Seventh-day Adventist's and formers discuss the Sabbath--other Sabbatarians welcome

[tall73]

This is for discussing the Adventist view of the Sabbath. Adventists, former Adventists and other Sabbatarians including Messianics, etc. are welcome.

It is my hope that we can go through each of the issues or key texts one at a time. This way we can thoroughly examine the evidence.

Here are some suggested specifics for discussion, one by one.

(purple, already underway)

Texts showing continued synagogue attendance
Hebrews 4
Romans
Hebrews 8 and Exodus, the old and new covenants.
Colossians 2, Romans 14 and Galatians, especially chapter 4.
Acts 15, the council
Jesus' teaching and example regarding the Sabbath
Early church evidence
modern practice

other?

 

[tall73]

double

 

[tall73]

I would like to start with the continued Sabbath observance question. Below are listed texts that show continued synagogue attendance in the early church. So my question to those former Adventists among us who no longer keep the Sabbath is why do you think they were still meeting this way? Was it habit? Was it optional but not required? Etc. Please provide evidence in any case.

Joh 9:22 (His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesus to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.)

The text here reveals two things. First that the Christians did not voluntarily leave the synagogues. Second it strongly suggests that even after the time of Jesus' resurrection, and likely during the time of the writing of the gospel this was still occurring. Christians continued to attend the synagogue because they saw Jesus as the fulfillment of Judaism, with the gentiles brought in, not a radical separation. It is also of note that the formula curse in the synagogues against the Nazarenes is believed to have been instituted between 70 AD to 90 AD, and even later by some, indicating that the writing of this text would be around the time of that development.

Act 9:1 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest
Act 9:2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

Act 22:19 And I said, 'Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you.

When Saul (Paul) went to find Christians he went to the synagogue as they were still meeting there.

Act 13:14 but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.
Act 13:15 After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it."
Act 13:16 So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said: "Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen.

This is the first of a number of passages in which Paul attended the synagogue. While he did go at times to preach it is not clear from this passage that this was his intent. He was sitting there and was asked to speak, as happened in synagogues, especially with guests. Whether this was by pre-arrangement we are not told, though later it clearly was.

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

It was Paul's costom to attend synagogue and to reason with the Jews. This was for evangelistic purposes, but also fits with Paul's identification of himself as a Jew, who holds to the traditions of the fathers, and part of the sect of Judaism called the Nazarenes:

Act 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets.

Even when there was no synagogue Paul observed the Sabbath by finding a place of prayer.

Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.

Over long spans of time Paul continued to meet with both Jews and Gentiles on the Sabbath of each week, never telling them to meet on Sunday, or suggesting a cessation of Sabbath observance.

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

James, during the discussion of Acts 15 regardin salvation by faith and circumcision, the law of Moses etc. makes reference to the continuing preaching of Moses in the synagogue and assumes familiarity with the practice on the part of all present, from the various churches throughout the world:

Act 15:21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

James references the synagogue when speaking to Jewish Christians:

Jam 2:2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in,
Jam 2:3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "You sit here in a good place," while you say to the poor man, "You stand over there," or, "Sit down at my feet,"
Jam 2:4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

The word translated "assembly" here is the term for the synagogue, συναγωγή.

In these texts the Sabbath day is continually called just that, years after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Adventtruth]

Joh 9:22 (His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesus to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.)

The text here reveals two things. First that the Christians did not voluntarily leave the synagogues. Second it strongly suggests that even after the time of Jesus' resurrection, and likely during the time of the writing of the gospel this was still occurring. Christians continued to attend the synagogue because they saw Jesus as the fulfillment of Judaism, with the gentiles brought in, not a radical separation. It is also of note that the formula curse in the synagogues against the Nazarenes is believed to have been instituted between 70 AD to 90 AD, and even later by some, indicating that the writing of this text would be around the time of that development.

This text only reveals that they did not say because they feared the Jews. The already knew they would put people pout of the synagogue. You have read much into that text.

Act 9:1 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest

Act 9:2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

Act 22:19 And I said, 'Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you.

When Saul (Paul) went to find Christians he went to the synagogue as they were still meeting there.

Act 13:14 but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.
Act 13:15 After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it."
Act 13:16 So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said: "Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen.

This is the first of a number of passages in which Paul attended the synagogue. While he did go at times to preach it is not clear from this passage that this was his intent. He was sitting there and was asked to speak, as happened in synagogues, especially with guests. Whether this was by pre-arrangement we are not told, though later it clearly was.

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

It was Paul's costom to attend synagogue and to reason with the Jews. This was for evangelistic purposes, but also fits with Paul's identification of himself as a Jew, who holds to the traditions of the fathers, and part of the sect of Judaism called the Nazarenes:

Act 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets.

Even when there was no synagogue Paul observed the Sabbath by finding a place of prayer.

Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.

Over long spans of time Paul continued to meet with both Jews and Gentiles on the Sabbath of each week, never telling them to meet on Sunday, or suggesting a cessation of Sabbath observance.

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

James, during the discussion of Acts 15 regardin salvation by faith and circumcision, the law of Moses etc. makes reference to the continuing preaching of Moses in the synagogue and assumes familiarity with the practice on the part of all present, from the various churches throughout the world:

Act 15:21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

James references the synagogue when speaking to Jewish Christians:

Jam 2:2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in,
Jam 2:3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "You sit here in a good place," while you say to the poor man, "You stand over there," or, "Sit down at my feet,"
Jam 2:4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

The word translated "assembly" here is the term for the synagogue, συναγωγή.

In these texts the Sabbath day is continually called just that, years after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Its sorta like when the American slaves where freed, Where they free? Or where they still in bondage? When I first learned the truth of the Sabbath, that Jesus is the Sabbath rest, I felt as if I had to still keep the day. At first I felt guilty of breaking it. But it just does not add up when you understand the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Salvation can't be about works! THe 7th day as in the ten words is ceremonial! Its a mere external! Did Israel ever keep the Sabbath? No! IF so why then does Hebrews state they did'nt.

The official Adventist web site has a lsit of Sabbath activity. They make it about works. Its more than the mere works. I suggest that Paul was trying to reach the Jewish people by first helping them to understand the imputation of Christ and helping them see how Christ fulfilled everything under the old law. They understood He was coming but chances are tehy where greatly cinfused bty the teachings of teh Jewish leaders of the law.

AT

 

[tall73]

This text only reveals that they did not say because they feared the Jews. The already knew they would put people pout of the synagogue. You have read much into that text.

I mentioned two things. One is indisputable. They were put out. I also mentioned an extra-biblical historical trend of the synagogue curses on the heretics, which included Christians, to note how this played out later on, closer to the time of John's writing. John, writing about an earlier time, notes to his audience something they are familiar with.

