Seventh-day Adventist's and formers discuss the Sabbath--other Sabbatarians welcome

[Sophia7]

In light of your question of the Sabbath I would like to ask:

If we are to keep the Sabbath why did Jesus not command this?

If we are to keep the Sabbath how can we be sure of the proper way to do this in a day when we can fly 1/2 way around the world and be in another sundown the same day?

Thank you for the discussion.

What Sabbatarian group were you from?

 

[ChrisCarol]

I have never been an Adventist nor a Sabbatarian. I have come to know Jesus as my Personal Savior and I am confident that He is able to do exceedingly all that He has promised. I trust Him explicitly for my Eternal Life.

I was raised in a Christian home and have not left the denomination of that home. I did find my own way which is my own personal walk with God thru several trials in my life. One was my marriage in it's early years, another the death of my daughter-in-law, my husband's near death from a heart attack of which he was shocked 14 times to bring him back 8 1/2 years ago and now only has the memory of it and my son-in-law being lead into SDA by co-workers without his wife even knowing.

Please do not say that I am bitter as others have. I have a wonderful relationship with my now ex son-in-law. I have only sought truth these last 8 1/2 years and have done that solely from my Bible.

Thank you for understanding.

 

[tall73]

I have never been an Adventist nor a Sabbatarian. I have come to know Jesus as my Personal Savior and I am confident that He is able to do exceedingly all that He has promised. I trust Him explicitly for my Eternal Life.

I was raised in a Christian home and have not left the denomination of that home. I did find my own way which is my own personal walk with God thru several trials in my life. One was my marriage in it's early years, another the death of my daughter-in-law, my husband's near death from a heart attack of which he was shocked 14 times to bring him back 8 1/2 years ago and now only has the memory of it and my son-in-law being lead into SDA by co-workers without his wife even knowing.

Please do not say that I am bitter as others have. I have a wonderful relationship with my now ex son-in-law. I have only sought truth these last 8 1/2 years and have done that solely from my Bible.

Thank you for understanding.

Welcome


I don't think you are bitter. The reason the question above was asked is that this thread is in denominational specific theology which has topics which can be limited to certain denominations. In this case the conversation was specified for Sabbatarians and former Adventists or sabbatarians.

If you would like to participate that is fine. I understand why you might wish to given your family history.

We are trying to go in-depth through the major controversial passages. Currently we have looked at texts showing Sabbath observance, Hebrews 4 and are now looking at the evidence in Romans.

As to Jesus' teaching on the Sabbath we will get to it in time. But for my part I want to keep this organized and looking at specific texts in-depth so we can get to the bottom of the issues. The reason for my limiting it to sabbatarians and former sabbatarians is that they are most familiar with the arguments, and so we can have a very focused discussion for the purpose of understanding, and possibly even persuading each other.

After Romans the tentative plan is to look at the covenants in the OT and in Hebrews 8.

After that, Colossians 2, Romans 14, etc. I am sure that we can put Jesus' teaching on the subject in there as well, and even more modern considerations. By doing it this way we can avoid jumping fom one subject to the next without thoroughly examining the first.

 

[ChrisCarol]

Now what is it that really changed here? As we will see more clearly in chapter 8, what changed is that we now serve God by His Spirit making alive our sinful nature so that we can fully obey.

What would you say we are to obey?

 

[Adventtruth]

Here is my take on Romans 7 and 8.

My contention is simply this. The law which condemned Paul, because of his sinful nature, which was external, in tablets of stone, was now in Paul's heart. He was freed from his body of death which was a slave to sin, to serve Christ freely, and was cleansed from past sin so he felt no condemnation.

My argument is that Gods law has always been on the heart or conscience of mankind from the begining. It was obscured by sin, making what was right and wrong of no effect to humans. I base my argument on Romans 1:19,20 and Romans 5:20. The bible tells us the external law entered that sin may increase. This increassing of the transgression was to make sin appear as sin, that the grace of God would be given that God would be glorified.


Now what is it that really changed here? As we will see more clearly in chapter 8, what changed is that we now serve God by His Spirit making alive our sinful nature so that we can fully obey. We never could before. And we also have forgiveness for the failures in keeping the law. Jesus is our forgiveness and our power.

