Seven Churches - Why all the Ado?

[timothyu]

That is between them and God. If the Lord prompts us to speak, we speak, but that is all God expects us to do. A science teacher I know wears a T-Shirt that says, "I can teach you , but I can't understand for you."

That is why we are to sow the seeds of the Kingdom but not determine how they grow.

 

[AlexDTX]

That is why we are to sow the seeds of the Kingdom but not determine how they grow.

Agreed. And note, too, that in the parable of the sower and the seed, the sower did not choose good soil. He cast his seed on all kinds of ground.

 

[timothyu]

Agreed. And note, too, that in the parable of the sower and the seed, the sower did not choose good soil. He cast his seed on all kinds of ground.

That's right. No sitting at IHOP targeting certain people.

 

[rockytopva]

Agreed. And note, too, that in the parable of the sower and the seed, the sower did not choose good soil. He cast his seed on all kinds of ground.

There was once an uneducated old drunk named Rod Moxley who lived a wild life... And he gets saved! Rod volunteered to build a bus ministry at a Baptist church.

One day while riding my motorcycle on a Sunday morning I run into a bus. The bus doors open to the face of Rod Moxley who tells me that I need to be in church! That went on for a few weeks, and when I told my mother, that was where I would end up the next Sunday morning, at a place called the Fellowship Baptist Church.

While Rod Moxley was alive the church grew to the point it was packed out. We would have revivals and many would get saved. Our whole family ended up getting saved at this church and Rod Moxley would come over to our house and explain the plan of salvation to my parents, who would get saved as well. When Rod Moxley passed away the church began to go downhill, the church blames the good pastor and ends up getting a well educated pastor with advanced degrees. This church is now doing so poorly that nobody keeps up the web site.

The cure-all these days seems to be in the education. Many have their religion from the neck up, but there is no spiritual fire on the inside, except maybe the fire of the flesh. The word on good ground will make for a good heart as well as a sound mind. And even though there is no formal education, there is much profit from such an individual. In the old Methodist days they would call these folks Exhorters, and sometimes circuit riders.

Rod Moxley... a good example of the word on good ground! And of the Philadelphian church age!

 

[rockytopva]

A Southern Baptist teaching the church ages.... Wonderful!

“Each one of the churches of Asia represents a time period in the church dispensation, this dispensation of grace: the first one, Ephesus; the second one, Smyrna: the third one, Pergamos; the fourth one, Thyatira; the fifth one, Sardis; the sixth one, Philadelphia; and the last one, Laodicea. And at the end of that time period, at the end of the church age, the church is taken up; it is “raptured.” God’s people are in heaven and now on the earth is tribulation.‘ - https://wacriswell.com/sermons/1980/the-seven-mighty-miracles-at-the-end-of-the-world1/

 

[AlexDTX]

The cure-all these days seems to be in the education. Many have their religion from the neck up, but there is no spiritual fire on the inside, except maybe the fire of the flesh.

Do you cut and paste this story. It seems almost word for word from your prior telling of this story.

In the conversation with timothyu we were talking about sharing the gospel with everyone, and I see, your story fits the topic. Andrew Wommack, another Pentecostal teacher once shared the story that he decided not to share the gospel with someone who looked like they would simply reject it anyway when the Lord spoke to him. He said to Andrew, You don't have the right to reject the Gospel for them. That was profound. If we share and they reject, that is between them and God. If we choose not to share because we think they won't hear, then we did not give them the chance to reject it on their own. We then step into Ezekiel 3:18 territory.

Eze_3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

 

[timothyu]

Wear a t-shirt that says 'Ask Me About Christianity... Not the Religion'.

 

[parousia70]

I believe once the book is shut, after the last conversation to Christianity, and sealed with the last seal, it will be time to put the first four chapters of Revelation behind us!

No such thing as "the last conversion to Christianity".

Isaiah 9:7
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

Revelation 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

There will forever be an increase in the number of Christians expanding the Government and Peace of Christ, as there will forever be those who thirst that come and drink from the water of Life.

 

[timothyu]

There will forever be an increase in the number of Christians expanding the Government and Peace of Christ, as there will forever be those who thirst that come and drink from the water of Life.

But they won't be in the governments and institutions of man.

 

[parousia70]

But they won't be in the governments and institutions of man.

Not sure I follow...