We also see that the early liturgies, and yes, the early church was liturgical from the records we find, at least in some of their worship, was derived largely from the synagogue pattern.

Its sorta like when the American slaves where freed, Where they free? Or where they still in bondage? When I first learned the truth of the Sabbath, that Jesus is the Sabbath rest, I felt as if I had to still keep the day. At first I felt guilty of breaking it. But it just does not add up when you understand the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Salvation can't be about works! THe 7th day as in the ten words is ceremonial! Its a mere external! Did Israel ever keep the Sabbath? No! IF so why then does Hebrews state they did'nt.

A. I am uncertain of where you are seeing that Hebrews said they didn't. Can you post the specific text please. I assume you are referencing a portion of Hebrews 4.

B. So let me be clear. You are admitting that it was their practice but you feel it was merely by habit or guilt? Was Paul who stood up so strongly regarding the circumcision group just doing it out of guilt? I don't think so. Yet he continued to meet on the Sabbath of every week even after he had gained a hearing by using the synagogue venue. In fact he never seems to have left a synagogue until they rejected him. The same practice that we see in historical sources.

The official Adventist web site has a lsit of Sabbath activity. They make it about works. Its more than the mere works.

Since I don't even accept the 28 as a creed I certainly don't worry about what the website says on Sabbath rules. I am willing to concede that Adventist practice has tended toward legalism. On the other hand, that does not disprove the Sabbath but only elements of the Adventist practice as lived out by some. And despite the title I am not here to endorse Adventist practice. I am willing to discuss practice, but not until we at least establish that there is a need for the practice from Scripture, history, etc.

I suggest that Paul was trying to reach the Jewish people by first helping them to understand the imputation of Christ and helping them see how Christ fulfilled everything under the old law. They understood He was coming but chances are tehy where greatly cinfused bty the teachings of teh Jewish leaders of the law.

AT

Paul certainly did want them to see that Christ is the source of all true salvation.

However Paul does not see the law as pointless but as being fulfilled by walking in the Spirit--in a way that goes way beyond the cold letter.

I suggest we go through some of the key passages. Hebrews 4, Romans 7,8 on the relation of the law, Hebrews 8 on the nature of the covenant, etc.

Since your above statement is likely a reference to Hebrews 4 perhaps we should start there.

 

[Jon0388g]

Tall, what do you think of these verses?

It seems even the Gentiles recognised the Sabbath:

"As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath...The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord." Acts 13:42, 44

Jon

 

[tall73]

Tall, what do you think of these verses?

It seems even the Gentiles recognised the Sabbath:

"As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath...The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord." Acts 13:42, 44

Jon

Yes, Paul seemed content to continue in that venue for some time.

 

[Adventtruth]

A. I am uncertain of where you are seeing that Hebrews said they didn't. Can you post the specific text please. I assume you are referencing a portion of Hebrews 4.


Hebrews 4:8

B. So let me be clear. You are admitting that it was their practice but you feel it was merely by habit or guilt? Was Paul who stood up so strongly regarding the circumcision group just doing it out of guilt? I don't think so. Yet he continued to meet on the Sabbath of every week even after he had gained a hearing by using the synagogue venue. In fact he never seems to have left a synagogue until they rejected him. The same practice that we see in historical sources.

My only point here is that for most of the Jews it was something new. Its a lifestyle change. Its not that easy to change certain habits. I'm sure Paul was not in bondage, but went to preach the gospel.

Since I don't even accept the 28 as a creed I certainly don't worry about what the website says on Sabbath rules. I am willing to concede that Adventist practice has tended toward legalism. On the other hand, that does not disprove the Sabbath but only elements of the Adventist practice as lived out by some. And despite the title I am not here to endorse Adventist practice. I am willing to discuss practice, but not until we at least establish that there is a need for the practice from Scripture, history, etc.

well I can assure you that I can't agree that the 7th day practice is needed today for the justified believer in Christ. But I am willing to make the discussion priority if you are willing.

However Paul does not see the law as pointless but as being fulfilled by walking in the Spirit--in a way that goes way beyond the cold letter.

Lets discuss it.

I suggest we go through some of the key passages. Hebrews 4, Romans 7,8 on the relation of the law, Hebrews 8 on the nature of the covenant, etc.

Since your above statement is likely a reference to Hebrews 4 perhaps we should start there.

Go ahead and start with Romans...its foundational.

At

 

[tall73]

Well I agree that Romans is foundational. But since we have Hebrews 4 on the table I will start there. I think we can deal with it in pretty quick fashion and then move on to Romans.


Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.

That is not speaking of the failure of Sabbath rest.

Here is my take on Hebrews 4. To get to the meaning I have made a review of the general content of each chapter so as to outline the themes. The overall theme is simply that Jesus is superior to their previous understanding in every way. They should not fall away from the faith entrusted to them. They are warned not to return to Judaism, or fall away due to persecution, but to cling to Jesus. Jesus touches on the key figures in the Jewish mind, Moses, Abraham, angels, Aaron, etc. and Jesus is superior to them all. To fall away from Him would be worse than to fall away from the first covenant.

The meaning of chapter 4 should be in line with this overall theme.

A. The overall book.
Chapter 1:
Jesus is superior to angels. They are ministering spirits, He is the Son.

Chapter 2:
A warning against falling away from the message they had heard

Jesus made like unto his bretehren. He is able to help them when tempted (to fall away)

Chapter 3:
Jesus was better than Moses. Moses was faithful in all of God's house. But Jesus was the Son, to whom all the house belongs. We are the house.

Another warning against falling away. If today you hear his voice do not harden your hearts. Their possible rebellion against God's will is compared with the people in the exodus, who at first left Egypt but were later punished for unbelief.

They are to encourage each other daily to avoid hardening by sin.

Chapter 4: - to be examined further below

Chapter 5:
A priest must be called

Jesus a High priest in the order of Melchizedek, the source of eternal salvation for all who believe

The Hebrew believers are not able to comprehend, because they are still spiritual infants, though they ought by now to be teachers. They have not spiritually matured. They need basics rather than the teaching about righteousness.

Chapter 6:
A call to not fall away. The strongest yet. It will be impossible for those enlightened ones who have drunk of the Spirit, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance. They will have crucified Jesus again by denying Him publicly.

An illustration is given of a worthless plot of land that takes in rain but never produces. This is a picture of the recipients, who have received blessings from God but have not grown, and are in danger of falling away. But better things are hoped for in their case. They should continue to the end.