This is where I have to disagree. Believers could never fully obey before and they still can't fully obey now. Our performance wont do. So what you are saying is that Jesus freed us from the law to go back to the law. The law has two ends, righteousness and curses. Jesus fulfilled them both for the justified believer. Then and only then do we have our fruit unto holiness. (Rom 6:22) Justified sinners are still condemed by the holy law of God being sinful. Jesus has to carry us...it has to be all of His doing other wise we fail. Thats why grace is so important to us.

But does this mean that the law is no longer good to follow? No, not at all. The problem was never with the law. But now we follow it not because we are under it for salvation, but because we are forgiven and made alive to God because of Jesus.

So you are saying that Jesus made us to die to the law that we can be alive to it again? No dis-respect Pastor, but This I believe is the flaw in your argument. Why do we need to follow the law if it can't save us or justify us or sanctfy us? In fact the bible says the law is weak through the flesh! (Rom 8:3)

Us following it will not bring God the glory! We are still sinful believers. If you where to walk through the front door of the house of law as a justified believer and see the law that says do not bear false witness, you would have already failed that one. So you continue to walk to the next room and see you shall not steal, you too would have failed that one. So you go to the next room and it says Keep the Sabbath day holy, well you have failed that one aswell. Justified believers will never get through that house! The only person who could walk through that house is Jesus. Our being made alive is to serve Christ not law.

I base that on Romans 7:4 (KJV) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Justifed people are dead to the law, to go serve the law? Thats not what the passage or bible teaches!
To be dead to law and free from sin is to be made alive to serve in newness of the Spirit and not of the letter!

Romans 7:6 (KJV) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

This newness of the Sirit is serving God with agape!

Romans 6:22 (KJV) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

because once we had broken it in one point, we could no longer do so.

This is why we still are not to serve law...it will continue to render death to us. None of us ever keep the law perfectly, so we are all condemned to death by it. we are to serve God through Christ that we may establish the law.

v. 1 We are free from the condemnation of our sin because of Christ Jesus. He has changed our whole relation to the law. Before we were condemned because we were under it for salvation. We had no righteousness but our own which was flawed.

v.2 Paul introduces yet another law. Let's summarize:

a. God's law, includes "do not covet"
b. law of sin and death – the rule that Paul discovered that he could not obey
c. The law of the Spirit of Life. The Holy Spirit overcomes the sinful nature.

Jesus set us free from the law of sin and death which was at work in our members. Notice, this was NOT parallel to God's law. It was the rule of sin that kept overcoming him.

It kept over coming him because he had not died to law.

v. 3 Jesus' sacrifice did what Paul could never do because of the sinful nature. He took care of Paul's sin problem, removed him from condemnation under the law, and gave him no condemnation. In so doing he also condemned sin–not the law–sin. Sin was always the problem. Not the law. Jesus kept the law, in the Spirit, not just in the letter. Thus he condemned sinful man, but also freed him by His sacrifice.

I fully agree.

v. 4 It is those who live by the Spirit of God who TRULY KEEP the law. It's requirements are "fully met" in them. Paul is arguing that it is the one who keeps the Law by the Spirit that truly keeps it. He is not arguing that they don't keep it.

I have to disagre here. I am arguing that Christ condemned sin in the flesh that the requirement of the law (righteousness) might be fulfilled in us who walk by the spirit. This is my argument: that the righteousness or requirement of the law is Christ-eexulting love.[b/] I base thjis on passges such as

Romans 13:8-10 (KJV) 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this,(love) Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14 (KJV) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

God has freed us from our sin, freed us from keeping the law for salvation, which we couldn't do. And He has also given us new power to keep the law the way it should always have been kept–from the heart. Paul is saying that in Christ the law is now RE-INTERNALIZED as it was always meant to be. Not tablets that condemn, but the Spirit of Christ living in us that empowers.

So it is true, the external tablets are no longer our focus. In fact, the law itself is not our focus. The focus is on Christ who forgives us, lives in us, and who makes our dead sinful nature alive by His Spirit.

This is where you and I are not close at all.

You seem to be saying that we still follow the ten commandments. But the bible does not tell us such. We are to serve in love, in this way we establish or fulfill the law. There is a difference. You believe God frees us from law to go back to law. You teach justified believers have a sinful flesh made alive! You show no biblical proof for this.

