.

Please tell me how it's confusing. I would love to hear your explanation, I might be wrong and then I'm missing out.

YHWH (1 Kings 8:43) has set forth the times and seasons and we need to celebrate them for when He set them forth. If our hearts say "oh I want to please YHWH" then why are we celebrating it on the wrong day and instead listening to the Rabbis? We need to listen to YHWH (Lev. 23:16) and celebrate Shavuot (His feast, not the Rabbis' feast) on His appointed time. If our heart wants to go along with others thereby pleasing men, and not YHWH then that is what YHWH sees and that is what He will bless/curse.

It saddens me deeply that so many Messianic believers (in general) just follow along with what their Jewish brethren tell them and not seek out the scriptures for themselves.

 

[ananda]

Leviticus 23:16 - Until the morrow after the 7th Sabbath.

Who else is following Leviticus 23:16 to Celebrate Shavuot on the 12th? And if not, why not?

I will be celebrating Shavuot with you on the 12th!

 

[ananda]

Please tell me how it's confusing. ..why are we celebrating it on the wrong day and instead listening to the Rabbis? We need to listen to YHWH (Lev. 23:16) and celebrate Shavuot (His feast, not the Rabbis' feast) on His appointed time. ...It saddens me deeply that so many Messianic believers (in general) just follow along with what their Jewish brethren tell them and not seek out the scriptures for themselves.

Amein! It seems clear to me that, according to Lev 23:26, Shavout cannot be the 8th or 9th as the days before are not Sabbath.

 

[cyberlizard]

You are aware of the debate, even in Jesus day, over the meaning of the words 'morrow after the sabbath?'

both the LXX and Targums indicate the Sabbath referred to is the festival Sabbath, not the weekly one.

I will be celebrating the same day as you Steve!


Steve

 

[TertiusC]

both the LXX and Targums indicate the Sabbath referred to is the festival Sabbath, not the weekly one.

I will be celebrating the same day as you Steve!


Steve

I'm all for debate, that is why I made this thread, but saying "x says so" proves nothing. Please show that what you state is in fact true instead of just stating it. Once you've done this you can also then interpret Leviticus 23:16 for us to mean that Shavuot can be any other day but the first day of the week. I do not think that the scriptures is in contradiction here. The two days in the week of the Feast of Unleavened bread were not technically Sabbaths, but days where work ceased. Only Yom Ha-Kippurim is a Sabbath among all of the feasts.

Again, I am happy to debate so before attacking what you think is the least strong point that I make, please start by proving your statement. I'd love to see where you get it from.

 

[MessianicMommy]

both the LXX and Targums indicate the Sabbath referred to is the festival Sabbath, not the weekly one.

I will be celebrating the same day as you Steve!


Steve

Agreed. We will also be keeping the same date with you two.

 

[cyberlizard]

I'm all for debate, that is why I made this thread, but saying "x says so" proves nothing. Please show that what you state is in fact true instead of just stating it. Once you've done this you can also then interpret Leviticus 23:16 for us to mean that Shavuot can be any other day but the first day of the week. I do not think that the scriptures is in contradiction here. The two days in the week of the Feast of Unleavened bread were not technically Sabbaths, but days where work ceased. Only Yom Ha-Kippurim is a Sabbath among all of the feasts.

Again, I am happy to debate so before attacking what you think is the least strong point that I make, please start by proving your statement. I'd love to see where you get it from.

Here is the translation from the New English Translation of the Septuagint, a widely accepted and authoritative translation. The passage from Leviticus 23 is detailed below...

4These are the feasts for the Lord, and they are designated, holy, those that you shall call out at their appointed time.

5In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the middle of the time approaching evening, is a pascha to the Lord.

6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread to the Lord; seven days you shall eat unleavened things.
7And the first day shall be a designated, holy one to you; you shall not do any work of service.

8And for seven days you shall present whole burnt offerings to the Lord,

and the seventh day shall be a designated holy one to you; you shall not do any work of service.

9 And the Lord spoke to Moyses, saying:
10Speak to the sons of Israel, and you shall say to them: When you enter into the land that I give you and you reap its harvest, you shall also bring a sheaf as the first fruit of your harvest to the priest.
11And he shall raise up the sheaf before the Lord, acceptable for you; on the day after the first the priest shall raise it up.
12And on the day when you bring the sheaf, you shall do a sheep a year old, without blemish, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord,
13and its sacrifice—two-tenths of choice flour prepared with oil; a sacrifice to the Lord it is, an odor of fragrance to the Lord, and its libation, one-fourth of a hina of wine.
14And you shall eat no bread or parched fresh kernels until this very day, until you yourselves offer the gifts to your God; it is a perpetual precept throughout your generations in your every settlement.

