SDA

[Karola]

By the word of GOD
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

It isn't a law written in ink for the believer, but one written by the Spirit of God on tablets of human hearts(2Cor3:3)

 

[Karola]

Is "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." written in your heart?

Every word that God has ever stated is not in my heart no, as it is not in yours either

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Every word that God has ever stated is not in my heart no, as it is not in yours either

Then I guess we have to rely on the "ink" in the Holy Bible

 

[Karola]

Then I guess we have to rely on the "ink" in the Holy Bible

That contradicts the bible concerning where the law is for the believer. God gave/spoke 613 laws under the old covenant, Christians are not expected to follow all of them under the new covenant. Why not look at it from Paul's point of view
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

That's much simpler isn't it

 

[bekkilyn]

God declared His day--as He told Adam and Eve--don't eat of that tree--it was plain enough--the 4th is plain enough--it is clearly stated.

Please point out the verse in scripture where God clearly and specifically commanded Adam and Eve to observe a sabbath day. I cam find where he commanded them not to eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and evil...that's a clear commandment. Anyone can find it. No such commandment for a sabbath day.

Seems highly unlikely for God to get all riled up about a piece of fruit. He said don't do it--they did. He said worship me this day--enough said. Cain didn't think it was a big deal to worship God his own way either.

God didn't get riled up about a piece of fruit. If he hadn't put anything like that in the garden, then Adam and Eve would have no occasion to exercise their free will and make a choice whether or not to serve God and remain in the garden without sin. It could have been anything, but God chose a tree with fruit.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

There is no commandment there for humans to observe a sabbath day. You may also notice that there is no evening and morning to complete that day. His work was finished on the sixth day and his seventh day is still ongoing, just like the rest we have in Jesus is still ongoing.

There were no Jews in the Garden of Eden when He established it.

He never commanded anyone in the garden to ritually observe a sabbath. Their life in the garden was an ongoing sabbath. The ritual weekly sabbath was established as a sign of the covenant to the Israelites at Sinai (and it specifically says there in scripture that the covenant was NOT with their ancestors) and was to temporarily last for *their* generations (not Gentiles) until old heaven and earth (Jerusalem) passed away. Which it did in AD 70 when Jerusalem and their Temple was destroyed. Now we await the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem.

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: What do you think He meant by that seeing as the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath?

Because Jesus recognized that the Pharisees were abusing it. The sabbath was intended to be a benefit to the Israelites and their ancestors, not a burden.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
He did--it's called the 4th commandment.

The fourth commandment TO the Israelites at Sinai and their descendents. Not to Gentiles. Not to anyone else.

The apostles didn't have to shout it out--they lived it as did Jesus---They were Jews! There was almost a civil war when they said circumcision was no longer needed---had that been the case with the Sabbath, another very Sacred thing to all of them--WWW 1 would have erupted. But since nobody said such aa thing--why would it need to be mentioned?

Because maybe there were Gentiles, lots and lots of them once Paul came around, becoming converted from paganism to The Way that would have had no clue whatsoever about a sabbath, having never had to observe a sabbath or any other Jewish rituals or laws. And yet it's not emphasized ANYWHERE in the new testament because it has never applied to Gentiles and Gentiles are not bound by old covenant law and never have been.

The mark of the beast has to do with worship--obviously, since it says "and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Since it is about worshiping what is obviously not God--which in itself is breaking another commandment--"thou shalt have no other gods before me" -- why would you think this has anything to do with covenant's?

To interpret it as the specific day you decide to worship God though is extremely far-fetched and requires a lot of very imaginative ways of combining cherry-picked scripture verses together to come to such a conclusion.

No, the apostles did not meet on the 1st day of the week to worship on Sunday. There is not one verse that states they worshiped on that day.

Yes, they did, and it is all over the new testament what day of the week followers of The Way were meeting on, and the day of Christ's resurrection, and the day of Pentacost, etc.

he reason RCC can claim they changed the day is because they did.

No they didn't. The old covenant seventh day sabbath is still Saturday.

The disciples did not, nor did Jesus. Name one verse that states The first day if the week will now be the new Sabbath in honor of my resurrection?

There is no verse because you are misinterpreting why most Christians meet on the first day of the week. It has nothing to do with observing a sabbath and everything to do with celebrating Christ's resurrection. Christians aren't moving the sabbath from one day to another because there is no requirement to observe a ritual weekly sabbath under the new covenant, so Christians would not be observing a sabbath on *any* day. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that Christians are always observing a sabbath because we are resting in Jesus day by day as we walk with him.