This is the goal of the law:

1 Timothy 1:5 (KJV) Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Its love. NOt commandment keeping.

the law is not for the justified believer to follow after, it only points out your sin and condemns.

1 Timothy 1:9 (KJV) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

RO 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

v. 5 There is a total difference between Paul in his previous life, with his mind fixated on the law's requirements, his faults, the desires of the flesh, and his later life, focused on Christ and His Spirit.

The Christian's mind is transformed to focus on Christ, seated above. To fix itself on heavenly things. The law in internalized, as it was meant to be. No wonder Paul considered his legalistic righteousness as rubbish.

Sorry but the mind of the Spirit is agape love! NOt you doing law!



v.10-11 We still have the sinful nature, but the Spirit of God will "also give life to" our "mortal bodies through His Spirit." In other words, God's Spirit has overcome our sinful nature, allowing us to please God.

We are not only forgiven, we are given new power to please God, not for salvation, but for HIM. It is internalized.

The bible teaches that we are to reckon ourselves alive to God and to Reckon ourselves as dead to sin.

Romans 6:10-12 (KJV) 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Now the following quote is the heart of all you have written Pastor


In other words, God's Spirit has overcome our sinful nature, allowing us to please God.

We are not only forgiven, we are given new power to please God, not for salvation, but for HIM. It is internalized.

You are saying that our performance is what pleases God, but not for salvation. This is what many SDA's teach. This is by works that you try to please God. This is not of faith pastor but sin and useless in your walk with Him.

v. 12-13 We DO have an obligation to not live according to the sinful nature, but to put to death the misdeeds (sins) of the body. We are still keeping the law, but not in the old way. The focus is not on the law, however, but on Christ who is our forgiveness, and power.

v. 14-17 We have a new outlook, a new Spirit, a new hope. We are no longer condemned by sin and afraid of God. We rejoice that we are sons, who serve out of love.

Our focus is to treasure Chist above all things. Our service is indeed to love as Christ asked us to love and not to follow law at any point, in doing so we fail because we can never live up to law by giving it service...Instead God has place His love law in our Hearts and by this we establish the law.

AT

 

[tall73]

My contention is simply this. The law which condemned Paul, because of his sinful nature, which was external, in tablets of stone, was now in Paul's heart. He was freed from his body of death which was a slave to sin, to serve Christ freely, and was cleansed from past sin so he felt no condemnation.


My argument is that Gods law has always been on the heart or conscience of mankind from the begining. It was obscured by sin, making what was right and wrong of no effect to humans. I base my argument on Romans 1:19,20 and Romans 5:20. The bible tells us the external law entered that sin may increase. This increassing of the transgression was to make sin appear as sin, that the grace of God would be given that God would be glorified.

Yes, actually I completely agree with that. The written law was introudced at sinai because of the obscuring by sin in the hearts of men. It was to point them back for a need of grace. God's goal is to get back to the law on the heart.

Now what is it that really changed here? As we will see more clearly in chapter 8, what changed is that we now serve God by His Spirit making alive our sinful nature so that we can fully obey. We never could before. And we also have forgiveness for the failures in keeping the law. Jesus is our forgiveness and our power.

This is where I have to disagree. Believers could never fully obey before and they still can't fully obey now. Our performance wont do. So what you are saying is that Jesus freed us from the law to go back to the law. The law has two ends, righteousness and curses. Jesus fulfilled them both for the justified believer. Then and only then do we have our fruit unto holiness. (Rom 6:22) Justified sinners are still condemed by the holy law of God being sinful. Jesus has to carry us...it has to be all of His doing other wise we fail. Thats why grace is so important to us.

A. I did not say we are dependent on the law for salvation. Therefore it is not about performance. It is about Christ living in us.

B. It is Christ doing it for us. It is only as we walk by the Spirit that we show the fruits of the Spirit.

C. Paul says the righteous requirements of the law are fully met in us. So I do believe it is possible for Christ to make us righteous. But the righteous requirements of the law go far beyond the written. And again, this is not to say that Christians will not ever sin or mess up. Christ has both paid for our sins and wants to make us more like Him.

