Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

GodsGrace101

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So? Please explain the meaning of the present tense.

But never mind. I'll tell you, since you obviously don't know.

It means that the MOMENT one believes (that means when they believe IS the present in terms of the believer) they ARE saved.

But Arminians abuse the present tense and insist it means they MUST CONTINUE to believe in order to continue to be saved.

But, all the times 'believe' is in the aorist tense destroys that notion.

And our sealing is based on a past action (aorist tense) of believing which results in a guarantee of our inheritance until the day of redemption.

But you can't explain that, huh.


Except we don't find the words "we must..." in order to never perish.

That's what a condition looks like, which you seem oblivious to.


So, to you, there is no difference between a condition and a description.

Yep, you really do need a primer on the meaning of words in English.
We MUST CONTINUE to believe if we are to be saved at the END OF OUR LIFE.

Colossians 1:22-23
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel ...

IF we continue IN OUR FAITH, Jesus will present us holy and blameless before God.

1 Timothy 4:10
10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

There goes that present tense again for believers.
I could list verses all night on BELIEVING having to be present tense.

One believes...............he is saved and secure.
One does NOT believe...he is not saved and not secure.
 
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GodsGrace101

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If you and I are His sheep . Then verse 28 applies to us.

We have eternal life and will Never, no not ever perish.

Could you or I possibly perish? If your answer is yes. Then we cannot possibly be His sheep right now.
We are His sheep RIGHT NOW.
We are secure RIGHT NOW.
We have eternal life RIGHT NOW based on being HIS SHEEP.
Jesus supplies us with eternal life. HE IS THE LIFE. If we don't have Jesus we don't have the eternal spark of life.

What if we are NOT HIS SHEEP anymore because we become lost?

Are we still saved?
Are the lost saved?
Are those who do NOT BELIEVE in Jesus saved?
 
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Gr8Grace

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We MUST CONTINUE to believe if we are to be saved at the END OF OUR LIFE.

Colossians 1:22-23
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel ...

IF we continue IN OUR FAITH, Jesus will present us holy and blameless before God.


This is why you need to get back to the biblical reading of 1 Cor 3:15.

We are reconciled ,SAVED and will never perish. But if we don't continue in His doctrines(faith) we will have to be refined as if through fire to be presented blameless and holy. We can do it now, and work out our sanctification or have Him do at His Bema seat as we have SHAME.
 
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Gr8Grace

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We are His sheep RIGHT NOW.
We are secure RIGHT NOW.
We have eternal life RIGHT NOW based on being HIS SHEEP.
Jesus supplies us with eternal life. HE IS THE LIFE. If we don't have Jesus we don't have the eternal spark of life.

What if we are NOT HIS SHEEP anymore because we become lost?

Are we still saved?
Are the lost saved?
Are those who do NOT BELIEVE in Jesus saved?
Funny how you never brought up the FACT that we will NEVER perish.

If you think you can perish.........You can't call yourself His sheep. His Sheep NEVER, no not ever perish.
 
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GodsGrace101

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OK, please provide the exact words that indicate a condition to be met in v.27.

Can't wait.


John 10:27 JESUS SAID:
27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"

Jesus is telling us WHO are HIS sheep.
In order to be one of His sheep, you MUST be willing to adhere to these CONDITIONS:

1. Hear the voice of Jesus and obey it. To hear, in the Greek, as you must surely know, means to OBEY, TO HARKEN TO...not just to listen with the ear.

2. Jesus must know you. You must be a part of His Kingdom right here on earth, in THIS life. How do you become a member of the Kingdom? Try reading Mathew chapters 5 through 7 where Jesus speaks, ONLY in these 3 chapters, more about the Kingdom of God than about salvation in ALL of His teachings.

3. You MUST follow Jesus. Follow means to learn from Him, to respect Him, to trust Him, to do as He does which means to obey and mirror Him.

IF you can do the above 3 things, you will be one of Jesus' sheep

AND he will give you eternal life for as long as you follow those conditions.

Do you know about the covenants? You might not since you don't seem to understand the concept of CONDITIONS.
Study the Mosaic Covenant.
There is a condition to that covenant.
BTW, no covenant abolishes the previous one...
What happened to the Israelites in the desert because they did not obey God?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Funny how you never brought up the FACT that we will NEVER perish.

If you think you can perish.........You can't call yourself His sheep. His Sheep NEVER, no not ever perish.
Whatever you say Gr8Grace.
We'll find out when we get there.
We'll find out what God thinks of persons that teach that one could NOT BELIEVE in Jesus and still be saved.

That one could NOT OBEY God and still be saved.
 
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GodsGrace101

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This is why you need to get back to the biblical reading of 1 Cor 3:15.

