Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

FreeGrace2

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I’m confused the people I mentioned don’t do anything except believe. They haven’t changed their life at all. They think they just have to believe and can continue to live their same sinful life without repenting or producing fruit and they will be saved. The truth is they will be very surprised when they call Lord Lord and Jesus says ‘away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41‬
This is a very misguided understanding of Matt 25. This isn't about believers who had no fruit, as it seems you surmise. It's about unbelievers; those who never believed.

I've frequently shared 24 verses about how to have salvation or eternal life, and NONE of them mentions any works at all.

So your opinion is wrong.

And, there are NO verses that say one must have faith AND works to be saved.

Or show me one.

And consider 2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The point here is the result of "having NOT believed". The tense is aorist, which means in a point of time.

Do you understand the significance of this? It's not about works, or continuing to believe, but HAVING believed.

So, the verse is clear: those who HAVE BELIEVED (past tense) are NOT condemned.

Basically, the same thing Jesus said in John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never, no, not ever, perish.

So, to review:

1. John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 teach that one possess eternal life WHEN one believes in Christ.

2. In John 10:28 Jesus guarantees that WHEN one believes, and possesses eternal life, they shall never, no, not ever, perish.

3. 2 Thess 2:12 tells us that those who have believed will NOT be condemned.

Now, if these verses don't teach or say what I am claiming they say, please address those verses and explain with evidence what they actually say.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes each of us who have obeyed the Gospel by repenting have an inheritance.
According to Eph 1:14 it is guaranteed. Which you don't believe, from all your posts.

We all have the hope of inheriting eternal life.
Define "hope" here.
 
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JLB777

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According to Eph 1:14 it is guaranteed. Which you don't believe, from all your posts.

Whenever you decide to quote the scripture you are referencing with it's context, we can all discuss what is being said.


Define "hope" here.


Just as soon as you define what lost means from Luke 15, since you have avoided this question repeatedly.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

“Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.
“But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.” ’
“And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
“But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
“Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’
“But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. So he answered and said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’
“And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ” Luke 15:4-32



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Lost - Greek - Strong's # 622 - apollymi


  1. to destroy
    1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin

    2. render useless

    3. to kill

    4. to declare that one must be put to death

    5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

    6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
  2. to destroy
    1. to lose






JLB
 
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JLB777

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have an inheritance and the hope of eternal life,


Yes I agree with this part.

Amen.



Paul explains -


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25


  • But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.


What is "it" that Paul says we are eagerly waiting for with perseverance?




JLB
 
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mailmandan

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Yes I agree with this part.

Amen.



Paul explains -


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25


  • But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.


What is "it" that Paul says we are eagerly waiting for with perseverance?




JLB
The redemption of our bodies (vs. 23) — glorification, which is the 3rd tense to salvation.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
According to Eph 1:14 it is guaranteed. Which you don't believe, from all your posts.
Whenever you decide to quote the scripture you are referencing with it's context, we can all discuss what is being said.
This is what I do when a poster cites a verse and makes a point about the verse that I don't agree with. I will quote the verse that was cited, and THEN prove that the point being made is false by explaining WHY it is false.

Something that you never do. Apparently, you are comfortable with demonstrating your laziness by simply making these snarky and worthless posts.

Prove to me and this thread that Eph 1:14 doesn't contain any guarantee of the inheritance of those having believed. I dare you.

Just as soon as you define what lost means from Luke 15, since you have avoided this question repeatedly.
Actually, I did define it. But you aren't interested in facts. Or anyone's opinion except your own.
 
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BNR32FAN

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There will be many unbelievers (who thought they were believers yet trusted in their works for salvation) who will be very surprised when they call Lord, Lord and Jesus says, I NEVER knew you. Depart from me you who practice lawlessness (Matthew 7:22-23).