But does this mean that the law is no longer good to follow? No, not at all. The problem was never with the law. But now we follow it not because we are under it for salvation, but because we are forgiven and made alive to God because of Jesus.

So you are saying that Jesus made us to die to the law that we can be alive to it again? No dis-respect Pastor, but This I believe is the flaw in your argument. Why do we need to follow the law if it can't save us or justify us or sanctfy us? In fact the bible says the law is weak through the flesh! (Rom 8:3)

Actually no, we don't follow the law as such, but the law written on the heart, of Christ living in us, which goes beyond the written law to the far reaching principles of it.

And as to the law being weak through the flesh...of course. That is why Paul goes on for some length in chapter 8 saying that the Spirit can overcome our weak flesh.

Us following it will not bring God the glory! We are still sinful believers. If you where to walk through the front door of the house of law as a justified believer and see the law that says do not bear false witness, you would have already failed that one. So you continue to walk to the next room and see you shall not steal, you too would have failed that one. So you go to the next room and it says Keep the Sabbath day holy, well you have failed that one aswell. Justified believers will never get through that house! The only person who could walk through that house is Jesus. Our being made alive is to serve Christ not law.

Again, who said you are back under the law for salvation? I did not. Nor would it be glorifying God if it was us doing something. God's glory is that He was pleased to accept us worthless sinners and is our only hope for salvation, and is even able to bring about something good from us.

I base that on Romans 7:4 (KJV) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

EXACTLY. We are dead to the law, married to Christ and He bears fruit in us.

Justifed people are dead to the law, to go serve the law? Thats not what the passage or bible teaches!
To be dead to law and free from sin is to be made alive to serve in newness of the Spirit and not of the letter!

That is not what I teach either But Paul said that Christ living in us fully meets the righteous requirements of the law, did he not?

Romans 7:6 (KJV) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

This newness of the Sirit is serving God with agape!

Romans 6:22 (KJV) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Yup.

because once we had broken it in one point, we could no longer do so.

This is why we still are not to serve law...it will continue to render death to us. None of us ever keep the law perfectly, so we are all condemned to death by it. we are to serve God through Christ that we may establish the law.

Agreed.

v. 1 We are free from the condemnation of our sin because of Christ Jesus. He has changed our whole relation to the law. Before we were condemned because we were under it for salvation. We had no righteousness but our own which was flawed.

v.2 Paul introduces yet another law. Let's summarize:

a. God's law, includes "do not covet"
b. law of sin and death – the rule that Paul discovered that he could not obey
c. The law of the Spirit of Life. The Holy Spirit overcomes the sinful nature.

Jesus set us free from the law of sin and death which was at work in our members. Notice, this was NOT parallel to God's law. It was the rule of sin that kept overcoming him.

It kept over coming him because he had not died to law.

It kept overcoming him because he is a sinful creature with no righteousness of his own. Only Christ can keep it. So in that sense it is not the death to the law as such, but the life to Christ that makes the difference. But one is a pre-condition of the other.

v. 3 Jesus' sacrifice did what Paul could never do because of the sinful nature. He took care of Paul's sin problem, removed him from condemnation under the law, and gave him no condemnation. In so doing he also condemned sin–not the law–sin. Sin was always the problem. Not the law. Jesus kept the law, in the Spirit, not just in the letter. Thus he condemned sinful man, but also freed him by His sacrifice.

I fully agree.

v. 4 It is those who live by the Spirit of God who TRULY KEEP the law. It's requirements are "fully met" in them. Paul is arguing that it is the one who keeps the Law by the Spirit that truly keeps it. He is not arguing that they don't keep it.

I have to disagre here. I am arguing that Christ condemned sin in the flesh that the requirement of the law (righteousness) might be fulfilled in us who walk by the spirit. This is my argument: that the righteousness or requirement of the law is Christ-eexulting love.[b/] I base thjis on passges such as

Romans 13:8-10 (KJV) 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this,(love) Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14 (KJV) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Indeed, but remember that in both these statements and the similar summary statements of Jesus (law and prophets hanging, etc.). the point was that love is the epitome of even the OT law. But by this Jesus did not say He was doing away with the law ,but fillfilling it. He fulfilled those parts that referred to the sacrifices, etc. and wrote the law on the heart, according to Hebrews 8, but that is our next text, so no point in getting into that now.