We are reconciled ,SAVED and will never perish. But if we don't continue in His doctrines(faith) we will have to be refined as if through fire to be presented blameless and holy. We can do it now, and work out our sanctification or have Him do at His Bema seat as we have SHAME.
You get back to it.
I already understand it.
 
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Gr8Grace

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I could list verses all night on BELIEVING having to be present tense.

Yeah, you can. But what you cannot demonstrate is a verse that uses the present tense of believe that specifies a born-again Christian must continue to believe in order to remain saved.

You have no idea what the purpose clause is and why 'believe' is in the present tense.

The purpose of believing on the Son RIGHT NOW/PRESENT TENSE stands for any unbeliever that believes.

Acts16:31 AORIST tense........the moment the jailor/any unbeliever believes the PRESENT/ RIGHT NOW truth of the Gospel stands for them and they will be saved.
 
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Gr8Grace

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Whatever you say Gr8Grace.
We'll find out when we get there.
So. Exactly as I said at the beginning of this particular subject.

It seems clear that you don't understand that they are ALREADY His sheep in vs 27.

And I KNOW I'm getting there, I am His sheep. I will explain it to you IF you get there. You put question in your salvation, not me. Sad, you won't believe His word.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Yeah, you can. But what you cannot demonstrate is a verse that uses the present tense of believe that specifies a born-again Christian must continue to believe in order to remain saved.

You have no idea what the purpose clause is and why 'believe' is in the present tense.

The purpose of believing on the Son RIGHT NOW/PRESENT TENSE stands for any unbeliever that believes.

Acts16:31 AORIST tense........the moment the jailor/any unbeliever believes the PRESENT/ RIGHT NOW truth of the Gospel stands for them and they will be saved.
I don't demonstrate a verse that shows that we must CONTINUE to believe? Are you serious?

Did you read my posts no. 1121? 1125 is also interesting.
Would YOU have the answer to what happened to the Israelites that did not obey God?

As to the aorist tense. Please don't find any solace in that since you don't understand it. How do I know you don't understand it? Because I happen to know someone who taught theology and reads the O.T. in Hebrew and the N.T. in Greek, the ORIGINAL KOINE GREEK. He tells me the aorist tense is difficult to understand and to forget about it.

So should I listen to HIM, or some Greek lexicon, or YOU??

It's not necessary for anyone to understand greek to understand what God wants to say in the N.T. The translators did just fine on all the important matters and only theologians should be discussing WORDS.

How about YOU demonstrate a verse that clearly states that one could:
NOT BELIEVE
NOT OBEY
FALL AWAY
NOT CONTINUE
LOSE FAITH

And STILL be saved?

As FreeGrace would say...
I'm waiting...
and have been for a long time.
 
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GodsGrace101

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So. Exactly as I said at the beginning of this particular subject.

It seems clear that you don't understand that they are ALREADY His sheep in vs 27.

And I KNOW I'm getting there, I am His sheep. I will explain it to you IF you get there. You put question in your salvation, not me. Sad, you won't believe His word.
What's sad is YOU judging MY soul.
I do believe that's above your pay grade.
Why not leave that up to God?
 
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JLB777

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The word justified in James 2:21 is dikaióō which can also mean to show or exhibit one to be righteous. I think Abraham was justified long before offering Issac because he had obeyed God constantly. Offering Issac wasn’t the first time he obeyed God so I think the context being used in James 2 is that he was shown to be righteous.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

justified


G1344


Lemma:

δικαιόω


Transliteration:

dikaióō


Pronounce:

dik-ah-yo'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be


This is the general consensus among scholars.

It seems to be reasonable.

However that is a discussion for another time.

My point is the principle or law of faith that James is teaching, and not whether Abraham was justified before.


Faith without this action of obedience is dead, dormant, lifeless, inactive and incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is dead and lifeless, in active and incomplete; unable to function.​


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22


  • Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

Not good works
Not the works of the law
Not works that earn a wage


The work of obedience.


  • Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Perfect here means complete.

If faith does not have the corresponding action of obedience, it is incomplete; dormant, dead and unable to function and produce the intended divine result.

In this case of Abraham, it was justification.


That is what "by faith" means: God spoke and someone obeyed.


That's why it's called the obedience of faith.

The entire book of Romans is describing the obedience of faith, which is why it begins and ends with this principle. Paul calls this the law of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



That's the point I was making:


Faith without this action of obedience is dead, dormant, lifeless, inactive and incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is dead and lifeless, in active and incomplete; unable to function.




JLB
 
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JLB777

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This is DESCRIPTIVE of His mother and His brothers and is not descriptive of unbelievers.


That's exactly right.

His family are those who hear the word of God and do it.


Not hear the word of God and ignore it.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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Once again, the Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Why do you think that "believe" and "faith" result in the same end -- salvation/eternal life? (John 3:18; Acts 16:31; Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe/have faith in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you.



