Seventh-day Adventist's and formers discuss the Sabbath--other Sabbatarians welcome

[freeindeed2]

Well before I go hunt that down, let me tell you my personal opinion and that is the only way that all the people in the world become unified is if a force, being, leader that transcends all barriers of language, communication, culture were to appear and declare himself the "christ" and use 'miracle and wonders'.

I know a many who would drop all beliefs and go accept such a "christ" and do whatever he asked of them if he were to present himself as a "angel of light" and display wonders as a supernatural being, which Satan would have no trouble doing. Just come down here in South Florida when they see a 'appiration of the Virgin Mary' on a window, they worship it and leave offerings and declare it a 'miracle of god'.......

How much more if a "Virgin Mary" were to appear before all and declare the "angel of light" as "christ"........

I agree that there are MANY who would wonder after anything that was even suspected of being an 'angel of light', including an image of Mary on a tree trunk, window, etc. I remember the window thing. Wasn't it on a big office window or something? (I used to live in Orlando when I was a kid in academy.)

I guess I'm just wanting to know what Scriptures you would use to 'back up' EGW's statements you posted. There have been false Christ's all down through the ages. What specifically says that Satan will impersonate his second coming (almost perfectly) just before the REAL Jesus comes?

 

[freeindeed2]

The Bible says that Satan would appear as an angel of light. I didn't bring my Bible today but I'm sure that is what it says. Did you read that in your Bible Freeindeed?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I'm sure if it says it in yours it says it in mine too!

I recall something like that, but that's a FAR cry from the statements EGW makes on the topic. I don't have a problem with it so much if the Scripture clearly supports that Satan will imitate the second coming with the brilliance she describes. I just don't recall that description in Scripture.

 

[freeindeed2]

But as sure as I am standing here I am of the opinion that Satan will not pass the oportunity to present himself as a "false christ", it is his last great chance to fullfil his dream as being like God and he wont pass it up. It is his 'last hurrah'......

And I am of the opinion that he will have many "false prophets" to support his claim, some of these religious televangalists caught up in the "wonder" of his power, others completely fooled or not spiritually discerning who will tell the people, yes he is the "christ"....

1. Matthew 24:24
   For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.
   Matthew 24:23-25 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)
2. Mark 13:22
   For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.
   Mark 13:21-23 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)
3. 2 Corinthians 11:13
   For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
   2 Corinthians 11:12-14 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 11 (Whole Chapter)

Did Satan really ever have a 'chance'? He is not the nemesis of Christ who has no equals.

 

[Eila]

Did Satan really ever have a 'chance'? He is not the nemesis of Christ who has no equals.

Good point. The devil is already defeated. There is no last chance. Jesus aleady won the victory!!

 

[reddogs]

That is the whole controversy, Satan felt he was the equal, and that is the lie he used on man:

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5

..and he will do it again, it is his modes operendi, as he pretends to work "miracles and wonders" at the end.

 

[freeindeed2]

That is the whole controversy, Satan felt he was the equal, and that is the lie he used on man:

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5

..and he will do it again, it is his modes operendi, as he pretends to work "miracles and wonders" at the end.

Again, Satan is NOT the nemesis of Christ. He is NOT his counter-part. Just because you think you can say what Satan "felt" doesn't make him equal with God. He may have wanted to be, but he wasn't, nor could he be.

God is...

He is perfect and he had a perfect plan to save man and it was executed to perfection. It was never a question of whether he would fail or succeed. The 'Great Controversy' as described by EGW is not true. While Christ did suffer and die, there was never any doubt that Christ (GOD) would succeed. I don't believe that sovereign, all-powerful, perfect and holy God even had the possibility of failing. Jesus was God's final Word and he was the "exact representation of himself".

And Satan already does deceive exactly as he did in the garden. He tells people that they can be like God and save themselves, even if it's only in part. I hear many Christians repeating this original deception of Satan by claiming to save themselves by their own 'works'. It flies in the face of the saving work of Jesus Christ.