Also note that those two statements both refer to only the portion of the law dealing with our neighbor, therefore their bearing on our current conversation might be limited.

God has freed us from our sin, freed us from keeping the law for salvation, which we couldn't do. And He has also given us new power to keep the law the way it should always have been kept–from the heart. Paul is saying that in Christ the law is now RE-INTERNALIZED as it was always meant to be. Not tablets that condemn, but the Spirit of Christ living in us that empowers.

So it is true, the external tablets are no longer our focus. In fact, the law itself is not our focus. The focus is on Christ who forgives us, lives in us, and who makes our dead sinful nature alive by His Spirit.

This is where you and I are not close at all.

You seem to be saying that we still follow the ten commandments. But the bible does not tell us such. We are to serve in love, in this way we establish or fulfill the law. There is a difference. You believe God frees us from law to go back to law. You teach justified believers have a sinful flesh made alive! You show no biblical proof for this.

A. Not returning to the law, but to Christ who fulfills the law. And the law here is clear as the antecedant in chapter 7 which he is still referring to in this case is the 10 commandments at least, since he mentions specifically not coveting.

B. And as for the commandments no longer being a factor...notice what James says. We can look at it in more detail later of course:

Jam 2:1 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
Jam 2:2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in,
Jam 2:3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "You sit here in a good place," while you say to the poor man, "You stand over there," or, "Sit down at my feet,"
Jam 2:4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
Jam 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
Jam 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?
Jam 2:7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?
Jam 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
Jam 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
Jam 2:11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.

Here James makes mention both of the "royal" law, "love your neighbor" and of the 10 commandments "do not commit adultery" and "do not commit murder." The believer is to live out the first. But when he turns away from this he is convicted by the second.

The ten commandments have not left. They still convict. But the goal is Christ in you loving your neighbor.

Now does that mean the Christian who sins and is convicted is now guilty or loses salvation? Not at all. We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

C. As for You teach justified believers have a sinful flesh made alive!

I teach that we have sinful flesh, but that Christ making our Spirit alive, still enables us to be righteous as He lives through us.

As to the flesh part, actually I need to re-write that, because I have since changed my view on that, having written it some time back. I was looking at a poor translation, and later consulted the Greek which made it clear. I agree that the the flesh remains sinful. The Spirit however enables us to be righteous.

The part that is raised to life is the σωμα, not the σαρξ.

I will edit that in my saved copy to remove further confusion. But you are right to be concerned about that. Just think, I was a holy flesh Adventist for a wihle! Never did any barking or holy laughter though (Sorry, bit of poor Adventist humor).

This is the goal of the law:

1 Timothy 1:5 (KJV) Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Its love. NOt commandment keeping.

the law is not for the justified believer to follow after, it only points out your sin and condemns.

I agree, but it does in fact still point out sin and condemn. It is not done away with. But instead the Christian naturally follows Christ in love.

1 Timothy 1:9 (KJV) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

I agree with this too.

RO 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

v. 5 There is a total difference between Paul in his previous life, with his mind fixated on the law's requirements, his faults, the desires of the flesh, and his later life, focused on Christ and His Spirit.

The Christian's mind is transformed to focus on Christ, seated above. To fix itself on heavenly things. The law in internalized, as it was meant to be. No wonder Paul considered his legalistic righteousness as rubbish.

Sorry but the mind of the Spirit is agape love! NOt you doing law!

Both Paul here, and James as noted above, say that if you keep the royal law of love you are not breaking the commandments. Therefore, it would seem that love does indeed meet the requirements of the law, and goes beyond it. It is not focus on the law, but one cannot meet the righteous requirements without in fact meeting the requirements. The requirements are all quite plain, as Paul spelled out in chapter 7, he could not meet them. Now the Spirit does.

v.10-11 We still have the sinful nature, but the Spirit of God will "also give life to" our "mortal bodies through His Spirit." In other words, God's Spirit has overcome our sinful nature, allowing us to please God.

We are not only forgiven, we are given new power to please God, not for salvation, but for HIM. It is internalized.

The bible teaches that we are to reckon ourselves alive to God and to Reckon ourselves as dead to sin.

yes

In other words, God's Spirit has overcome our sinful nature, allowing us to please God.