First of all your taking that verse way out of context unlike my example of people who are not producing fruit is in the same context your example is about people who are breaking the law. We’re not discussing people who are breaking the law. But keep reading your almost to the point of His message. You stopped at 23 let’s read the next 3 verses to where Jesus ends His sermon on the mount so we can get the rest of the message.

““Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:24-27‬

Again Jesus is emphasizing on obedience not just believing.
 
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JLB777

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FreeGrace2 said:
According to Eph 1:14 it is guaranteed. Which you don't believe, from all your posts.

This is what I do when a poster cites a verse and makes a point about the verse that I don't agree with. I will quote the verse that was cited, and THEN prove that the point being made is false by explaining WHY it is false.

Something that you never do. Apparently, you are comfortable with demonstrating your laziness by simply making these snarky and worthless posts.

Prove to me and this thread that Eph 1:14 doesn't contain any guarantee of the inheritance of those having believed. I dare you.


Actually, I did define it. But you aren't interested in facts. Or anyone's opinion except your own.



More opinion, with no scripture.


Those who refuse to quote scripture have something to hide.


Stop Making excuses and define lost from Luke 15 -



“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

“Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.
“But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.” ’
“And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
“But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
“Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’
“But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. So he answered and said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’
“And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ” Luke 15:4-32



No longer in the possession of the former owner.


Lost - Greek - Strong's # 622 - apollymi


  1. to destroy
    1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin

    2. render useless

    3. to kill

    4. to declare that one must be put to death

    5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

    6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
  2. to destroy
    1. to lose






JLB
 
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JLB777

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The redemption of our bodies (vs. 23) — glorification, which is the 3rd tense to salvation.


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25


Paul says in the this verse we were saved in this hope.


Saved in the subject of this verse.


He plainly connects saved with hope: we were saved in this hope

As He continues to explain his position, the hope he is referring to continues to be connected to "saved".


  • But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.


Paul is using the language of faith to describe our present condition of "hope", for the future reality of our salvation, that we are eagerly waiting for, with perseverance.



Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1



Now the question to you is: If the bible says we are waiting for our salvation with perseverance, do you understand what this means?


Here is a couple of hints:


And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28



  • for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.


And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts. Romans 13:11-14



again


receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9



Faith in Christ for salvation means we have the hope of salvation not yet seen!






JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
According to Eph 1:14 it is guaranteed. Which you don't believe, from all your posts.

This is what I do when a poster cites a verse and makes a point about the verse that I don't agree with. I will quote the verse that was cited, and THEN prove that the point being made is false by explaining WHY it is false.

Something that you never do. Apparently, you are comfortable with demonstrating your laziness by simply making these snarky and worthless posts.

Prove to me and this thread that Eph 1:14 doesn't contain any guarantee of the inheritance of those having believed. I dare you.
More opinion, with no scripture.
Please explain to the thread why you reject Eph 1:14 as Scripture, and just an opinion.

Those who refuse to quote scripture have something to hide.
If I'm hiding something by not quoting the verses (which I've quoted SO MANY TIMES ALREADY), why not just go ahead and quote the verse I cite and then show how I have "hidden" something.

But really, that is just a smokescreen, a diversion, in order to try to move the discussion away from all the FACTS that refute your own opinions.

No longer in the possession of the former owner.
So, who's the new owner, since you seem to think there is one in the 3 parables in Luke 15?
 
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Danthemailman

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For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25

Paul says in the this verse we were saved in this hope.

Saved in the subject of this verse.

He plainly connects saved with hope: we were saved in this hope

As He continues to explain his position, the hope he is referring to continues to be connected to "saved".
  • But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Paul is using the language of faith to describe our present condition of "hope", for the future reality of our salvation, that we are eagerly waiting for, with perseverance.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Now the question to you is: If the bible says we are waiting for our salvation with perseverance, do you understand what this means?
I understand that believers "have been saved" from the PENALTY of sin (JUSTIFICATION - Romans 5:1) and "will be saved" from the PRESENCE of sin (GLORIFICATION - Romans 8:23). Do you understand this? Believers are not still waiting to be saved through faith (JUSTIFICATION). John 5:24 - “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, (present tense) and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." :oldthumbsup:

Here is a couple of hints:

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28
Don't confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture or justification with glorification.

for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
Salvation in the third tense -- glorification.

