Seven Churches - Why all the Ado?

rockytopva

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This is a futuristic book to show God’s servants futuristic things...

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:- Revelation 1:1

Along with a blessing to those who read and understand....

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. - Revelation 1:3
 
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martymonster

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You know, I gotta say, learning that Revelation could be interpreted symbolically or spiritually was one of the most eye-opening days of my life. Seriously.

It's not just Revelation, it's every book in the Bible....and there's no "could" about it, it is to be interpreted that way.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 
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Daniel Martinovich

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The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?

254811_e2605e7ea7d44a55b55ec8f9edea64a9.png

254811_e2605e7ea7d44a55b55ec8f9edea64a9.png
Really big problem for the so called Bible literalists who pride themselves in "taking the Bible literally." Not true though. They pick and choose what they want to be literal or illustrative to fit the Bibles prophecy into their man made construct. The seven church age "theory" is a perfect example. If there are seven church ages. Then Jesus told six of those ages he was coming in their time, but didn't.....that is if one thinks the coming of the Lord is a one time event in the future. So its not even a theory. Just a failed attempt to read and comprehend literature.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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You know, I gotta say, learning that Revelation could be interpreted symbolically or spiritually was one of the most eye-opening days of my life. Seriously.
Well, to say it more precisely. It uses illustrations to prophecy the future.
 
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rockytopva

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I have given my best interpretation. The bible, especially Revelation, is written with much metaphor. I cannot believe one can study Revelation, and the bible, and see the same perspective as another fellow believer. You will agree and disagree on the interpretation of different passages...

John Bunyan was a great writer in metaphors/parables and he explains the use of them in his "The Barren Fig Tree" work (http://www.chapellib.../bun-barren.pdf):

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. - Luke 13:6-9

In parables there are two things to be taken notice of, and to be inquired into of them that read.

First, The metaphors made use of.
Second, The doctrine or mysteries couched under such metaphors.

The metaphors in this parable are,
1. A certain man;
2. A vineyard;
3. A fig-tree, barren or fruitless;
4. A dresser;
5. Three years;
6. Digging and dunging, &c.

The doctrine, or mystery, couched under these words is to show us what is like to become of a fruitless or formal professor. For,

1. By the man in the parable is meant God the Father (Luke 15:11).
2. By the vineyard, his church (Isa 5:7).
3. By the fig-tree, a professor.
4. By the dresser, the Lord Jesus.
5. By the fig-trees barrenness, the professors fruitlessness.
6. By the three years, the patience of God that for a time he extendeth to barren professors.
7. This calling to the dresser of the vineyard to cut it down, is to show the outcries of justice against fruitless professors.
8. The dressers interceding is to show how the Lord Jesus steps in, and takes hold of the head of his Fathers axe, to stop, or at least to defer, the present execution of a barren fig-tree.
9. The dressers desire to try to make the fig-tree fruitful, is to show you how unwilling he is that even a barren fig-tree should yet be barren, and perish.
10. His digging about it, and dunging of it, is to show his willingness to apply gospel helps to this barren professor, if haply he may be fruitful.
11. The supposition that the fig-tree may yet continue fruitless, is to show, that when Christ Jesus hath done all, there are some professors will abide barren and fruitless.
12. The determination upon this supposition, at last to cut it down, is a certain prediction of such professors unavoidable and eternal damnation.

But to take this parable into pieces, and to discourse more particularly, though with all brevity, upon all the parts thereof. A certain MAN had a fig-tree planted in his vineyard. The MAN, I told you, is to present us with God the Father; by which similitude he is often set out in the New Testament. Observe then, that it is no new thing, if you find in Gods church barren fig-trees, fruitless professors; even as here you see is a tree, a fruitless tree, a fruitless fig-tree in the vineyard.