We are not only forgiven, we are given new power to please God, not for salvation, but for HIM. It is internalized.

You are saying that our performance is what pleases God, but not for salvation. This is what many SDA's teach. This is by works that you try to please God. This is not of faith pastor but sin and useless in your walk with Him.

Please note that I am not in fact saying it has anything to do with salavation. But I have no doubt that righteousness pleases God. And it is all His doing, not ours. Therefore I fail to see how that in anyway harms the gospel. God is ultimately pleased with the sacrifice of Chrst. And as Hebrews puts it:

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

We are perfect in Christ. But Christ also wants sanctification. Do you not think that Christ is indeed pleased to see growth as we rely on Him? I certianly accept my child no matter what. But I am pleased to see him learn righteousness, to be like Christ, no matter how faultering that progress may be.

I see no denial in the gospel in affirming that Christ not only forgives but bears fruit in us, and is well pleased with both.

v. 12-13 We DO have an obligation to not live according to the sinful nature, but to put to death the misdeeds (sins) of the body. We are still keeping the law, but not in the old way. The focus is not on the law, however, but on Christ who is our forgiveness, and power.

v. 14-17 We have a new outlook, a new Spirit, a new hope. We are no longer condemned by sin and afraid of God. We rejoice that we are sons, who serve out of love.

Our focus is to treasure Chist above all things. Our service is indeed to love as Christ asked us to love and not to follow law at any point, in doing so we fail because we can never live up to law by giving it service...Instead God has place His love law in our Hearts and by this we establish the law.

AT

I never once argued that the law was not written on the heart or focused on Christ, quite the opposite. But if the requirements are fully met, then do you somehow think that means not fully met?

I don't at all. Christ is well pleased to be both our righteousness and our sanctification. In no way do we get the credit for either because we are completely incapable of either.

 

[Eila]

I teach that we have sinful flesh, but that Christ making our Spirit alive, still enables us to be righteous as He lives through us.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. I didn't think you believed you had a spirit. But then you said Spirit so can you clarify what you mean here?

 

[tall73]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. I didn't think you believed you had a spirit. But then you said Spirit so can you clarify what you mean here?

I think the Bible says that we have a spirit.

Did I mention otherwise? Though I have pointed out that what people often associate with the spirit that returns to God is usually a reference to breath, not spirit. The word is fairly flexible in usage. I do believe that man is a unity, not separately existing entities.

 

[Eila]

I think the Bible says that we have a spirit.

Did I mention otherwise? Though I have pointed out that what people often associate with the spirit that returns to God is usually a reference to breath, not spirit. The word is fairly flexible in usage. I do believe that man is a unity, not separately existing entities.

I'm sorry, I'm still a little confused. When you said "our Spirit" were you referring to your breath or something else?

 

[tall73]

I'm sorry, I'm still a little confused. When you said "our Spirit" were you referring to your breath or something else?

Something different. However, I am not wanting to side track this thread. so we may need to start a death one at some point here as well.

 

[Adventtruth]

A. I did not say we are dependent on the law for salvation. Therefore it is not about performance. It is about Christ living in us.

Yes Christ lives in us, but His living in us will produce fruits of the Spirit. We establish the law not follow after it. Rom 3:31

B. It is Christ doing it for us. It is only as we walk by the Spirit that we show the fruits of the Spirit.

This is very much different from following afte the law.

C. Paul says the righteous requirements of the law are fully met in us. So I do believe it is possible for Christ to make us righteous. But the righteous requirements of the law go far beyond the written. And again, this is not to say that Christians will not ever sin or mess up. Christ has both paid for our sins and wants to make us more like Him.

And what is this making us more like Him? Is it a making more perfect?

Again, who said you are back under the law for salvation? I did not. Nor would it be glorifying God if it was us doing something. God's glory is that He was pleased to accept us worthless sinners and is our only hope for salvation, and is even able to bring about something good from us.

But are you saying we are back under the law? And for what reasons?

Indeed, but remember that in both these statements and the similar summary statements of Jesus (law and prophets hanging, etc.). the point was that love is the epitome of even the OT law. But by this Jesus did not say He was doing away with the law ,but fillfilling it. He fulfilled those parts that referred to the sacrifices, etc. and wrote the law on the heart, according to Hebrews 8, but that is our next text, so no point in getting into that now.