Anything that God made Holy, can only be made unholy by Him. He wrote it, Jesus would have clearly said He changed it. Never did.

Old covenant gone. All the jots and tittles of old heaven and earth have passed. Jesus did say this.
The sabbath does still exist though...in HIM.

As to why non-Catholics are wanting this--because they follow tradition instead of the plain it is written. Doesn't matter to them, t's a day off. I personally don't care what day of the week the Sabbath day is--could be Tuesday for all I care---who it does matter to, and who said it is this day only---is God--And Him I don't think I will argue with about it. He made it Holy--that is enough for me.

If you want to observe a physical sabbath day, then that's your choice. Many Christians do observe a sabbath day of rest because it is healthy. It still acts as a means of grace for growing in spiritual maturity and deepening our relationship with God. It's just no longer a ritual commandment under law.

It has all the legal authority of the governments of those countries. And by government decree---it affects every single citizen of those countries. It is the law of the land.

I am personally against laws that limit people's religious freedom, even for non-Christians, and even for religions Christians are naturally opposed to. If the government tried to make observing a seventh day sabbath illegal, I would be opposed to that law.

It is not SDA that define Christianity--it is the RCC by law defining Christianity. Denominational narcissism---always has been.

Then there is no need to allow them to define it for you, but it might also be a good idea to recognize they don't define it for the rest of us either. I know in my own denomination, there would be a mass exodus if our conference were to force us under the rule of a pope or the papacy, and I would be one of them. Not that I believe it would happen because we have a global democratic conference, but I suppose if the Evangelicals are right and the anti-Christ turns out to be a person who will set up a one world government and one world religion, then true believers would be called out of that system.

Yep--they just did not change the commandment of God.
It will be--it is their aim, always has been. There have been several Protestant churches that have gone back to the RCC-- also in the UK--it is what the ecumenical movement is all about--unity--but under the Pope.

Why allow yourselves to be defined by the RCC? Who cares what they say if you're not a part of their organization? Catholics who believe that there will be in any way wide-scale unity with them while there is a papacy or pope in existence are very deceived, and even then there is all the stuff with Mary and the saints and confession to other human beings, statues and religious icons everywhere, etc. Many protestants are about as anti-pope (*any* pope) as one can get. In fact, people in my region will leave their churches if they even have the appearance of being in any way Catholic.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

That contradicts the bible concerning where the law is for the believer. God gave/spoke 613 laws in the OT, Christians are not expected to follow all of them under the new covenant. Why not look at it from Paul's point of view
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

That's much simpler isn't it

Why do you quote the "ink" of Paul but not accept the "ink" of GOD'S law?

 

[Karola]

Why do you quote the "ink" of Paul but not accept the "ink" of GOD'S law?

Because Paul was given his message by Christ himself to preach, and he said for the believer it is not a law written in ink but by the spirit of the living God on the heart. This is the same as the prophecy given in Jeremiah, and twice repeated in Hebrews:
I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

 

[bekkilyn]

It means sin became more visible -- it was seen more fully as the Spirit expanded on the law. Again, why are sinful passions aroused in those who are led by the Spirit--because we have a sinful nature through Jesus Christ is the only way to overcome.

Perhaps they were not being led by the Spirit. What are their fruits? Are they producing any fruit of the Spirit? (Love, joy, peace, kindness, etc.) Someone who is led by the Spirit should be producing fruit of the Spirit in some way. If they aren't then they are more susceptible to their own sinful natures.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Because Paul was given his message by Christ himself to preach, and he said for the believer it is not a law written in ink but by the spirit of the living God on the heart. This is the same as the prophecy given in Jeremiah, and twice repeated in Hebrews:
I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

Is
The 10 Commandments List, Short Form*

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

written in your heart?

 

[bekkilyn]

This is the condemnation
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Therefore, there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, as I stated.

My quote:
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the
flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh;
for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that
you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law (Galatians 5:16-18)

This is being under the law

It says right there in the verse, plain as day, "If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."

One needs an awful lot of creativity to turn not being under the law into being under the law.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

What standard are we to be judged by?

Jesus is both our mediator as well as our judge, and has proclaimed us to be "not guilty", then there is no need to fear any judgment. We are made righteous through his righteousness and are not under the law of sin and death to be judged by it.

I know that SDA has a belief that once Jesus has completed his work in the heavenly temple they believe he is currently in, then all remaining people will need to be without sin through their own efforts since Jesus is no longer available to be their mediator, but I disagree. Like Paul, I am "persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I know that SDA ... then all remaining people will need to be without sin through their own efforts

You cannot know this as it is not true. It appears that you will believe what ever you are told or read. If you have proof of this please provide it.