Are there those today Governed By Christ who are NOT in the governments and institutions of man?

Its clearly not mutually exclusive.

 

[timothyu]

Are there those today Governed By Christ who are NOT in the governments and institutions of man?

Of course.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?

Your interpretation is what is known as

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held agenda.

Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. Exegesis is drawing out text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text. Thus exegesis tends to be objective; and eisegesis, highly subjective.

Eisegesis - Wikipedia


The Ado comes from the original context of the passage. The candelabra in the passage was a reference to a prominent symbol of the Second temple the candle stick used in the altar of the Second temple, the thing that took the place of the Ark of the Covenant after that artifact disappeared.


1) Your interpretation is questionable because at the time the candles in the text actually related to 7 contemporary congregations.

2) I think it is hard to paint all Christians of a certain age with just one broad brush stroke.

3) This sort of interpretation was unknown to earlier Christians, even Protestants, until Darby invented Dispensationalism in the early 1800s.

4) Bible passages have a specific historical and cultural context if you ignore that context then funny things tend to happen. It's the old saying/joke about "What happens when we assume...."

 

[parousia70]

Of course.

Can you name any?

 

[timothyu]

Can you name any?

Not sure I follow your train of thought here.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe the church congregations as seven....

Look how different the first two are in that the Messianic would separate themselves from the Gentile...

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. - Galatians 2

Seven congregations.... Messianic, Orientalist Orthodox, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Revived, and Charismatic. Here just today a member posts, “Not to be rude, but this is the Orthodox page. Please hold your comments if you are not Orthodox. Thank you.” And similarly of other congregations as well. The seven congregations are so different that at times they don’t even like one another!

 

[parousia70]

Not sure I follow your train of thought here.

I'll try to clarify.

I made the statement:
There will forever be an increase in the number of Christians expanding the Government and Peace of Christ, as there will forever be those who thirst that come and drink from the water of Life.

To which you responded:
But they won't be in the governments and institutions of man.

So I then asked:
"Are there those today Governed By Christ who are NOT in the governments and institutions of man?"

You answered:
"of course"

So I asked:
"can you name any"?

So, can you?

Who are these people today you claim are presently governed by Christ that are not part of the governments and institutions of Man?

What are their names?
One or two examples will do.

Unless you didn't mean living, breathing people?

 

[timothyu]

Are you looking for celebrity type people, well known, those who stand out? In that case I say none that I have seen. There are very few who follow the Gospel of the Kingdom in mainstream Christianity. There are a number on these threads though, average Joes who have seen past the facade.

 

[rockytopva]

As I believe all churches as unique I do not fault anyone for not going along with my interpretation of the seven churches. It was nice, however, to have read of one educated who believes the churches as I do.

Dr. WA Criswell, preached since he was 17, lived to be 92, got his Doctorates degree at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, was senior pastor of the First Baptist Church of Dallas for five decades, in the late 1970s led the "Conservative Resurgence" within the Southern Baptist Convention, founded a bible college, and served two terms as president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He states his view on the seven churches as such....

“Each one of the churches of Asia represents a time period in the church dispensation, this dispensation of grace: the first one, Ephesus; the second one, Smyrna: the third one, Pergamos; the fourth one, Thyatira; the fifth one, Sardis; the sixth one, Philadelphia; and the last one, Laodicea. And at the end of that time period, at the end of the church age, the church is taken up; it is “raptured.” God’s people are in heaven and now on the earth is tribulation.‘ - The Seven Mighty Miracles at the End of the World - Dr. WA Criswell

“This church at Laodicea represents, in this book of prophecy, the last period of church history. All seven of them depict periods, areas, ages, developments, in the story of the churches of Christ. The Ephesian period represents the apostolic church: the church of Christ and the apostles. The Smyrnan church represents the church of martyrdom, ground under the iron hand of the Roman government. The Pergamean church represents the church of the establishment, when Constantine married the church to the world. The Thyatiran church is the church of scarlet and silk and crimson and gold, representing the oracular infallibility of those who propose to speak for God. The Sardian church represents the church of the Dark Ages, in which night there are stars of the Reformation that shine. The Philadelphian church represents the church of missions and evangelization, the great outreach of the people of God as they preach the gospel to the world. And the Laodicean church represents the last church before Christ comes.” - Dr WA Criswell - The Laodicean Church