Abraham was patient and received what was promised God swore by Himself with an oath. They too have assurance from God.

Chapter 7:
Return to the High priest theme. Melchizedek received tithe from Abraham, had no geneology (was without beginning and end), was called the king of righteousness, and the king of peace and remains a priest forever. He did not descend from Levi. Levi figuratively paid the tithe through Abraham. He was greater than Abraham as the lesser is blessed by the greater.

The levitical preisthood did not bring perfection. Jesus was not of the line of Aaron but of the line of Melchizedek. He was both King and Priest. The Lord made Him a priest forever, not on the basis of lineage, but His indestructible life. He does not offer sacrifices over and over for His own sin and others, but one sacrifice for all time, Himself.

Chapter 8:
Jesus is the High Priest of the true tabernacle in heaven, of which the earthly was a copy.

Jesus' ministry is superior to that of the other priesthood, and his covenant is better.

The old covenant was based on bad promises because the people did not keep them. God therefore made a new covenant. The law was written on the heart and mind, and God forgave their sins, and made them His people. It was not dependent on their promises.

Chapter 9:
A review of the worship in the earthly temple, including a brief layout of the grounds. Particularly the Day of Atonement service is treated. Only the high priest went into the most holy place, once a year. Jesus went through the real tabernacle as high priest. He cleanses us with better sacrifices than cleansed the earthly temple.

Jesus is in charge of a better covenant. Just as blood was necessary for a will, Jesus' death and blood initiated the new covenant.

Jesus died once to take away sin and will return again not as a sacrifice but to bring salvation.

Chapter 10:
Sacrifices are not the reality, they are an annual reminder of sin. Jesus' once for all sacrifice provided salvation and the new covenant.

A call to persevere in light of our great High Priest and the salvation He brought. They are not to forsake meeting together.

Those who continually sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth have no sacrifice for sin left.

He calls to mind the early days of the faith of the recipients when they were persecuted, lost possessions etc. They should not shrink back and be destroyed, but endure and receive what is promised.

Chapter 11:
Heros of the faith are outlined, all of which endured by faith. They did not receive what was promised, but now it is revealed in their time.

Chapter 12:
We are to follow Jesus who ran the race before us, and endured persecution.

Hardships are discipline from the Lord of His sons.

Instruction on holy living.

They are not come to the mountain of fire, trembling in fear, but to Mount Zion, the new Jerusalem, the city of God, to joyful assembly. They should not refuse God, as those who refused on earth did not escape.

Chapter 13:
Closing reminders and calls to obey leaders, holy living, reminders of Jesus' sacrifice etc.

B.
The context of chapter 4.

Chapter 3 begins the thought that is continued in chapter 4. So a closer look is warranted.


HEB 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. 2 He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. 3 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4 For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.


As Moses was seen as the law giver and friend of God the author wanted to make plain that Jesus is superior to him as well. Moses was a servant of God, Jesus is the Son, over all the house.



HEB 3:5 Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

HEB 3:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

"Today, if you hear his voice,

HEB 3:8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,

HEB 3:9 where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.

HEB 3:10 That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, `Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'

HEB 3:11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
`They shall never enter my rest.' "

HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first




Here a scene is reviewed from the experience of Moses, through the vehicle of Psalm 95. The exodus experience is in view when the tribes failed to go up and take the promised land. The whole generation died in the wilderness, even though they had left originally in faith. In the same way the ones who were now in danger of falling away had taken their stand for Jesus but now were in danger of falling away.

15 As has just been said:

"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."

HEB 3:16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.


It is those who disobey who are in view. Again, an encouragement to the recipients not to emulate them.

C. Chapter 4
HEB 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

"So I declared on oath in my anger,
`They shall never enter my rest.' "


The promise still stands today to enter God's rest. In context, this would be belief and the reward it brings. They are to enter by faith, staying firm to the end, which is where the earlier fell short.



And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."


God is seen as resting from the beginning of creation. He waits for people to enter that rest. The issue here is simply that God is resting, and waits for others. The view is not that God rests only one day a week, but has been in continuous rest since that time.


HEB 4:6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:

"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."

HEB 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.



Joshua led the people to the promised land. But the psalm still said there was a rest to enter. So therefore the rest was not fulfilled just by entering the promised land. It is the promise of salvation. Salvation is ultimately entering into God's rest which He has been in since creation. It is ceasing from our own works, and living by faith–the opposite of what those who doubted and died did.

The invitation is open to them today. It is the day of decision. But if they fall back they will suffer the same fate as those who fell in the wilderness.



HEB 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Those who are in danger of falling away should remember the example of those who fell in the desert. They cannot hide from God.


HEB 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Jesus is able to help, being tempted as we are. They need not fall away.

D. Sabbath implications.

This text is neither a support for weekly Sabbath observance, or a text which changes it. It is a call to not fall away as did the people in Moses' time. Their mistake was to not act in faith. It is the purpose of the letter to encourage the Hebrew Christians not to do the same, but to endure in faith.

The Sabbath rest mentioned is not the weekly Sabbath experience, but the lasting rest that God entered into and has remained in since. (This is clearly figurative as God is said to be at work every day by Jesus).

The recipients have the opportunity to enter the rest of salvation in Jesus through faith. But if they turn back they will be like those who fell in the desert.

The time periods mentioned can be summarized in this way:


a. Creation. (God starts His rest)
b. Joshua's time (God mentions His rest again, not allowing those who hardened their hearts to enter it.)
c. The psalmists time. (The offer of rest is still open, and an appeal is made to not harden your heart. It is seen to be an ongoing offer, "Today.")

Now please note, that at least from the time of Joshua all the way through to the time of the writing of Hebrews the literal Sabbath was around. It did not in anyway conflict with this offer of salvational rest, but is in fact an illustration of it.

The overall argument seems to be that resting started with God started at creation, was offered as salvational rest in Joshuas time, was still available in the psalmist's time, and extends to the author of Hebrew's time. Therefore he says a rest REMAINS (from those former three mentions of it). The nature of the rest (salvation) is not seen to have changed. In fact, if anything the symbol of the rest (The Sabbbath, which points to eventual ultimate rest), was being observed all the way through, both in the OT times, and even into the early church period (and indeed for centuries in most places in the church).

The whole passage is not a commentary on the Sabbath, but a warning not to be like those who missed out on the rest of salvation by hardening their hearts, and falling away.

The term Sabbatismos, while at other times referring to the weekly Sabbath is here simply referring to the eternal rest which that Sabbath rest of God pointed to in a larger sense. The Sabbath is a foretaste of that permanent rest that God is calling us to.

 

[Adventtruth]

While I agree that its not a commentary on the Sabbath, there is still much to be learned for this chapter.