You have attacked my faith by repeating a lie.
Attack that is the methodology of Satan.

We are Saved by the Grace of JESUS not through our own efforts at any time. That is the teaching of Seventh-day-Adventists

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Like Paul, I am "persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[bekkilyn]

You cannot know this as it is not true. It appears that you will believe what ever you are told or read. If you have proof of this please provide it.

You have attacked my faith by repeating a lie.
Attack that is the methodology of Satan.

We are Saved by the Grace of JESUS not through our own efforts at any time. That is the teaching of Seventh-day-Adventists

I have not attacked your faith by stating what is true to your doctrine.

It comes from your very own prophet, Ellen White.

First, read The Great Controversy, p.425 "Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator"

Second, read Testimonies for the Church, vol. 2, p. 191 "When Jesus ceases to plead for man, the cases of all are forever decided. This is the time of reckoning with His servants"

Thirdly, I learned of this doctrine on several occasions while attending SDA prophecy/evangelistic series as well as going to SDA services and bible studies in person.

How much more proof do you need?

Maybe you might read up on your own doctrines before accusing others of lying and Satan.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And note just who said it...Jesus. He is talking about *his* commandments, not the ten commandments. Jesus' commandments are to believe (trust) in him and to love each other as he loved us. To assume Jesus means the old covenant ten commandments is to read in something that simply isn't there.

 

[Karola]

Is
The 10 Commandments List, Short Form*

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

written in your heart?

The fourth one in relation to a Saturday sabbath is not. And you only decided you should follow it because it is written in ink, that is not where the law is for the believer

 

[Karola]

Perhaps they were not being led by the Spirit. What are their fruits? Are they producing any fruit of the Spirit? (Love, joy, peace, kindness, etc.) Someone who is led by the Spirit should be producing fruit of the Spirit in some way. If they aren't then they are more susceptible to their own sinful natures.

Sinfull passions are not aroused in those led by the Spirit, Rom7:5 does not refer to the new covenant. It refers to sinfull passions being aroused in people by the law when they live under it. Paul gave an example of this in rom7:8, he is speaking of his life as a pharisee

 

[BobRyan]

Is
The 10 Commandments List, Short Form*

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

written in your heart?

The fourth one in relation to a Saturday sabbath is not.

I like it when things are so clearly spelled out

 

[BobRyan]

You see, you are not like LGW and bobryan(I assume from what you write). They believe you are not under the condemnation of the law so long as you do not break it. You are not justified by the law but can only be in a justified state if you do not break the law. Your sins and lawless deeds will only be remembered no more providing you do not break the law.

Are you quoting someone? ... "you" maybe?

 

[Karola]

Are you quoting someone? ... "you" maybe?

Do you believe a Christian remains in a justified state if they fail to obey the law?
Are they not condemned by the law if they break it?

 

[BobRyan]

If the law is written on your heart as you say through the Holy Spirit He will also lead you to keep the Sabbath holy.

Though the old testiment speaks of the prohibitation of homosexuality our Holy Spirit still convicts the heart to obstain.

Perfect!. And there you have it.

The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible - and He is not at War with His own Word - the Word of God.

Even in the New Testament "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

The LAW that has "Honor your father and mother" as the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

The where if you "break one you break them all" James 2

The law that Jeremiah and his readers would have known about when he wrote that the NEW Covenant includes "The LAW written on the heart" Jer 31:31-33 (a definition for the New Covenant that remains unchanged in the New Testament Hebrews 8:6-12)

The Law that includes the very same Sabbath as the one in Isaiah 66:23 where we are told that for all eternity after the cross, in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to bow down"

The Law where even gentiles in the OT are specifically singled out for keeping the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:5-8

Sabbath that is "made for mankind" Mark 2:27 according to Christ Himself.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you believe a Christian remains in a justified state if they fail to obey the law?
Are they not condemned by the law if they break it?

A Christian does not become lost each time they sin. That is my position and I have never stated it any other way.

"These things I write to you that you sin NOT - but if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1

A Christian may fall - repent and stand again - never having lost salvation -- continuing on in the new creation, new heart, Spirit filled walk - though having repentance for sins truly committed.

But if that person "chooses rebellion" as their "I don't care what God says - I do what I FEEL like doing no matter what the Word of God says to the contrary" they have a problem -- and it is the path that leads to the loss of salvation.