Seven Churches - Why all the Ado?

[timothyu]

The admonition of the 7 churches are warnings that apply to every generation.

Who wrote letters to these churches prior? Were their contents in question?

 

[charsan]

Well then, take me to school!

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

Why weep over the book?

I don't weep over a book that has nothing to do with us.

You're not an evangelical? I am! I suppose it means different things to different people...

true

 

[AlexDTX]

Who wrote letters to these churches prior? Were their contents in question?

Your question is non sequitur. The topic is John's letter on behalf of Christ to the 7 churches of Asia Minor. The OP postulates that the 7 churches represent 7 ages, which they might. I merely pointed out that Jesus, through John, was addressing the 7 specific churches of that generation, but the admonitions apply to all believers in all generations.

John, apparently, had taken oversight of the congregations in Asia Minor, so for the Lord to speak through him to them was a natural selection.

 

[timothyu]

Did anyone speak to them prior?

 

[AlexDTX]

Did anyone speak to them prior?

Probably, but it is not recorded. It is like the Lord to have people speak on his behalf when his children don't listen to him.

 

[rockytopva]

I cannot tell you the troubles a lot of our churches have had. I have also talked to people who claim to members of a church, but when you visit, you never see them there.

We have a local church called the Gateway Baptist church (country pastor) where I met a many a fine friend at work. They had a pastor change (one with a Masters degree) and everyone fell out of the church, now no one I know goes there.

We also have a local Word of Faith church that a decade ago it seemed that every good Christian I knew went there. We probably had two dozen of their membership at work. Of all the time I knew the people there I did not hear the first negative word out of their mouth. The pastor moved to Florida now no one I know goes there.

In my Pentecostal church there was at one time good revivals and everything ran well. Our pastor left, we got several unstable pastors, and the church was might near run into the ground. Now few I know goes there.

In our local Catholic church, Saint Mary's, they had a large following. The pastor built a large new sanctuary about 10 miles from Tech campus. The problem was it was a little too far for the students and they did not follow the flock to the church. The pastor left after enduring the stress of it all. Now few I know goes there.

I see a lot of unstableness in the Christian world in this day and time. I feel for any of the pastors out there trying to get something good going in the communities. And because of the unstableness I do not recall that I have ever recommended any person to go to this church or the other. I would be afraid to recommend anyone leave an established church feeling that they would most probably go from one bad circumstance to another. All of this is the effects of the Laodicean church age.

Saint Mary's Catholic in Blacksburg. Beautiful church! Last time I went there only a few showed up, and the only leadership I was aware of was an African priest who I had a hard time understanding. They at one time boasted 700 families. All of this is the effects of the Laodicean church age.

If you guys live in an area where you have not noticed these changes you are doing well!

 

[parousia70]

Did anyone speak to them prior?

According to the Muratorian Canon, Paul also writes to only 7 Churches - the rub from that is, the Muratorian Canon states that Paul wrote to those 7 Churches AFTER John did, which places the Timing of the Penning of the Revelation PRIOR to the Completion of Paul's Ministry...

Note on the Muratorian Canon: Sometime between A.D. 170 and 200, someone drew up a list of canonical books. This list, known as the Muratorian Canon, is the oldest Latin church document of Rome, and of very great importance for the history of the canon. The witness of this manuscript, which is from the very era of Irenaeus and just prior to Clement of Alexandria, virtually demands the early date for Revelation. The relevant portion of the document states that "the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name" The writer of the Canon clearly teaches that John preceded Paul in writing letters to seven churches. Yet, church historians are agreed that Paul died before A.D. 70, either in A.D. 67 or 68.

 

[parousia70]

If you guys live in an area where you have not noticed these changes you are doing well!

Looks like most of the World is doing well then, for your personal, localized, anecdotal observations do not reflect the actual global trend:

According to "The Oxford Handbook of Religious Conversion", Christianity adds about 65.1 million people annually due to factors such as birth rate and religious conversion, while losing 27.4 million people annually due to factors such as death rate and religious apostasy. (That's a net global, annual gain of 37.7 million new Christians, year after year after year, keeping it the #1 fastest spreading religion on earth!) Most of the net growth in the numbers of Christians is in Africa, Latin America and Asia.

Nations Rise and Fall, and any gain or loss of Christians in the USA is apparently irrelevant as a defining factor in the continuing, unabated spread of Christianity throughout the World, in fulfillment of Isaiah 9:7, Ephesians 3:21, Matthew 28:19-20)

As it has been true for almost 2000 years now, there are more Christians today than there were yesterday, and there will be more tomorrow than there are today.
Amen & Hallelujah!

 

[timothyu]

It is like the Lord to have people speak on his behalf when his children don't listen to him.

So we can expect a spokesperson here soon then ?

 

[timothyu]

the Muratorian Canon states that Paul wrote to those 7 Churches AFTER John did,

It is my understanding Paul wrote his letters in the 50's while Revelation was a product of the 90's

 

[AlexDTX]

So we can expect a spokesperson here soon then ?

Spokes people are already here speaking for those who have ears to hear.

 

[parousia70]

It is my understanding Paul wrote his letters in the 50's while Revelation was a product of the 90's

That is the understanding of many.
The Muratorian Fragment seems to cast doubt, or at least call into question, such a conclusion, for how could Paul be "following a rule set by John" if John set the rule 40 years later?

There is only one single statement by Irenaeus that is used as evidence of the claim that Revelation was penned in the 90's, while the internal evidence, as well as other external evidence, points clearly toward a mid-late 60's penning. For sure the majority of published scholars on the topic favor the 60's date.

 

[timothyu]

Spokes people are already here speaking for those who have ears to hear.

Few listen.

 

[timothyu]

There is only one single statement by Irenaeus that is used as evidence of the claim that Revelation was penned in the 90's, while the internal evidence, as well as other external evidence, points clearly toward a mid-late 60's penning. For sure the majority of published scholars on the topic favor the 60's date.

That still puts John after Paul and no doubt there was still disagreement between the two that Christianity has sought to clean or cover up.

 

[~Zao~]

That still puts John after Paul and no doubt there was still disagreement between the two that Christianity has sought to clean or cover up.

Maybe what puts Paul first is the legal arguments he uses but too many are on a grade to his thinking, having taken the steps to understanding only to an elementary level. But John had already tossed out legalism in favour of direct access to the Father.

 

[timothyu]

Maybe what puts Paul first

I was speaking chronological writing.

 

[rockytopva]

In reading these replies I don’t believe any of us could come up with an interpretation that would be universally accepted here on the CF. I would think it hard to find two to find the same conclusions. What I do is read the replies and see if I can learn anything from them.

 

[rockytopva]

In reading these replies I don’t believe any of us could come up with an interpretation that would be universally accepted here on the CF. I would think it hard to find two to find the same conclusions. What I do is read the replies and see if I can learn anything from them.

I believe once the book is shut, after the last conversation to Christianity, and sealed with the last seal, it will be time to put the first four chapters of Revelation behind us!

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations - From Messianic to Charismatic
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

 

[~Zao~]

I believe once the book is shut, after the last conversation to Christianity, and sealed with the last seal, it will be time to put the first four chapters of Revelation behind us!

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations - From Messianic to Charismatic
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

The lamb opened the book even tho the elders said it was the lion who would.

 

[AlexDTX]

Few listen.

That is between them and God. If the Lord prompts us to speak, we speak, but that is all God expects us to do. A science teacher I know wears a T-Shirt that says, "I can teach you , but I can't understand for you."