My position is that the old covanant, 7th day Sabbath was a shadow of the reality we have in Christ. He is the true Sabbath Rest of God, not a day. The goal of the Day was Christ. Do you agree?

You have already stated that the author of Hebrews argued that Christ was "superior to their previous understanding in every way". This would have to include the ceremonial Sabbath of the 4th commandment aswell. Christ is better...it all pointed to Him!

Luke 24:27 (KJV) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

John 5:46 (KJV) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Overall I agree with your understanding of Hebrews 3 and 4. Heres where I differ .

This text is neither a support for weekly Sabbath observance, or a text which changes it. It is a call to not fall away as did the people in Moses' time. Their mistake was to not act in faith. It is the purpose of the letter to encourage the Hebrew Christians not to do the same, but to endure in faith.

This is where we have to appeal to other text. The 4th commandment was of the Old Covanant God had with Israel. The bible is clear, this Old covanant has vanished, (2 Cor 3) been removed for the justified believer in Christ. (1 Tim 1:9) We have become dead to the law and servants to Christ (Rom 7:4). We have been made free from sin and become servants to God and have our fruit unto holiness. (Rom 6:22) We now obey thru the filter of Christ fulfillment of the Law. The law is filtered through the sieve of all the changes brought about by Jesus, who is the goal and fulfilment of the law. Just want to make it clear...Justified sinners do not go around as if we have a license to sin. Justified sinners obey the law of Chirst! They are not lawless people!

Luke 24:44 (KJV) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Now if Jesus was the goal and fulfillment of the law, then we also understand that includes the 4th aswell. It is His law keeping not ours...His life that is imputed to us.

The Issues

Exodus 31:13 (KJV) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

They where to observe the day becasue it was a sign that God sanctified them.

Exodus 31:17 (KJV) It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

They where to observe the day becasue it was a sign that God created them.

Deuteronomy 5:15 (KJV) And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

They where to observe the day becasue it was a sign that God delivered them form bondage.

So I ask you...what was God doing? What is the bottom line here? He created them...He sanctified them...He delivered them form bondage, and the Day was a sign of those events. Was He just merely teaching them externals? Or did God have something better in mind?

HE had something better n mind!

Deuteronomy 6:1-6 (KJV) 1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: 2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged. 3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey. 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one Lord 5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

This is the underscore of all that God did for them...It was His Love for them, and He was trying to teach them to love Him above all things through the external day, and that something much better was coming.

So when we see Jesus saying all the law and prophet hang on the two, we see He was saying that it all flowed out of these two commandments to Love God and our fellow man. It was the same for the Israel as a nation of people, the day was to flow out of something much deeper than the day, and Jesus had just raised the stakes by His remarks that all the law and prophets hang on these two.

So when we go back to Hebrews, we understand what is being said.

Hebrews 4:6 (KJV) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Those whom it was first preached? These are those who died in the wilderness. They kept the physical sabbath, but never entered into the goal of it.

Hebrews 4:8 (KJV) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Here we see that Joshua did lead the nation in, but Israel as a nation never entered into the rest of God.

Hebrews 4:9 (KJV) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

This greek word sabbatismos for Rest that the author uses here is the only word in the bible...it is as if he coined his own word for sabbath rest here. He has made the connection with the original sabbath rest of God from creation. This is the true rest God has been calling believers into, and to which the physical sabbath pointed to...a rest form our labors, cause God has alrerady created us...delievered us, and sanctified us. While God does work even unto today, His work of creation, sanctification, and delieverance is now completed in the Christ event.

The children of Israel where called to faith through the Old covanant system, by grace, we are called to faith through Christ, by grace. The goal of the Old Covanant system of works was Chrsit. It is grace through faith that would have put them in as a Nation and will put us in as justified believers, in the true Sabbath Rest of God...Christ.

Hebrews 4:14 (KJV) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Jesus has passed into the heavens, becasue He has finished His work for us...He is resting from His labors.

Hebrews 4:16 (KJV) Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We can rest in His perfect works for us, and justified sinners have been free to come boldly to the throne of Grace sence 33 A.D.

Ephesians 2:5-6 (KJV) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

If we are sitting in heavenly places in Christ, we are in the true Sabbath Rest Now!.

AT

 

[tall73]

For the moment I am mainly going to reply to the Hebrews 4 portion. The other texts give me an idea where you are coming from. But discussions of the “ceremonial Sabbath of the 4th commandment” or the Sabbath being a “shadow” cannot really be discussed until we have looked at particular texts (Col. 2, etc.) in detail.

So I don’t mind you posting other texts in as much as they help explain your position. But it would be too unwieldy to have an in-depth discussion of the context of each text you mention here, right in this post. We can get to each in turn soon enough. Suffice to say, at the current time I agree that in the OT we clearly see that God was the focus of the day, and taking delight in Him was the purpose. The rest allowed everyone, slave or free, to have time for such. It was a blessing to man. Christ is always the goal, whether of the Sabbath or anything else. But Christ being the goal does not prevent an actual day of observance. Just as in the OT they spent a day focused on God.

You have already stated that the author of Hebrews argued that Christ was "superior to their previous understanding in every way". This would have to include the ceremonial Sabbath of the 4th commandment aswell. Christ is better...it all pointed to Him!

Yes, Jesus is superior in every way to their old system. However, while we may speculate about what things in particular Jesus has changed we can only know for sure the ones he mentions. He specifically addresses the priesthood, the covenant, etc. But this passage is not specifically addressing the Sabbath, but the salvational rest “today.” Since the law is written on the heart in the new covenant in chapter 8 we can take this issue back up again in that passage. It would be the logical place to see what God has done with the law in the new covenant.

Overall I agree with your understanding of Hebrews 3 and 4. Heres where I differ .

This text is neither a support for weekly Sabbath observance, or a text which changes it. It is a call to not fall away as did the people in Moses' time. Their mistake was to not act in faith. It is the purpose of the letter to encourage the Hebrew Christians not to do the same, but to endure in faith.

This is where we have to appeal to other text. The 4th commandment was of the Old Covanant God had with Israel. The bible is clear, this Old covanant has vanished, (2 Cor 3) been removed for the justified believer in Christ. (1 Tim 1:9) We have become dead to the law and servants to Christ (Rom 7:4). We have been made free from sin and become servants to God and have our fruit unto holiness. (Rom 6:22) We now obey thru the filter of Christ fulfillment of the Law. The law is filtered through the sieve of all the changes brought about by Jesus, who is the goal and fulfilment of the law. Just want to make it clear...Justified sinners do not go around as if we have a license to sin. Justified sinners obey the law of Chirst! They are not lawless people!