 

[Eila]

That is the whole controversy, Satan felt he was the equal, and that is the lie he used on man:

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5

..and he will do it again, it is his modes operendi, as he pretends to work "miracles and wonders" at the end.

I'm not sure how you get "Satan felt he was the equal" from that text. Is that the text that the great controversy is based on?

 

[tall73]

The topic of whether Satan will impersonate Christ is an interesting one, but it is not, that I see, directly related to the general outline in the OP of discussing the Sabbath texts. I am hoping this can stay a focused discussion as it started out.

The topic of the impersonation of Christ is an interesting one in it's own right. If you wish I could perhaps split those posts out to their own thread.

By the way, Advent Truth, thanks for taking time to go through things so thoroughly.

I may reply to your Romans 8 commentary one more time, and I might not. Thinking that over.

Is there any other evidence you want to go over at this point in Romans? (I think we are hitting Romans 14 along with Col.2 and Galatians 4 a bit later on).

Otherwise we can move to Hebrews 8, and Exodus and the nature of the old and new covenants.

 

[tall73]

I think I misunderstood you. Pleasing God has to do with making much of Him in righteousness. Not us making much of us in doing what is right.

Agreed, it is Him that so powerfully works in us. He makes use of the foolish things and the things that are not.

From being in the Adventist church, I see many who try to perform or do the law. We can't do the law without breaking it. Many in this system of works are law bearing people and not grace, forgivness, loving people. Many have no clue that Christ fulfilled the covanant of works for us. So kindly forgive me if I jumped the gun a little. Yes we are as a branch connected to the vine. Without the sap that runs from the vine into the branch, there is no growth in righteousness.

Blessing to you and sophia.

AT

Thank you, and no offense taken.

I would also ask that you consider one other element. Some who seem to be legalists are simply stressing a different side of the same coin. Not so much righteousness in themselves, but the righteousness of Christ that should shine through.

I don't mean that there are not legalistic Adventists. There are. I have had at least a couple of experiences of thinking the issue was semantics, and came to find out after laborious dialogue in the home that in fact it was not. They really were legalists. But that does not mean all Adventists are.

Those who are perfect in Christ should take on the family likeness of holiness by His power, by focusing on Him.

 

[tall73]

Alright, on to Hebrews 8 and the covenants, and you can jump back to Romans as needed:



A covenant is an agreement, with promises on both sides. We see many of them in the Bible.

It is important to note that the covenant is not the law, but the AGREEMENT that the people and God made. The covenant is the set of promises. The ten commandments are the requirements, the covenant document if you will, that the people agreed to. But they are not the covenant itself. The covenant is that of a stronger party and a weaker, and is in some ways similar to the covenants imposed on weaker nations conquered by a stronger one. They do all that the power asks or they receive punishment. If they obey, they receive blessings.


Here are the old covenant promises first:

Exo 19:3 while Moses went up to God. The LORD called to him out of the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel:
Exo 19:4 You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;
Exo 19:6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel."
Exo 19:7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people and set before them all these words that the LORD had commanded him.
Exo 19:8 All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do." And Moses reported the words of the people to the LORD.


The promises of God (in Green) were to bless the people and make them his treasured possession. The promise of the people (in red) was to obey all the Lord will do. They affirmed this more than once.

The problem is that the people continually broke their promise, and received the covanental curses rather than the blessings they would have received.

In the new covenant God still includes "the law" written in the heart. What does change is the nature of the promises. In fact the people do not make promises at all in the new covenant. God says that He Himself with write the law on their hearts and minds (Christ will live in them, and as John says His commands are not burdensome). God promises to forgive them, and be their God. He reverses all of the curses and makes the new covenant totally dependent on Himself.

So the problem with the old covenant was not the law. It was the people. They did not keep their promises. So God made all the promises, and forgave their covenant disobedience.

And He put the law back where it belonged, on the heart, not on tablets of stones.