I agree that the law of works is not abolished but fulfilled in Christ...all of it. Those who are not believers are still under this law of works and have the curse for dis-obedience...breaking the covanant.

I also believe that every human has the understanding or principle of right and wrong built into him...bread in him, made apart of him, by the Creator. It has become obscured by sin, but under the New Covanant God has givien us, justified believers...of the Spirit that we may have a renewed focus and passion about righteousness. This is the Spirits direction that us justified believers follow. Not that God wrote some 613 laws or even 10 words upon our hearts and programmed us like robots to do them.

A. Not returning to the law, but to Christ who fulfills the law. And the law here is clear as the antecedant in chapter 7 which he is still referring to in this case is the 10 commandments at least, since he mentions specifically not coveting.

I agree we are to belong to Christ and not law.

B. And as for the commandments no longer being a factor...notice what James says. We can look at it in more detail later of course:

The commandments will do nothing but put us to death.

Jam 2:1 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
Jam 2:2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in,
Jam 2:3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "You sit here in a good place," while you say to the poor man, "You stand over there," or, "Sit down at my feet,"
Jam 2:4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
Jam 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
Jam 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?
Jam 2:7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?
Jam 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
Jam 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
Jam 2:11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.

Here James makes mention both of the "royal" law, "love your neighbor" and of the 10 commandments "do not commit adultery" and "do not commit murder." The believer is to live out the first. But when he turns away from this he is convicted by the second.

The ten commandments have not left. They still convict. But the goal is Christ in you loving your neighbor.

Now does that mean the Christian who sins and is convicted is now guilty or loses salvation? Not at all. We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

So you teach the third use of the law? I believe the bible teaches that the Spirit will convict the justified believer of sin. I base my argument on John 16.

C. As for You teach justified believers have a sinful flesh made alive!

I teach that we have sinful flesh, but that Christ making our Spirit alive, still enables us to be righteous as He lives through us.

As to the flesh part, actually I need to re-write that, because I have since changed my view on that, having written it some time back. I was looking at a poor translation, and later consulted the Greek which made it clear. I agree that the the flesh remains sinful. The Spirit however enables us to be righteous.

Thanks pastor...you have shown that you are willing to change. I have changed my views many times aswell. As believers wanting truth, God helps us to grow in our understanding of Him.

The part that is raised to life is the σωμα, not the σαρξ.

I will edit that in my saved copy to remove further confusion. But you are right to be concerned about that. Just think, I was a holy flesh Adventist for a wihle! Never did any barking or holy laughter though (Sorry, bit of poor Adventist humor).

Hey I can relate! Rodney Howard Brown and the Toronto Blessing! LOL!

Please note that I am not in fact saying it has anything to do with salavation. But I have no doubt that righteousness pleases God. And it is all His doing, not ours. Therefore I fail to see how that in anyway harms the gospel. God is ultimately pleased with the sacrifice of Chrst. And as Hebrews puts it:[/color]

I think I misunderstood you. Pleasing God has to do with making much of Him in righteousness. Not us making much of us in doing what is right.

We are perfect in Christ. But Christ also wants sanctification. Do you not think that Christ is indeed pleased to see growth as we rely on Him? I certianly accept my child no matter what. But I am pleased to see him learn righteousness, to be like Christ, no matter how faultering that progress may be.

I see no denial in the gospel in affirming that Christ not only forgives but bears fruit in us, and is well pleased with both.

From being in the Adventist church, I see many who try to perform or do the law. We can't do the law without breaking it. Many in this system of works are law bearing people and not grace, forgivness, loving people. Many have no clue that Christ fulfilled the covanant of works for us. So kindly forgive me if I jumped the gun a little. Yes we are as a branch connected to the vine. Without the sap that runs from the vine into the branch, there is no growth in righteousness.

Blessing to you and sophia.