And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts. Romans 13:11-14

again

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Faith in Christ for salvation means we have the hope of salvation not yet seen!
Those who have been saved through faith (present tense with ongoing results - Ephesians 2:8) have the hope/expectation of what is sure (certain); of glorification/the end of their faith--the salvation of their souls. Understanding that there are three tenses to salvation. 1. Justification 2. Ongoing sanctification 3. Glorification; may help to clear up any confusion. ;)
 
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Danthemailman

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First of all your taking that verse way out of context unlike my example of people who are not producing fruit is in the same context your example is about people who are breaking the law. We’re not discussing people who are breaking the law. But keep reading your almost to the point of His message. You stopped at 23 let’s read the next 3 verses to where Jesus ends His sermon on the mount so we can get the rest of the message.
Regardless, UNBELIEF is the root cause of both situations. Apart from the blood of Christ and the righteousness of God which is by faith, we would ALL be seen in the eyes of God as law breakers (Romans 3:23). Trying our best to clean up our act and produce as many works as possible is not the solution to our sin problem. Jesus Christ is the solution to our sin problem (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 4:12; Romans 3:22-28; 6:23 etc..).

““Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:24-27‬
You also confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. In Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands - descriptive of believers. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses - descriptive of unbelievers.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him (Matthew 7:21; John 6:40). The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

Again Jesus is emphasizing on obedience not just believing.
You continue to imply that man is saved through faith + obedience/works. That is not what the Bible teaches (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and good works which follow are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.
 
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EmSw

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You also confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. In Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands - descriptive of believers. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses - descriptive of unbelievers.

Have you actually read those verses? They say nothing about believers and unbelievers. This is what you have added to satisfy yourself and your beliefs.

Here is what it actually says -

Matthew 7
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

You will find nothing about believers and unbelievers.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him (Matthew 7:21; John 6:40). The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.


Again, you have added what isn't there. Nothing is said about self-righteousness, nor outward works in those verses. It does say these were workers of iniquity.

The rock which one builds is Jesus Himself, not His righteousness that men want to call their own. The sand is not self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

Again, it doesn't say those who believe Him are the wise ones. The wise are those who hear Jesus' saying and DO THEM! Why do you not believe what it says? Read it, it's there for everyone to read.

The foolish are not those who twist Jesus' words and act on their own self-righteousness. The foolish are those who hear Jesus' words and DO NOT DO THEM! Read it. Don't add your own words to what Jesus said.

You continue to imply that man is saved through faith + obedience/works. That is not what the Bible teaches (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and good works which follow are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

So, how is one saved if no fruit is present? How is one saved if there is no root?

If I ask you what if no fruit is present after one believes, you will probably say they didn't really believe in the first place. So tell me how one believes without fruit present.

You are saying it is faith + fruit which saves a man, which is no different than saying it is faith + works of charity. Use the rationality you have been so graciously given.
 
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Danthemailman

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Have you actually read those verses? They say nothing about believers and unbelievers. This is what you have added to satisfy yourself and your beliefs.
Throughout the Bible, we find descriptive language of believers and unbelievers. Just because the words "believers" and "unbelievers" are not specifically spelled out, does not mean these verses have nothing to do with believers and unbelievers. In Matthew 7:17, Jesus mentions good trees that bear good fruit and bad trees that bear bad fruit, yet the words "believers" and "unbelievers" are not specifically spelled out, so does this mean that these verses have nothing to do with believers and unbelievers? What about in Matthew 13:24-30, where we find the parable of the wheat and tares. Now the words "believers" and "unbelievers" are not specifically spelled out, so should we assume this parable has nothing to do with believers and unbelievers either? I think you get the picture. ;)

Here is what it actually says -
I know what it actually says and means.