A. A thorough discussion of what constitutes the old covenant can be taken up when we examine Hebrews 8, as it is directly related. For now I would just say that it is my contention that the Sabbath is not relegated to the old covenant. So I don’t agree on this portion. Though I do agree the old covenant is gone, replaced by the new.

B. I agree that justified sinners do not go around as if there is a liscense to sin. I have not made that charge. The new covenant clearly allowed righteousness in a MORE full way than before. The only specific question is if the Sabbath was still a part of that.

C. Since this is not directly on Hebrews 4 I will wait. I am not trying to annoy you by saying that more than once. But there are so many different terms and underlying concepts that come into such discussions that it is best to handle them one at a time.

Luke 24:44 (KJV) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Now if Jesus was the goal and fulfillment of the law, then we also understand that includes the 4th aswell. It is His law keeping not ours...His life that is imputed to us.

The Issues

Exodus 31:13 (KJV) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

They where to observe the day becasue it was a sign that God sanctified them.

Exodus 31:17 (KJV) It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

They where to observe the day becasue it was a sign that God created them.

Deuteronomy 5:15 (KJV) And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

They where to observe the day becasue it was a sign that God delivered them form bondage.

So I ask you...what was God doing? What is the bottom line here? He created them...He sanctified them...He delivered them form bondage, and the Day was a sign of those events. Was He just merely teaching them externals? Or did God have something better in mind?

HE had something better n mind!

Deuteronomy 6:1-6 (KJV) 1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: 2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged. 3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey. 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one Lord 5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

This is the underscore of all that God did for them...It was His Love for them, and He was trying to teach them to love Him above all things through the external day, and that something much better was coming.

So when we see Jesus saying all the law and prophet hang on the two, we see He was saying that it all flowed out of these two commandments to Love God and our fellow man. It was the same for the Israel as a nation of people, the day was to flow out of something much deeper than the day, and Jesus had just raised the stakes by His remarks that all the law and prophets hang on these two.

I am not currently responding to this portion, but I have read it to see where you are coming from.

So when we go back to Hebrews, we understand what is being said.

Hebrews 4:6 (KJV) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Those whom it was first preached? These are those who died in the wilderness. They kept the physical sabbath, but never entered into the goal of it.

The Sabbath is not what he is speaking of. What was preached was salvation, in this case, entering the promises land. They did not. They hardened their hearts and their bodies fell in the desert.

Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


They did not enter rest (promised land, type of salvation), because they all died, as God promised they would, before the people entered the land. They lacked faith. Here it is applied to those who are about to fall away. This is an exhortation portion.

Hebrews 4:8 (KJV) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Here we see that Joshua did lead the nation in, but Israel as a nation never entered into the rest of God.

I agree with that. Joshua led them to Canaan, but again their lack of faith prevented entering God’s salvational rest. Therefore he indicates that it is still available.

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Now notice that this “today” rest of salvation was available in David’s time. It was going side by side with the Sabbath that was its weekly reminder, and a special time to realize the rest within a busy world.

Hebrews 4:9 (KJV) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

This greek word sabbatismos for Rest that the author uses here is the only word in the bible...it is as if he coined his own word for sabbath rest here. He has made the connection with the original sabbath rest of God from creation. This is the true rest God has been calling believers into, and to which the physical sabbath pointed to...a rest form our labors, cause God has alrerady created us...delievered us, and sanctified us. While God does work even unto today, His work of creation, sanctification, and delieverance is now completed in the Christ event.

A. It is not a new term but is seen in extra-biblical sources in reference to the Sabbath day rest (see for instance Bacchiocchi's references on the extra-biblical usage.) It does refer to the original Sabbath rest. But it is the original Sabbath rest of God that is in view, as He has been resting since that day, and “today”, any day, we can enter in to it. This is the rest, God’s rest, that has been spoken of throughout that was started at creation, was available but shunned in Joshua’s time, was again said to be available in David’s time and now is still remaining.

Now some have taken the term to indicate that a literal 7th day Sabbath still remains, reasoning that here he is speaking of the 7th day Sabbath because of the term used. However, context trumps usage. And we cannot in fact say that his argument is leading up to any such conclusion as "the 7th day Sabbath still remains." In the same way we cannot say that his reasoning in context refers to the 7th day Sabbath as being done away with, replaced by resting in Christ either. The argument is that the rest entered into by God since creation, available ANY day (today) still REMAINS. He is appealing to them in their terms, in terms of the writings of their hero David. It is part of his overall exhortation not to fall away. It is made even more pressing because Jesus is the source of this every day rest of salvation.

The Seventh-day Sabbath as a daily institution is simply not in view, either to uphold it or change it.


B.The timing of the “today” salvation did not start then. It REMAINED until then, having been extended already way back in the time of David and before.

C. Undoubtedly Christ brings new meaning to this as the basis of the salvational rest. But the rest remaining is the salvation rest spoken of already that was rejected in Joshua’s time, was offered in David’s time and REMAINS today, now seen to be more full in Christ who is the basis of what God was promising all along.

So again, the weekly rest ran right alongside this rest of salvation for many years. The basis for the rest has now arrived—the salvational rest. But he makes no indication that the weekly Sabbath was in fact annulled by this. In fact man is no less in need of a reminder and time for rest than he was before. The world has not changed such that he no longer needs focused time with God. Now please note, I am not saying that we cannot rest every day in Christ. But that “today” rest was ALWAYS available. And it is today.

The children of Israel where called to faith through the Old covanant system, by grace, we are called to faith through Christ, by grace. The goal of the Old Covanant system of works was Chrsit. It is grace through faith that would have put them in as a Nation and will put us in as justified believers, in the true Sabbath Rest of God...Christ.

He states that the same rest remains, the salvational “today” rest, which is more clearly seen in Jesus. He does not say “Christ is the weekly Sabbath” or Christ fulfilled the weekly Sabbath or anything of the sort. He says that the same “today” rest of salvation that was there in David’s time still is.

Hebrews 4:14 (KJV) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Jesus has passed into the heavens, becasue He has finished His work for us...He is resting from His labors.

Hebrews 4:16 (KJV) Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We can rest in His perfect works for us, and justified sinners have been free to come boldly to the throne of Grace sence 33 A.D.

Ephesians 2:5-6 (KJV) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

If we are sitting in heavenly places in Christ, we are in the true Sabbath Rest Now!.

AT

We are entering the true rest of salvation in Christ. But you are conflating that with the weekly Sabbath. The reference to God’s rest on the 7th day was to show His constant rest and its availability since then on ANY and EVERY day.