Fruit is not so easily brought forth as a profession is got into; it is easy for a man to clothe himself with a fair show in the flesh, to word it, and say, Be thou warmed and filled with the best. It is no hard thing to do these with other things; but to be fruitful, to bring forth fruit to God, this doth not every tree, no not every fig-tree that stands in the vineyard of God. Those words also, Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away, assert the same thing (John 15:2). There are branches in Christ, in Christs body mystical, which is his church, his vineyard, that bear not fruit, wherefore the hand of God is to take them away: I looked for grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes, that is, no fruit at all that was acceptable with God (Isa 5:4). Again, Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself, none to God; he is without fruit to God (Hosea 10:1). All these, with many more, show us the truth of the observation, and that Gods church may be cumbered with fruitless fig-trees, with barren professors.
 
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rockytopva

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"There are branches in Christ, in Christs body mystical, which is his church." - John Bunyan

I also declare, by means of this thread, as Christs church mystical, or, by definition of the word, "inspiring a sense of spiritual mystery, awe, and fascination."
 
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Dale

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The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?

254811_e2605e7ea7d44a55b55ec8f9edea64a9.png

254811_e2605e7ea7d44a55b55ec8f9edea64a9.png


Rockytopva:
<< Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry >>


Can you give me one reason to believe that the seven churches in Revelation were intended to correspond to different time periods?
There are other interpretations. We can just read them for what we can learn from them, without trying to associate them with churches founded a thousand years later.
 
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rockytopva

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Rockytopva:
<< Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry >>


Can you give me one reason to believe that the seven churches in Revelation were intended to correspond to different time periods?
There are other interpretations. We can just read them for what we can learn from them, without trying to associate them with churches founded a thousand years later.
I have given my best interpretation.
 
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Dave L

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The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?

254811_e2605e7ea7d44a55b55ec8f9edea64a9.png

254811_e2605e7ea7d44a55b55ec8f9edea64a9.png
Are we possibly turning Revelation into a giant Rorschach Test taking these liberties scripture says nothing about concerning the 7 Churches of Asia in John's day?
 
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AlexDTX

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The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?

254811_e2605e7ea7d44a55b55ec8f9edea64a9.png

254811_e2605e7ea7d44a55b55ec8f9edea64a9.png
Hindsight seems to be 20/20 vision, but is it possible Christ was only addressing those 7 churches for that time?
 
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A Realist

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Hindsight seems to be 20/20 vision
Therein lies the issue, since some folks seems to think that those letters are all "foresight".

One could make a book of all the conflicting and supposed "spirit led" interpretations of Revelation.
 
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AlexDTX

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Therein lies the issue, since some folks seems to think that those letters are all "foresight".

One could make a book of all the conflicting and supposed "spirit led" interpretations of Revelation.
It is a nice pidgeon hole for interpretation. It's just that the longer I walk with Christ the less Christ fits in pidgeon holes. The admonition of the 7 churches are warnings that apply to every generation.
 
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parousia70

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The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1
Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

Rather, Each of those "just ordinary Churches" had unique, contemporary situations that John testified were to "soon" be directly addressed by Christ's coming to them:

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Revelation 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Revelation 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to be put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Revelation 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Revelation 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Revelation 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent it appears they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

I could add many other things, but this will do for now. It is clear that the scriptures contain the historic record of the tribulation period, and they explain the relief that Christ's Parousia brought to the churches around the empire, precisely as they were promised. Christ did not fail them.
 
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parousia70

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Hindsight seems to be 20/20 vision, but is it possible Christ was only addressing those 7 churches for that time?

Not only Possible, but textually demanded...
Are there universal truths that can be pastorally applied to the church throughout the ages... of course, but like so much of scripture, it was meant to FIRSTLY, directly apply to the original audience to whom the letters were directly addressed, and FIRST delivered to.

Any interpretive system that seeks to REMOVE the original, targeted audience from ANY application of the passage, as the OP's interpretation seeks to do, should be immediately rejected by any honest Bible expositor.
 
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AlexDTX

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Not only Possible, but textually demanded...
Are there universal truths that can be pastorally applied to the church throughout the ages... of course, but like so much of scripture, it was meant to FIRSTLY, directly apply to the original audience to whom the letters were directly addressed, and FIRST delivered to.