Matthew 7
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Do you understand what rock and sand stand for? We are talking about foundations.

You will find nothing about believers and unbelievers.
So you actually believe that neither believers or unbelievers are being described in Matthew 7:24-27? Really?

Again, you have added what isn't there. Nothing is said about self-righteousness, nor outward works in those verses. It does say these were workers of iniquity.
So workers of iniquity are not unbelievers or self righteous and do not perform outward works but genuine good works? o_O

The rock which one builds is Jesus Himself, not His righteousness that men want to call their own.
Jesus Christ is the rock and believers are found in Him, not having their own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith. (Philippians 3:9)

The sand is not self-righteousness.
The sand is not the rock and if Jesus is not the foundation, apart from the righteousness which is from God by faith, all you have left is self righteousness.

Again, it doesn't say those who believe Him are the wise ones. The wise are those who hear Jesus' saying and DO THEM! Why do you not believe what it says? Read it, it's there for everyone to read.
I know what it says and who do you believe are DESCRIBED as wise and hear Jesus' saying and DO THEM? Believers or unbelievers? You are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is.

The foolish are not those who twist Jesus' words and act on their own self-righteousness. The foolish are those who hear Jesus' words and DO NOT DO THEM! Read it. Don't add your own words to what Jesus said.
Twisting the words of Jesus and acting on their own self-righteousness certainly describes unbelievers. I've had numerous discussions with unbelievers who attend false religions and cults. So who do you believe are DESCRIBED as foolish and hear Jesus' words and DO NOT DO THEM? Believers or unbelievers?

So, how is one saved if no fruit is present? How is one saved if there is no root?
If there is no root, there is no faith and we are saved through faith, not works, yet we show our faith by our works.

If I ask you what if no fruit is present after one believes, you will probably say they didn't really believe in the first place. So tell me how one believes without fruit present.
James answers that question. In James 2:14 we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

You are saying it is faith + fruit which saves a man, which is no different than saying it is faith + works of charity. Use the rationality you have been so graciously given.
I never said it was faith + fruit (faith + works) which saves a man. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:
 
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JLB777

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(JUSTIFICATION). John 5:24 - “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, (present tense) and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."





But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.


Those who are "in Christ" and joined to Him, and are one spirit with Him, are joined to the Spirit of Life in Christ.


That is where eternal life is for us, in this life, while living in a body of sin.

In Christ = In the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.


As long as we are in Christ, we have eternal life in us: His Spirit.


If we are "in Him", the we must remain "in Him", for if we become separated from Him and the eternal life that is "in Him", then we are no longer joined to Him, being joined to the Spirit of Life that is "in Him".


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Oooops! There went OSAS.


Here is how we abide in Christ -


  • Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him

:oldthumbsup:


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB
 
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BNR32FAN

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Regardless, UNBELIEF is the root cause of both situations. Apart from the blood of Christ and the righteousness of God which is by faith, we would ALL be seen in the eyes of God as law breakers (Romans 3:23). Trying our best to clean up our act and produce as many works as possible is not the solution to our sin problem. Jesus Christ is the solution to our sin problem (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 4:12; Romans 3:22-28; 6:23 etc..).

You also confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. In Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands - descriptive of believers. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses - descriptive of unbelievers.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him (Matthew 7:21; John 6:40). The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

You continue to imply that man is saved through faith + obedience/works. That is not what the Bible teaches (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and good works which follow are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

That’s a very interesting twist of scripture but that’s not what Jesus said at all. Where is the word believe in chapter 7? The word believe is not mentioned anywhere in chapter 7. Chapter 7 is about obedience and devotion. A few things to consider believing is pretty easy it doesn’t require any kind of devotion or obedience. Believing doesn’t require repentance or works. That makes for a very wide gate to heaven. Believing and devoting yourself to God is more difficult making the gate more narrow.