Again, this portion is an exhortation portion to not fall away. It is not a treatise on the weekly Sabbath as it was simply not in his radar.

Now the question in Col. 2 of whether the weekly Sabbath is a shadow is a more reasonable text to look at in this connection, which I imagine we will do soon enough.

If you wish we may continue this aspect or move on to Romans. I am particularly wanting to look at 7 and 8, but anywhere in Romans is fair game.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Hebrews 4 specifically uses the same original language for the Sabbath as was used for the 7th day Sabbath. Why would the writer of Hebrews even mention the Sabbath this way if it was to be done away with? I agree that the context may be speaking of entering into the rest of God here. However, the preponderance of the message here clearly shows the 7th day Sabbath still being in effect in the new covenant. Saying it does not say anything for or against it is wrong I think. To mention it in the light of the new covenant and the rest of God tells me that this rest can be especially meaningfull on this holy day.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Adventtruth]

While you and I disagree, we are not that far apart. I don't see the scriptures teaching the Mosiac system of works as binding upon the believer in Christ, none of it, therefore that would allow for my understanding of Sabbath/salvation rest being in Jesus.

Start a new study any place you see fit.

AT

For the moment I am mainly going to reply to the Hebrews 4 portion. The other texts give me an idea where you are coming from. But discussions of the “ceremonial Sabbath of the 4th commandment” or the Sabbath being a “shadow” cannot really be discussed until we have looked at particular texts (Col. 2, etc.) in detail.

So I don’t mind you posting other texts in as much as they help explain your position. But it would be too unwieldy to have an in-depth discussion of the context of each text you mention here, right in this post. We can get to each in turn soon enough. Suffice to say, at the current time I agree that in the OT we clearly see that God was the focus of the day, and taking delight in Him was the purpose. The rest allowed everyone, slave or free, to have time for such. It was a blessing to man. Christ is always the goal, whether of the Sabbath or anything else. But Christ being the goal does not prevent an actual day of observance. Just as in the OT they spent a day focused on God.

Yes, Jesus is superior in every way to their old system. However, while we may speculate about what things in particular Jesus has changed we can only know for sure the ones he mentions. He specifically addresses the priesthood, the covenant, etc. But this passage is not specifically addressing the Sabbath, but the salvational rest “today.” Since the law is written on the heart in the new covenant in chapter 8 we can take this issue back up again in that passage. It would be the logical place to see what God has done with the law in the new covenant.

A. A thorough discussion of what constitutes the old covenant can be taken up when we examine Hebrews 8, as it is directly related. For now I would just say that it is my contention that the Sabbath is not relegated to the old covenant. So I don’t agree on this portion. Though I do agree the old covenant is gone, replaced by the new.

B. I agree that justified sinners do not go around as if there is a liscense to sin. I have not made that charge. The new covenant clearly allowed righteousness in a MORE full way than before. The only specific question is if the Sabbath was still a part of that.

C. Since this is not directly on Hebrews 4 I will wait. I am not trying to annoy you by saying that more than once. But there are so many different terms and underlying concepts that come into such discussions that it is best to handle them one at a time.

I am not currently responding to this portion, but I have read it to see where you are coming from.

The Sabbath is not what he is speaking of. What was preached was salvation, in this case, entering the promises land. They did not. They hardened their hearts and their bodies fell in the desert.

Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


They did not enter rest (promised land, type of salvation), because they all died, as God promised they would, before the people entered the land. They lacked faith. Here it is applied to those who are about to fall away. This is an exhortation portion.

I agree with that. Joshua led them to Canaan, but again their lack of faith prevented entering God’s salvational rest. Therefore he indicates that it is still available.

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Now notice that this “today” rest of salvation was available in David’s time. It was going side by side with the Sabbath that was its weekly reminder, and a special time to realize the rest within a busy world.

A. It is not a new term but is seen in extra-biblical sources in reference to the Sabbath day rest (see for instance Bacchiocchi's references on the extra-biblical usage.) It does refer to the original Sabbath rest. But it is the original Sabbath rest of God that is in view, as He has been resting since that day, and “today”, any day, we can enter in to it. This is the rest, God’s rest, that has been spoken of throughout that was started at creation, was available but shunned in Joshua’s time, was again said to be available in David’s time and now is still remaining.

Now some have taken the term to indicate that a literal 7th day Sabbath still remains, reasoning that here he is speaking of the 7th day Sabbath because of the term used. However, context trumps usage. And we cannot in fact say that his argument is leading up to any such conclusion as "the 7th day Sabbath still remains." In the same way we cannot say that his reasoning in context refers to the 7th day Sabbath as being done away with, replaced by resting in Christ either. The argument is that the rest entered into by God since creation, available ANY day (today) still REMAINS. He is appealing to them in their terms, in terms of the writings of their hero David. It is part of his overall exhortation not to fall away. It is made even more pressing because Jesus is the source of this every day rest of salvation.

The Seventh-day Sabbath as a daily institution is simply not in view, either to uphold it or change it.


B.The timing of the “today” salvation did not start then. It REMAINED until then, having been extended already way back in the time of David and before.

C. Undoubtedly Christ brings new meaning to this as the basis of the salvational rest. But the rest remaining is the salvation rest spoken of already that was rejected in Joshua’s time, was offered in David’s time and REMAINS today, now seen to be more full in Christ who is the basis of what God was promising all along.

So again, the weekly rest ran right alongside this rest of salvation for many years. The basis for the rest has now arrived—the salvational rest. But he makes no indication that the weekly Sabbath was in fact annulled by this. In fact man is no less in need of a reminder and time for rest than he was before. The world has not changed such that he no longer needs focused time with God. Now please note, I am not saying that we cannot rest every day in Christ. But that “today” rest was ALWAYS available. And it is today.

He states that the same rest remains, the salvational “today” rest, which is more clearly seen in Jesus. He does not say “Christ is the weekly Sabbath” or Christ fulfilled the weekly Sabbath or anything of the sort. He says that the same “today” rest of salvation that was there in David’s time still is.

We are entering the true rest of salvation in Christ. But you are conflating that with the weekly Sabbath. The reference to God’s rest on the 7th day was to show His constant rest and its availability since then on ANY and EVERY day.

Again, this portion is an exhortation portion to not fall away. It is not a treatise on the weekly Sabbath as it was simply not in his radar.

Now the question in Col. 2 of whether the weekly Sabbath is a shadow is a more reasonable text to look at in this connection, which I imagine we will do soon enough.

If you wish we may continue this aspect or move on to Romans. I am particularly wanting to look at 7 and 8, but anywhere in Romans is fair game.