Again faith is a noun.


If you have faith for salvation, then you have the substance of the salvation you are hoping for.


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1



The salvation you are hoping for, will be received at the end of your faith; as an end result of your faith.


receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9


All of your bible commentary will not make faith a verb, nor will it change the definition of what faith is, and how faith works.


Faith works by obedience.


Those who obey the Gospel are saved.


That's why it's called the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26




JLB
 
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JLB777

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You make it sound like our faith is dead UNTIL we produce obedience/works


Not so.


We have to obey what we heard from God, which is how we received faith, in order for the faith we received to be activated to produce the intended divine result.


Faith without this action of obedience is dead, dormant, lifeless, inactive and incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is dead and lifeless, in active and incomplete; unable to function.



In Abraham's case it was righteousness, [justification] -


  • And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8

This is where Abraham was first justified by faith [a type of salvation], when he first obeyed God and was declared righteous, just like we are we we are first saved by faith.


Abraham choose to believe God, therefore he obeyed God, and left his old life to follow the Lord.
See Genesis 12


Abraham was justified several more times after this as well.




JLB
 
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Gr8Grace

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What's sad is YOU judging MY soul.
I do believe that's above your pay grade.
Why not leave that up to God?
I am not judging your soul. I view you as saved and will never perish.It is sad you don't. Your theology puts YOUR soul up for possible judgement and condemnation........not the bibles truth.
 
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JLB777

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Whatever.

If that were true, why the commands to "continue in the faith", all without warnings of loss of salvation?


Except you continue to reject all the verses that teach that those who believe POSSESS eternal life. That means they possess it WHEN they believe.

You've failed to prove otherwise.


Jesus said His sheep (believers) shall never, no, not ever, perish.

Why do you trample on what the Lord Jesus said?


His sheep cannot be lost in the sense of unsaved.

But you don't believe what Jesus says about this, so I don't expect you to grasp this.


Still avoiding the question?


I wonder why.


Does one of His sheep who becomes lost need to be saved?



Yes or No.


The answer of course is the proverbial nail in the coffin of OSAS, so we all know you are not going to be honest and answer the question truthfully. LOL!!!


The simple honest answer is yes: Lost sheep need to be saved.


Lost sheep need to repent, or they will remain lost.




JLB
 
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Danthemailman

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Not so.

We have to obey what we heard from God, which is how we received faith, in order for the faith we received to be activated to produce the intended divine result.

Faith without this action of obedience is dead, dormant, lifeless, inactive and incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is dead and lifeless, in active and incomplete; unable to function.

In Abraham's case it was righteousness, [justification] -
So according to you, faith is dead UNTIL it produces action/obedience/works and then faith comes to life and saves us. It's obvious that you are teaching justification/salvation by faith AND WORKS. Just man up and admit it. o_O

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8
*Notice, "justify the Gentiles by faith" not faith and works. The "good news" was preached to Abraham that "in him all the nations will be blessed." The good news was not salvation by works.

This is where Abraham was first justified by faith [a type of salvation], when he first obeyed God and was declared righteous, just like we are we we are first saved by faith.

Abraham choose to believe God, therefore he obeyed God, and left his old life to follow the Lord.
See Genesis 12

Abraham was justified several more times after this as well.
"First" justified by faith [a type of salvation?] and justified several more times after this as well? Talk about mixed up. :doh:

Abraham obeyed God and left his home in Genesis 12, but that is not the end of the story. It was not until Genesis 15:5 when God told Abraham to count the stars if he is able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousnes. NOTHING is mentioned about Abraham first being justified in Genesis 12 when he left his home or being justified several more times after that.

You need to also keep in mind that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). *Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. :)
 
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GodsGrace101

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So according to you, faith is dead UNTIL it produces action/obedience/works and then faith comes to life and saves us. It's obvious that you are teaching justification/salvation by faith AND WORKS. Just man up and admit it. o_O

*Notice, "justify the Gentiles by faith" not faith and works. The "good news" was preached to Abraham that "in him all the nations will be blessed." The good news was not salvation by works.

"First" justified by faith [a type of salvation?] and justified several more times after this as well? Talk about mixed up. :doh:

Abraham obeyed God and left his home in Genesis 12, but that is not the end of the story. It was not until Genesis 15:5 when God told Abraham to count the stars if he is able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousnes. NOTHING is mentioned about Abraham first being justified in Genesis 12 when he left his home or being justified several more times after that.

You need to also keep in mind that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). *Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. :)
Hi MMD
I owe you a reply.
Too busy right now.

BUT, as to your above post, I just want to say that your last sentence is correct and it's called SANCTIFICATION.

Justification is what you're talking about.
Sanctification is faith in action. Faith is both a noun and a verb.

We've been through this, haven't we?
Gotta go.
 
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