It is a total reversal of the old covenant system, and it is all by God's doing for them.

Note what the text says:

Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The fault of the old covenant was not God's law. It is clear the fault was with the people, and with the promises of the people. Paul says the same thing in Romans 7, that the law is spiritual, but he is unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. But now that Christ came in, He lives in Paul, forgives his sin, and through the Spirit Paul fulfills the righteous requirements of the law (not for salvation, but because he has the mind of the Spirit). Christ lives out His holy life in us.

The emphasis is not on the external laws of stone, quite true. The emphasis is on Christ who both forgives our wickedness, and fulfills in us the law in a way that we never could on our own, simply looking at the external law.

Note also that both covenants are made with the house of Israel. This becomes important in later discussions.

 

[Eila]

A covenant is an agreement, with promises on both sides. We see many of them in the Bible.

It is important to note that the covenant is not the law, but the AGREEMENT that the people and God made. The covenant is the set of promises. The ten commandments are the requirements, the covenant document if you will, that the people agreed to. But they are not the covenant itself. The covenant is that of a stronger party and a weaker, and is in some ways similar to the covenants imposed on weaker nations conquered by a stronger one. They do all that the power asks or they receive punishment. If they obey, they receive blessings.

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here when you say that the 10 commandments are not the covenant. I understand what you say about the covenant being an agreement, but the 10 commandments is the agreement written down. If I make an agreement to buy an item from another person and go to a lawyer to sign a contract. The contract is the agreement written down so how could the contract not be the agreement?

Besides there are texts that specially state that the 10 commandments are the covenant:

Exodus 34:28 "Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he ate no bread and drank no water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

1 Kings 8 "21 And there I have made a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD which He made with our fathers, when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.”"

Hebrews 9:4 "which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; "

In the new covenant God still includes "the law" written in the heart.

If you are referring to the 10 commandments here then I disagree. If you are referring to the Spirit coming in filling us up with love and guiding us then I agree. The 10 commandments did not just move from stone to our heart. The Bible says that although the 10 commandments were glorious, they were a ministry of death and what we have now is even more glorious. We have the One who made the law living in us guiding us.

Even the Gentiles before Christ could have the law written on their heart so maybe this law on the heart is something more.

Romans 2 says "12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

What does change is the nature of the promises. In fact the people do not make promises at all in the new covenant. God says that He Himself with write the law on their hearts and minds (Christ will live in them, and as John says His commands are not burdensome). God promises to forgive them, and be their God. He reverses all of the curses and makes the new covenant totally dependent on Himself.

Yes! The new covenant was an agreement between God the Father and God the Son. We have access to the covenant given to Israel only by faith in Him.

So the problem with the old covenant was not the law. It was the people. They did not keep their promises. So God made all the promises, and forgave their covenant disobedience.

And He put the law back where it belonged, on the heart, not on tablets of stones.

Is the law you refer to here the 10 commandments, the law of Moses, or something else?

The fault of the old covenant was not God's law. It is clear the fault was with the people, and with the promises of the people.

I think it is important to note that the law was holy, just and good and there was no man who could keep it. The purpose of it was to point out sin until Christ came. So I guess I am saying that there was more to it than faulty promises. The couldn't have kept the law. There was no way they could keep the promise.

Paul says the same thing in Romans 7, that the law is spiritual, but he is unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Yes, as a sinful man he was not able to keep the law.

But now that Christ came in, He lives in Paul, forgives his sin, and through the Spirit Paul fulfills the righteous requirements of the law (not for salvation, but because he has the mind of the Spirit). Christ lives out His holy life in us.

Romans 13 says "10Love does no wrong to one's neighbor [it never hurts anybody]. Therefore love meets all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law."

When we come to Christ and receive the Holy Spirit we have the fullness of God dwelling in us. God is love. This law written on our hearts is love. The agape love now dwells in us. All the requirements of any law are fulfilled in love. 1 John 4 "16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him."