 

[tall73]

Hebrews 4 specifically uses the same original language for the Sabbath as was used for the 7th day Sabbath. Why would the writer of Hebrews even mention the Sabbath this way if it was to be done away with? I agree that the context may be speaking of entering into the rest of God here. However, the preponderance of the message here clearly shows the 7th day Sabbath still being in effect in the new covenant. Saying it does not say anything for or against it is wrong I think. To mention it in the light of the new covenant and the rest of God tells me that this rest can be especially meaningfull on this holy day.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

The context certainly says that the remaining rest is the salvation rest in Jesus. So you really only have two choices. Either it is speaking of the rest in God that remains from early times, or it is speaking of the remaining "Sabbath day" rest--which is now transformed.

I don't see any room for it saying there remains a "7th day Sabbath." That was not what the whole context was going toward.

 

[tall73]

While you and I disagree, we are not that far apart. I don't see the scriptures teaching the Mosiac system of works as binding upon the believer in Christ, none of it, therefore that would allow for my understanding of Sabbath/salvation rest being in Jesus.

Start a new study any place you see fit.

AT

I agree that we are not far apart on focus. There is no doubt that we are to walk in the Spirit which fulfills the law in us, and that we could never do it on our own power. The only question to me is whether the law written on the heart includes the Sabbath.


Alright...well let's go to Romans next. Then I would suggest Hebrews 8, the old and new covenants, the Sabbath being a sign for Israel etc. From there we can go to Col. 2, Romans 14, Galatians, etc.

 

[tall73]

Here is my take on Romans 7 and 8.

Paul undoubtedly changed in his focus from law orientation to Christ orientation. But does this mean he was antinomian? As he would say "by no means!".

Instead Paul was focused on the change that the resurrection brought about in our sinful nature, giving life to our mortal bodies so that we could now live for Christ willingly. At the same time Jesus took away all condemnation. My contention is simply this. The law which condemned Paul, because of his sinful nature, which was external, in tablets of stone, was now in Paul's heart. He was freed from his body of death which was a slave to sin, to serve Christ freely, and was cleansed from past sin so he felt no condemnation.

RO 7:1 Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

RO 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

v.1-3 Setting the human example of the law's power over a man ceasing after death. The specific application is of the marriage law. The spouse is released after death, and is not an adulterer.

v.4-5 We are no longer wedded to the law but to Christ. Notice that we now belong to Christ. This was key for Paul since in his earlier experience he was completely dedicated to the law, and as for legalistic righteousness was "faultless" according to Philippians. Paul's motivation has radically changed,.as has his understanding of what saved him:

PHP 3:2 Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh-- 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Here in Philippians Paul is saying that

a. We are not considered righteous by circumcision, by race, or even by keeping the law. But in fact, by righteousness that comes from Christ.

b. Notice, Paul is merely saying that it is grace that saves us. He is not arguing against the moral law. He is arguing against being saved by anything but Christ. Once you have broken the law in one point, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be saved by the law. So dependence on it for salvation is pointless. We are not under the law for salvation.

So Paul's focus has radically shifted from legalistic righteousness (confidence in the flesh, in who he was and what he did), to Christ's righteousness. He has been married to Christ instead of the law.

RO 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


By participating in the death of Christ (Romans 6) we were freed from the need to perfectly keep the law for salvation–which the sinful nature made impossible. Without Christ we are only able to bear fruit for death. In other words, we can only disobey. And since our righteousness was just on our own, we were lost. But now Jesus forgave us AND made it possible for us to bear fruit to God. We are released from serving for salvation and now server God in a new way, by the SPIRIT (of God). (keep in mind that even in the OT grace was present, looking forward to Jesus as we look back. But the temptation was always there to earn salvation).

Now what is it that really changed here? As we will see more clearly in chapter 8, what changed is that we now serve God by His Spirit making alive our sinful nature so that we can fully obey. We never could before. And we also have forgiveness for the failures in keeping the law. Jesus is our forgiveness and our power.

RO 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

v. 7 Paul realizes that the reader might deduce from the earlier statement that the law is sin, or somehow bad. He makes clear that is not his point at all. In fact, the law informed him of what sin was.

NOTE: Paul uses the word law in different ways at times. He speaks of it as a principle or force, and as particular parts of the OT law. we have to tell by the context which he means in each instance.

In this case it is clear that he is speaking at the least of the ten commandments because he makes particular mention of the coveting command. So it is clear that he is saying the law, including the 10 commandments is not sin.

v. 8-9 Sin came in and used the commandment to produce wrong desires. Why is this if the law is not sin? Because the sinful nature is provoked by the law. It sees what it wants, and goes after it. But is the problem the law? Paul doesn't seem to say so. The problem is SIN and the sinful nature.


sin is dead without the law, because the law points out what God's will is. But sin using the law condemns us. Once Paul was aware of what the law said, he was condemned by his breaking of it. He was UNDER THE PENALTY of the law, because he could never keep it.

v.10-12 the law was intended to bring life, but couldn't. Why not? Because of sin.
It was sin that deceived Paul and put him to death through the law. But Paul affirms that the law is HOLY, RIGHTEOUS AND GOOD. It was used by sin to destroy him. The law only condemns because of sin. So the sinful nature, slave to sin, cannot hope to gain salvation. It needs the forgiveness of Christ. But does this mean that the law is no longer good to follow? No, not at all. The problem was never with the law. But now we follow it not because we are under it for salvation, but because we are forgiven and made alive to God because of Jesus.


RO 7:13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

v. 13 The law is not the cause of our death! Sin needed to be recognized for what it was. Sin has always been the problem, not the law. The commandment was added so that men would see just how destructive sin was. Jesus came to get rid of sin, not the law. He did, however, free us from keeping the law for salvation, because once we had broken it in one point, we could no longer do so.


RO 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

v. 14-17 Again, a defense of the law. The law is spiritual. But Paul is not. Is the problem with the law, or with Paul? Paul is sold as a slave to SIN. He is powerless to do anything but sin. But he agrees the law is good. So the law is holy, righteous, spiritual, good, not sin, etc. Does it sound as though Paul is against the law? But he is a slave to sin, sold to sin, can't do anything but sin, put to death by sin. What is the problem, the law or Paul? It is Paul. He is a slave to sin.

18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

v. 18 As opposed to the law, which is good, nothing good lives in Paul's sinful nature.

v. 19-20 Paul is perplexed by why he keeps doing what is wrong. He concludes that it is sin living in him. He has no other option but to do wrong.