““You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:13‬

There are more false Christians than true Christians. The false Christian doesn’t need to change their life or make any effort to be saved. They just believe Jesus died for their sins and all their sins are forgiven no matter what they do. That’s a HUGE GATE to heaven.

So what is the message of the next parable? The tree and it’s fruit.

““Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:15-20‬

Then after that is the true disciples.

““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬

Believing is not DOING. Repentance and producing fruit is doing. Part of what you said is true. Only a true believer repents and does good works. A person who doesn’t repent and do good works is not a true believer. There’s a difference between someone saying repentance and works are necessary for salvation and saying a person is saved by repentance and works. True faith produces repentance and fruit. If someone doesn’t repent or produce fruit they do not have a true faith. Their lack of repentance (being born again) and producing fruit (walking in the Spirit) is evidence that their faith is false. So just because repentance and fruit is necessary for salvation doesn’t mean we are saved by them. It is the true faith that produces these qualities that saves a person. The Greek word pistis (faith) does not only mean to believe it also means to have faithfulness, trustworthiness, and fidelity. These qualities have to do with devotion and obedience.
 
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FreeGrace2

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But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17
True. So why do you deny the truth of Eph 1:13,14 then?
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession
—to the praise of his glory.

The red words refute your opinions.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Again, true! So why do you reject the truth of Eph 1:13,14?

There are no verses about a new creation becoming old again, or a sealed believer becoming unsealed. All just opinions, and opinions that are in opposition to Scripture.

Those who are "in Christ" and joined to Him, and are one spirit with Him, are joined to the Spirit of Life in Christ.
And are given eternal life per John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13.

That is where eternal life is for us, in this life, while living in a body of sin.
OK, good, so you've finally repented of the unbiblical opinion that one only receives eternal life after they die physically.

In Christ = In the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
Yes, that's where eternal life exists.

As long as we are in Christ, we have eternal life in us: His Spirit.
Since Eph 1:14 plainly says the indwelling Holy Spirit (the seal) GUARANTEES our inheritance until the redemption of God's possession, your opinion that one can have this mark removed is blatantly false.

If we are "in Him", the we must remain "in Him", for if we become separated from Him and the eternal life that is "in Him", then we are no longer joined to Him, being joined to the Spirit of Life that is "in Him".
Eph 1:13,14 do not permit such unbiblical thinking.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
This isn't about the sealing with the Holy Spirit. In fact, the Holy Spirit wasn't given to His disciples until a "few days after" His ascension. Acts 1:5

Oooops! There went OSAS.
Uh, there went OSNAS, way out the door.

Here is how we abide in Christ -
  • Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him
:oldthumbsup:

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
Correct. And abiding is totally different than being sealed.

We are commanded to abide in Him. We are NEVER commanded to be sealed in Him.

But apparently you don't have enough discernment to grasp that clear fact.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I just couldn't pass this comment up:
There are more false Christians than true Christians.
Have you been counting?

The false Christian doesn’t need to change their life or make any effort to be saved.
This clearly demonstrates a failure to understand grace at all. There is NO EFFORT involved by man in order to be saved.

ALL the EFFORT was by Jesus Christ, who did EVERYTHING to save us.

They just believe Jesus died for their sins and all their sins are forgiven no matter what they do.
Simple question: how many sins did Jesus Christ die for on the cross?

Hint: Col 2:13

That’s a HUGE GATE to heaven.
Nope. Very many people reject the existence of God. That narrows the gate quite a bit.

And very many people want to "help" God out in their salvation. And that narrows the gate even further.

Believing is not DOING.
So very true. And the Bible ONLY speaks of believing to be saved and to have eternal life.

Repentance and producing fruit is doing.
For which the believer will be rewarded.
 
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JLB777

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This clearly demonstrates a failure to understand grace at all. There is NO EFFORT involved by man in order to be saved.

Only those who put forth the effort to obey the Gospel by repenting will be saved.


It’s called the obedience of faith.


JLB
 
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