15 And from the day after the sabbaths, from the day on which you bring the sheaf of the addition, you shall count off seven whole weeks.

note Nisan 14th is technically not a Sabbath.
the 15th, first day of unleavened bread is a Sabbath
the 21st, the seventh day of unleavened bread is a Sabbath


now, either Shavu'ot is celebrated on the 7/8 June which is 50 days following the first day of unleavened bread,

or v15 could indicate that it is 50 days after the seventh day Sabbath which would still not come out at the 12th June

or if you go by the weekly Sabbath it would still not come out on the 12th June.

So how have you managed to come up with 12th June???


Steve

 

[ananda]

So how have you managed to come up with 12th June??

I can't speak for TertiusC, but here is my reasoning. First off, let's look at the weekly "Saturday" Shabbath. The first day after the Shabbath (the first day of the Omer - Lev 23:15) would be April 24 (19 Aviv). The day after the seventh Shabbath (Lev 23:16), the 50th day, Shavuot, would therefore be June 12th.

There are two problems I see when considering June 8th to be Shavuot:

1. The first day of Hag Hamatzot, April 19th (15 Aviv), is, to my knowledge, never directly called a "Shabbath" by Elohim in Scripture. Work is forbidden on the day, but it is not called "Shabbath". It is true no work is allowed on all Shabbaths. However, that does not prove the opposite, that every non-work-day are all Shabbaths.

2. Even if we read into the Scripture, and consider the prohibition against work to be a "Shabbath," Lev 23:16 says we need to count "fifty days – until the day after the seventh Sabbath" (NET). Fifty days after April 19th is June 8th. Is June 8th "the day after the seventh" Shabbath? No - June 7th, the day before, is not a Shabbath, so therefore June 8th cannot be Shavuot.

 

[Lulav]

Don't you ever wonder why HaShem was so ambiguous on this matter? Yet so specific on the first of months?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Don't you ever wonder why HaShem was so ambiguous on this matter? Yet so specific on the first of months?

No. I just write it off as different textual traditions that were melded (poorly) together. Hard to imagine God would be that confused.

 

[TertiusC]

Don't you ever wonder why HaShem was so ambiguous on this matter? Yet so specific on the first of months?

No one has yet to show why they thins ambiguous. PLEASE show me.

 

[TertiusC]

Here is the translation from the New English Translation of the Septuagint, a widely accepted and authoritative translation. The passage from Leviticus 23 is detailed below...

4These are the feasts for the Lord, and they are designated, holy, those that you shall call out at their appointed time.

5In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the middle of the time approaching evening, is a pascha to the Lord.

6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread to the Lord; seven days you shall eat unleavened things.
7And the first day shall be a designated, holy one to you; you shall not do any work of service.

8And for seven days you shall present whole burnt offerings to the Lord,

and the seventh day shall be a designated holy one to you; you shall not do any work of service.

9 And the Lord spoke to Moyses, saying:
10Speak to the sons of Israel, and you shall say to them: When you enter into the land that I give you and you reap its harvest, you shall also bring a sheaf as the first fruit of your harvest to the priest.
11And he shall raise up the sheaf before the Lord, acceptable for you; on the day after the first the priest shall raise it up.
12And on the day when you bring the sheaf, you shall do a sheep a year old, without blemish, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord,
13and its sacrifice—two-tenths of choice flour prepared with oil; a sacrifice to the Lord it is, an odor of fragrance to the Lord, and its libation, one-fourth of a hina of wine.
14And you shall eat no bread or parched fresh kernels until this very day, until you yourselves offer the gifts to your God; it is a perpetual precept throughout your generations in your every settlement.

15 And from the day after the sabbaths, from the day on which you bring the sheaf of the addition, you shall count off seven whole weeks.

note Nisan 14th is technically not a Sabbath.
the 15th, first day of unleavened bread is a Sabbath
the 21st, the seventh day of unleavened bread is a Sabbath


now, either Shavu'ot is celebrated on the 7/8 June which is 50 days following the first day of unleavened bread,

or v15 could indicate that it is 50 days after the seventh day Sabbath which would still not come out at the 12th June

or if you go by the weekly Sabbath it would still not come out on the 12th June.

So how have you managed to come up with 12th June???


Steve

Why are you leaving out verse 16 which tells us when we start counting and when it will end. This seems to be what EVERYONE is doing. Why ignore verse 16?

Add verse 16 and I'll respond if you still same question. (About June 12th)