RO 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

v. 21 Here we see Paul's alternate use of law. Paul finds the "law" at work, or the principle, the rule etc. that he cannot escape sin. When he wants to do good he can't.

v. 22 Now he clarifies that he delights in God's law in his inner being–he wants to do it. So he is clarifying definitions. But there is a problem. There is yet another "law" or rule in his body, the one that does not let him do God's law. It is warring against God's law in Paul's mind. It is called the law of sin. It is at work in his flesh. So Paul says, who will RESCUE me from this body of death? Paul is in real trouble. He can't keep the law, he is condemned by it because of his sin, he is hopeless, without salvation (in his natural self). But now he sees a new hope.

25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!


Jesus is the new hope, as will be seen in chapter 8.

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Paul is bound to serve God's law, but the sinful nature keeps him a slave to the law of sin. But God changes all of this in chapter 8. This is a summary statement of his problem, right before the solution.

RO 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

v. 1 We are free from the condemnation of our sin because of Christ Jesus. He has changed our whole relation to the law. Before we were condemned because we were under it for salvation. We had no righteousness but our own which was flawed.

v.2 Paul introduces yet another law. Let's summarize:

a. God's law, includes "do not covet"
b. law of sin and death – the rule that Paul discovered that he could not obey
c. The law of the Spirit of Life. The Holy Spirit overcomes the sinful nature.

Jesus set us free from the law of sin and death which was at work in our members. Notice, this was NOT parallel to God's law. It was the rule of sin that kept overcoming him.

v. 3 Jesus' sacrifice did what Paul could never do because of the sinful nature. He took care of Paul's sin problem, removed him from condemnation under the law, and gave him no condemnation. In so doing he also condemned sin–not the law–sin. Sin was always the problem. Not the law. Jesus kept the law, in the Spirit, not just in the letter. Thus he condemned sinful man, but also freed him by His sacrifice.

v. 4 It is those who live by the Spirit of God who TRULY KEEP the law. It's requirements are "fully met" in them. Paul is arguing that it is the one who keeps the Law by the Spirit that truly keeps it. He is not arguing that they don't keep it.

The angels in heaven do not keep the law as simply tablets of stone. It is inside them. The same is promised in the new covenant where the law is written on the mind and heart (Hebrews 8). We keep His commands and they "are not BURDENSOME" as John says. The point being, God has freed us from our sin, freed us from keeping the law for salvation, which we couldn't do. And He has also given us new power to keep the law the way it should always have been kept–from the heart. Paul is saying that in Christ the law is now RE-INTERNALIZED as it was always meant to be. Not tablets that condemn, but the Spirit of Christ living in us that empowers.

So it is true, the external tablets are no longer our focus. In fact, the law itself is not our focus. The focus is on Christ who forgives us, lives in us, and who makes our dead sinful nature alive by His Spirit.

Jesus didn't just come to save us from our PAST sin , but to overcome current sin, to fully live for Him.

RO 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

v. 5 There is a total difference between Paul in his previous life, with his mind fixated on the law's requirements, his faults, the desires of the flesh, and his later life, focused on Christ and His Spirit.

The Christian's mind is transformed to focus on Christ, seated above. To fix itself on heavenly things. The law in internalized, as it was meant to be. No wonder Paul considered his legalistic righteousness as rubbish.

v. 6-8 Those controlled by the sinful nature, depending on themselves for salvation, on their own effort for righteousness CANNOT PLEASE GOD. They cannot submit to God's law.

RO 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

v. 9 Those who have the Spirit though are not in the same condition as those who have the sinful nature. They are forgiven first, but they can also submit to God's law, they do please God.

v.10-11 We still have the sinful nature, but the Spirit of God will "also give life to" our "mortal bodies through His Spirit." In other words, God's Spirit has overcome our sinful nature, allowing us to please God.

We are not only forgiven, we are given new power to please God, not for salvation, but for HIM. It is internalized.

RO 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

v. 12-13 We DO have an obligation to not live according to the sinful nature, but to put to death the misdeeds (sins) of the body. We are still keeping the law, but not in the old way. The focus is not on the law, however, but on Christ who is our forgiveness, and power.

v. 14-17 We have a new outlook, a new Spirit, a new hope. We are no longer condemned by sin and afraid of God. We rejoice that we are sons, who serve out of love.

 

[Jon0388g]

Tall, your study is brilliant.

I have always had the same rough ideas, but this study has actually expressed them very well. Thanks!

So, just to clarify:

• The Bible confirms that we are dead to the Law, and alive to Christ.
• But, the Law itself is not dead, or is in any way to blame.
• Whilst we are alive to the flesh, the Law condemns us - because we are of flesh, and the Law is spiritual; we are helpless to obey it.
• Once we die to the Law of the the flesh, we become alive to the Law of the Spirit, which God says He writes on our hearts and minds, and which James says we are to be judged by (the Law of Liberty)

I've always thought that Paul talked of the Decalogue in two different lights. The Law of death, and the Law of life (8:2). Those who are in the flesh cannot please God (8:8), but those who are in the Spirit, can fulfil the requirement of the Law (8:4), by Christ's sacrifice (8:3).

The Law of death is such because 'All have sinned,' and thus are sentenced to death. The Law of life is such because 'the Law is spiritual,' and we who obey in 'spirit and in truth' are able to do so because now we are being 'led by the Spirit of God'.

Jon

 

[tall73]

Thank you Jon.

The only real aspect of disagreement I anticipate between to two parties is what comprises the law written on the heart. We all agree that it goes beyond the written in regards to murder, etc. The question is does it include the Sabbath.

Incidentally, Paul's statement about the law of the Spirit of Life is likely a reference to the Holy Spirit, which lives in us, and as an outworking bears fruit that fulfills the law in a way that the letter never could. So I wouldn't necessarily equate the law of life with the decalogue, but the actual outworking of the Spirit in us which more than fulfills the decalogue.

 

[tall73]

oops, wong thread!

 

[ChrisCarol]

Thank you Jon.

The only real aspect of disagreement I anticipate between to two parties is what comprises the law written on the heart. We all agree that it goes beyond the written in regards to murder, etc. The question is does it include the Sabbath.

Incidentally, Paul's statement about the law of the Spirit of Life is likely a reference to the Holy Spirit, which lives in us, and as an outworking bears fruit that fulfills the law in a way that the letter never could. So I wouldn't necessarily equate the law of life with the decalogue, but the actual outworking of the Spirit in us which more than fulfills the decalogue.

In light of your question of the Sabbath I would like to ask:

If we are to keep the Sabbath why did Jesus not command this?

If we are to keep the Sabbath how can we be sure of the proper way to do this in a day when we can fly 1/2 way around the world and be in another sundown the same day?

Thank you for the discussion.