AT

 

[reddogs]

I was thinking about why Sunday would assume such an critical importance that it would be a clear choice that everyone would have to make in the end times, when I came across this and now its very clear:

As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ. The church has long professed to look to the Saviour's advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. In different parts of the earth, Satan will manifest himself among men as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation. (Rev. 1:13-15). The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out upon the air: "Christ has come! Christ has come!" {LDE 163.2}

The people prostrate themselves in adoration before him, while he lifts up his hands and pronounces a blessing upon them, as Christ blessed His disciples when He was upon the earth. His voice is soft and subdued, yet full of melody. In gentle, compassionate tones he presents some of the same gracious, heavenly truths which the Saviour uttered; he heals the diseases of the people, and then, in his assumed character of Christ, he claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and commands all to hallow the day which he has blessed.--GC 624 (1911). {LDE 163.3}

 

[freeindeed2]

I was thinking about why Sunday would assume such an critical importance that it would be a clear choice that everyone would have to make in the end times, when I came across this and now its very clear:

As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ. The church has long professed to look to the Saviour's advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. In different parts of the earth, Satan will manifest himself among men as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation. (Rev. 1:13-15). The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out upon the air: "Christ has come! Christ has come!" {LDE 163.2}

The people prostrate themselves in adoration before him, while he lifts up his hands and pronounces a blessing upon them, as Christ blessed His disciples when He was upon the earth. His voice is soft and subdued, yet full of melody. In gentle, compassionate tones he presents some of the same gracious, heavenly truths which the Saviour uttered; he heals the diseases of the people, and then, in his assumed character of Christ, he claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and commands all to hallow the day which he has blessed.--GC 624 (1911). {LDE 163.3}

What Scripture do you use to support this?

 

[reddogs]

Maybe you can help me, the one on "false Christs"...

 

[freeindeed2]

Maybe you can help me, the one on "false Christs"...

It says there are 'many', but I don't recall it saying or alluding to Satan impersonating the second coming of Christ in all his glory and splendor, at least to the level that the EGW quotes you used make it sound.

I could be wrong though. Let me know what you come up with in Scripture.

 

[Jimlarmore]

The Bible says that Satan would appear as an angel of light. I didn't bring my Bible today but I'm sure that is what it says. Did you read that in your Bible Freeindeed?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[reddogs]

Well before I go hunt that down, let me tell you my personal opinion and that is the only way that all the people in the world become unified is if a force, being, leader that transcends all barriers of language, communication, culture were to appear and declare himself the "christ" and use 'miracle and wonders'.

I know a many who would drop all beliefs and go accept such a "christ" and do whatever he asked of them if he were to present himself as a "angel of light" and display wonders as a supernatural being, which Satan would have no trouble doing. Just come down here in South Florida when they see a 'appiration of the Virgin Mary' on a window, they worship it and leave offerings and declare it a 'miracle of god'.......

How much more if a "Virgin Mary" were to appear before all and declare the "angel of light" as "christ"........

 

[Eila]

2 Corinthians 11 "12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."

This verse establishes that there are workers for God who are not workers for God, but the devil. I do not see it establishing that the devil will look like the description of Jesus in Revelation or that the devil presents truths that Jesus taught or that the devil heals or anything about the claim to change Sabbath to Sunday.

 

[reddogs]

But as sure as I am standing here I am of the opinion that Satan will not pass the oportunity to present himself as a "false christ", it is his last great chance to fullfil his dream as being like God and he wont pass it up. It is his 'last hurrah'......

And I am of the opinion that he will have many "false prophets" to support his claim, some of these religious televangalists caught up in the "wonder" of his power, others completely fooled or not spiritually discerning who will tell the people, yes he is the "christ"....

1. Matthew 24:24
   For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.
   Matthew 24:23-25 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)
2. Mark 13:22
   For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.
   Mark 13:21-23 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)
3. 2 Corinthians 11:13
   For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
   2 Corinthians 11:12-14 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 11 (Whole Chapter)

 

[Eila]

I think these texts are important to consider:

Matthew 24 "24For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God's chosen ones)."

Mark 13 "22False Christs (Messiahs) and false prophets will arise and show signs and [work] miracles to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (those God has chosen out for Himself)."

Two words in both texts stick out to me "if possible".

False christs and false prophets will seek to lead astray God's people, but these texts seem to suggest that it is not possible. Those that the false christs and prophets lead astray are likely not God's people. They will try to lead astray God's people, but not succeed.