The emphasis is not on the external laws of stone, quite true. The emphasis is on Christ who both forgives our wickedness, and fulfills in us the law in a way that we never could on our own, simply looking at the external law.

The 10 commandments are far inferior to the new way. They were glorious, but they have passed away and now we have something better.

2 Corinthians 3 says "7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

We now have God in us. The 10 commandments were glorious, but not when compared to our present glory. Now we have the Spirit living in us.

Romans 5 says "5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

This law in our hearts is love. We have the fullness of love written on our heart. We can demonstrate this love to the world. We need to demonstrate this love to the world. With the fullness of God dwelling in us and God's love written on our heart why would anyone want to downgrade to the old agreement?

Note also that both covenants are made with the house of Israel. This becomes important in later discussions.

Yes, I agree that the new covenant was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah - the actual Israel and Judah, not it in any spiritual sense. It is only by faith that we are grafted into the covenant given to Israel.

Romans 11 "6 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. "

 

[Jimlarmore]

Please provide me one text that says the ten commandments were done away with or fulfilled at the cross. Also please show me logically how any of the ten commandments were fulfilled at the cross. I can show very easily how the ceremonial law was fulfilled and is now done away with but not the ten.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

Please provide me one text that says the ten commandments were done away with or fulfilled at the cross. Also please show me logically how any of the ten commandments were fulfilled at the cross. I can show very easily how the ceremonial law was fulfilled and is now done away with but not the ten.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

They were fulfilled at the cross because Jesus fulfilled them. He met ALL the righteous requirements of the law for us. Do you not agree that Jesus fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law?

Here are a few:

2 Corinthians 3 "7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

Colossians 2 "13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ."

Galatians 5 "16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. "

Matthew 5 "17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. "

Romans 7 "
4Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
5When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by [what] the Law [makes sin] were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs, [a]in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh), so that we bore fruit for death.
6But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life]."

Ephesians 2 "14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father."

Galatians 3 "9 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

 

[ChrisCarol]

Tall 73 wrote:

The problem is that the people continually broke their promise, and received the covanental curses rather than the blessings they would have received.

Yes it most definitely is the people. That is why God sought to do something about it.

In Jeremiah 31:31-36 He prophesied as to what would happen.

In Hebrews 8 we see​

6But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. ​

And we see from another portion of scripture what a mediator is:​

1 Timothy 2:5

5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ​

So He became the only mediator of the New Covenant thus it can never be broken.

Notice in verses:

10"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11"AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

He says Iwill, I will,I will, I will, I will,I will.

He has and I believe.

 

[Adventtruth]

The topic of whether Satan will impersonate Christ is an interesting one, but it is not, that I see, directly related to the general outline in the OP of discussing the Sabbath texts. I am hoping this can stay a focused discussion as it started out.

The topic of the impersonation of Christ is an interesting one in it's own right. If you wish I could perhaps split those posts out to their own thread.

By the way, Advent Truth, thanks for taking time to go through things so thoroughly.

I may reply to your Romans 8 commentary one more time, and I might not. Thinking that over.

Is there any other evidence you want to go over at this point in Romans? (I think we are hitting Romans 14 along with Col.2 and Galatians 4 a bit later on).

Otherwise we can move to Hebrews 8, and Exodus and the nature of the old and new covenants.

Hi Tall. Just saw this today. Well If you feel the need to reply to the Romans 8 thread thats fine but I will be going over your posting on the Covanant and will reply. Thanks.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Alright, on to Hebrews 8 and the covenants, and you can jump back to Romans as needed:



A covenant is an agreement, with promises on both sides. We see many of them in the Bible.

It is important to note that the covenant is not the law, but the AGREEMENT that the people and God made. The covenant is the set of promises. The ten commandments are the requirements, the covenant document if you will, that the people agreed to. But they are not the covenant itself. The covenant is that of a stronger party and a weaker, and is in some ways similar to the covenants imposed on weaker nations conquered by a stronger one. They do all that the power asks or they receive punishment. If they obey, they receive blessings.