Any interpretive system that seeks to REMOVE the original, targeted audience from ANY application of the passage, as the OP's interpretation seeks to do, should be immediately rejected by any honest Bible expositor.
Very well said, Parousia. Although, I do not dismiss the additional possible applications. But, as you said, every letter was written for the target audience of that time and generation. The Holy Spirit had other uses for those letters, but the people who wrote them did not, in my opinion.
 
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rockytopva

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I had a second grade teacher by the name of Miss Chickadance. I have often thought that if I could go back to those times, with the eyesalve applied to this Laodiceans eyes I would....

1. Avoid the evils of the generations
2. Avoid the music of the day
3. Study and do well in school
4. Sit with my Pentecostal grandfather in church
5. Enjoy the Baptist conferences
6. Do well in continued education
7. Find a good company to work and would know what to study for.
8. Enjoy more the times me and my parents would visit The Holy Family Catholic church in Saginaw, Michigan. Which at that time had monks, nuns, priests, and well dressed people in a gothic setting.

The Holy Family Catholic church in Saginaw, Michigan. Just walking through the doors for me as a child was an incredible experience!

a1806aef84a478b9380c4022c842b5fc.jpg
 
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James Honigman

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It is not commonly taught, but our Beloved had problems with 5 of those churches. He was only happy with 2 of them because they TAUGHT the same thing. Smyrna and Philadelphia taught how the Jewish people had been infiltrated by Satan over the years, some of them who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. This had happened before the New Testament was written and it is still a fact today. Satan's children are among us and they will be gathered and thrown into the fire when this flesh age ends. Our Beloved wanted this taught, and today, it is not taught. I had better explain that not all Jews are Satan's children, only a small fraction, and the devil's children are now throughout the whole world. I'm a Levite, and don't wish to be stoned!
 
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rockytopva

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I had a second grade teacher by the name of Miss Chickadance. I have often thought that if I could go back to those times, with the eyesalve applied to this Laodiceans eyes I would....

1. Avoid the evils of the generations
2. Avoid the music of the day
3. Study and do well in school
4. Sit with my Pentecostal grandfather in church
5. Enjoy the Baptist conferences
6. Do well in continued education
7. Find a good company to work and would know what to study for.
8. Enjoy more the times me and my parents would visit The Holy Family Catholic church in Saginaw, Michigan. Which at that time had monks, nuns, priests, and well dressed people in a gothic setting.

The Holy Family Catholic church in Saginaw, Michigan. Just walking through the doors for me as a child was an incredible experience!

a1806aef84a478b9380c4022c842b5fc.jpg
I cannot tell you the troubles a lot of our churches have had. I have also talked to people who claim to members of a church, but when you visit, you never see them there.

We have a local church called the Gateway Baptist church (country pastor) where I met a many a fine friend at work. They had a pastor change (one with a Masters degree) and everyone fell out of the church, now no one I know goes there.

We also have a local Word of Faith church that a decade ago it seemed that every good Christian I knew went there. We probably had two dozen of their membership at work. Of all the time I knew the people there I did not hear the first negative word out of their mouth. The pastor moved to Florida now no one I know goes there.

In my Pentecostal church there was at one time good revivals and everything ran well. Our pastor left, we got several unstable pastors, and the church was might near run into the ground. Now few I know goes there.

In our local Catholic church, Saint Mary's, they had a large following. The pastor built a large new sanctuary about 10 miles from Tech campus. The problem was it was a little too far for the students and they did not follow the flock to the church. The pastor left after enduring the stress of it all. Now few I know goes there.

I see a lot of unstableness in the Christian world in this day and time. I feel for any of the pastors out there trying to get something good going in the communities. And because of the unstableness I do not recall that I have ever recommended any person to go to this church or the other. I would be afraid to recommend anyone leave an established church feeling that they would most probably go from one bad circumstance to another. All of this is the effects of the Laodicean church age.

Saint Mary's Catholic in Blacksburg. Beautiful church! Last time I went there only a few showed up, and the only leadership I was aware of was an African priest who I had a hard time understanding. They at one time boasted 700 families. All of this is the effects of the Laodicean church age.
 
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