Such as the Suzerainy Treaty.

Here are the old covenant promises first:

Why start here and not at Adam? Lets get a little perspective. Adam was the first to enter into a covanant of works with God.


Gen 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.


Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

The next covanant was the Noahic Covanant in Gen that we still live under today. Gen 9:11


the Next was Abraham then Israel.

Exo 19:3 while Moses went up to God. The LORD called to him out of the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel:

Exo 19:4 You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;
Exo 19:6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel."

Exo 19:7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people and set before them all these words that the LORD had commanded him.
Exo 19:8 All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do." And Moses reported the words of the people to the LORD.

The promises of God (in Green) were to bless the people and make them his treasured possession. The promise of the people (in red) was to obey all the Lord will do. They affirmed this more than once.

This covanant and Gods dealing with Israel was based on an earlier promise God made with Abraham.


(Gen 15:13) Then the LORD said to Abram, "Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years.

(Gen 15:14) But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions.

(Gen 15:15) As for yourself, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age.

(Gen 15:16) And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

The problem is that the people continually broke their promise, and received the covanental curses rather than the blessings they would have received.

Remember the blessing was to the nation as a whole. They where in a covanant of works as Nation Israel. And what was the blessing any ways?

In the new covenant God still includes "the law" written in the heart.

And what is that law on the heart? This is the point of much debate.

What does change is the nature of the promises.

Is this all you see changing between teh covanants?

In fact the people do not make promises at all in the new covenant.

Why?

God says that He Himself with write the law on their hearts and minds (Christ will live in them, and as John says His commands are not burdensome).

What are you baseing this argument on?

God promises to forgive them, and be their God. He reverses all of the curses and makes the new covenant totally dependent on Himself.

But why?

So the problem with the old covenant was not the law. It was the people. They did not keep their promises. So God made all the promises, and forgave their covenant disobedience.

But again...why? What are you baseing your argument on?

And He put the law back where it belonged, on the heart, not on tablets of stones.

So you imply that before God wrote His law on hearts of man under the new covanant, men at once had them written on there hearts? What are you basing this argument on Pastor?

It is a total reversal of the old covenant system, and it is all by God's doing for them.

So under the old covanant men had not the law on there hearts...so when did man have it written on there hearts??? You did say "And He put the law back where it belonged, on the heart, not on tablets of stones"

Note what the text says:

Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The fault of the old covenant was not God's law. It is clear the fault was with the people, and with the promises of the people. Paul says the same thing in Romans 7, that the law is spiritual, but he is unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

But now that Christ came in, He lives in Paul, forgives his sin, and through the Spirit Paul fulfills the righteous requirements of the law (not for salvation, but because he has the mind of the Spirit).

Christ lives out His holy life in us.

This passage is a hard one for many. They use it to say it is our walking in the Spirit that enables us to keep the righteous requirements of the law. I believe the righteous requirments of the law are fulfilled in us by Christ condemnation of sin in the flesh.


Look at the contrast:


Rom 8:3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.


Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us.


The righteous requirements of law could never be fulfilled in us becasue of our sin. That holds true before conversion and after conversion...we still have sin. But Christ had no sin, He was able to fulfill it in His life and it is fulfilled in us by faith alone...the walking in the Spirit is the fruit of the requirements of the law being fulfilled in us, not the cause of it...if it were, that would be works righteousness on our part, Christ fulfilled all of the works of the covanant of works for us. Once again...Christ caused us to die to the law, not to go back to it, that we would serve Him and not law.

The emphasis is not on the external laws of stone, quite true. The emphasis is on Christ who both forgives our wickedness, and fulfills in us the law in a way that we never could on our own, simply looking at the external law.

Once again...its not the walking in the Spirit that meets the righteous requirements being fulfilled in us...This Jesus did by His life...the walking is only the fruit of this and not the cause of this.

Note also that both covenants are made with the house of Israel. This becomes important in later discussions.

Yes, but both are not a theocracy. That is very important.

AT